Metrostars vs. DC United 9-12-02

[Claymore]

I've seen at least three howlers from Gus this season, one of which was an A-League match.

The point had been well made that when we had foreign refs do MLS games, fans bitched about the number of cards thrown around (DC vs. ?, Hugh Dallas in the middle). Dissent is definitely a problem, and I think that's down to the courage of the ref; you never saw ANY player give Paul Tamberino that kind of crap without getting a stern "don't f-- with me" from Paul, and that usually quieted things down.

That said, you knew this game was going to be a rough one. But what in the world was Gus thinking on that drop ball late in the game? It was that kind of indecisiveness througout the game that put the blood in the water.

[JAnderson14]

Originally posted by Dave216J
After watching a tape of last night's game, what struck me was not the major decisions as much as the minor ones. Through the first half, the ref never imposed himself on the game--he sacrificed it so that it could continue to run smoothly without little fouls being called. Instead of running smoothly, this just encouraged players to step up to bigger fouls. At that point, he tried to regain control with some cards, but as many have noted, he then was not willing to give penalties/second yellows/straight reds, so nobody really paid attention.
A good referee doesn't impose himself on the game. The problem was that the players last night took advantage of that rather than showing respect for it.

Originally posted by Claymore
That said, you knew this game was going to be a rough one. But what in the world was Gus thinking on that drop ball late in the game? It was that kind of indecisiveness througout the game that put the blood in the water.
Agreed.

He was pretty poor last night, but it was in part due to the game. It's two rivals, fighting for their lives, so naturally it wasn't going to be the prettiest thing. It had more the tone of a Rangers-Celtic match, in that the players willingly traded in high quality play for chippiness. St. Silva could have done a better job, but he could have been worse too.

Sending off Reyes and Mathis over that wall would have been ridiculous though. Both players needed stern warnings (which they didn't get), but not second yellows.

[QuakeAttack]

This makes two matches in a row. He did the Quakes vs. Crew match last week. It's lucky Donovan still has two legs to walk on. Yes, he was equally terrible for both teams. He let the game get out of control.

My problem with the MLS referees has been consistancy. Players, coaches, and fans don't know whether a foul should be a yellow or red card offense.

In past years, I payed little attention about people whining about the referees. Too easy and too selective. However, this year has changed my mind. The league needs to resolve this issue...

[FlashMan]

Originally posted by BallStateMiddie
Have you even watched European soccer? La Liga in particular? The Italian league is ridiculous. Last night might have been bad, but give me a break, DC's fighting for their lives, and the Metros (while I'll give you that they're probably the worst behaved team in the league) are fighting to stay in the playoffs and even get home field. Overall I completely disagree with this statement. So Diallo flopped, every La Liga game I've seen in the last couple years has had at least 4-5 of these. Mathis yelling at the ref? That's a world-wide problem, even at the Cup everybody was raising H about it.

Please don't belittle me as it only belittles yourself. I watch lots of Euro soccer, though it's only through FSW and Champions League, so in the last two years I haven't seen La Liga (not since it used to be on ESPN2). I just find other league players to "generally" (notice I used the word twice in my original post) to be better behaved. Maybe it's different in La Liga though I don't remember a lot of petulant behavior from a few years back, but I could easily be wrong. I just find MLS players to be "angrier" than your average footballer - maybe due to lower wages, small crowds, their soccer careers to always be on the line since there are so few 1st division teams and hence available spots - I have no idea why they seem so angry to me. They're just pissed off all the time and it makes it very hard - IMHO - for the refs to keep control in many a MLS game. Obviously it's not EVERY game and I've certainly seen Euro games get out of control as well, but to me, that's more because of the oft-Keane-like behavior than anything else. Maybe if FSW is truly going to show La Liga this year and I get to watch it again, I'll change my mind about this.

Anyway, I'm no ref and it's just my opinion, as stupid as you obviously think it is.

[BallStateMiddie]

Originally posted by Emile

... I do feel though, that the bitching and persistent fouling that Flash mentioned is a detriment to the quality of the games. I haven't seen as many games this year as in past years, but that's my opinion - yours to take, leave or have fly over your head.
...I'm not really arguing over this. I agree that something must be done about the persistent fouling, but moreso the persistent "insubordination" if you can call it that. My only problem is with the people around here that neglect the fact that this is a worldwide problem. Look at the Ecuadorian chode who's under investigation right now. The Italians have a real case on their hands, if you ask me. At the WC, it seemed like almost every ref was getting blasted, and rightfully so. Like someone else said, until ref's get the money they deserve, or we find a way to clone Collina, it's gonna be the same problem. Just don't imply that it's MLS' alone.

[Alberto]

Players aren't stupid. They will seek every advantage they can take. If the referee gives up his authority and responsibility, you have last night. Agreed it makes it more difficult to referee when players are conditioned through their experience to have a go at each other and the referee. However, I place the blame primarily on MLS and to a lesser extent on the referees for allowing these actions to go either unnoticed or unpunished.

When the MLS is serious about enforcing the LOTG and disciplining players then you will see an end to the nonsense. However, the league apparently feels it's more important for the stars to play regardless of their actions on the field. Clearly, this is not just an MLS phenomena, it happens to greater and lesser extent in all of the worlds top leagues.

[Alberto]

Originally posted by FlashMan


Please don't belittle me as it only belittles yourself. I watch lots of Euro soccer, though it's only through FSW and Champions League, so in the last two years I haven't seen La Liga (not since it used to be on ESPN2). I just find other league players to "generally" (notice I used the word twice in my original post) to be better behaved. Maybe it's different in La Liga though I don't remember a lot of petulant behavior from a few years back, but I could easily be wrong. I just find MLS players to be "angrier" than your average footballer - maybe due to lower wages, small crowds, their soccer careers to always be on the line since there are so few 1st division teams and hence available spots - I have no idea why they seem so angry to me. They're just pissed off all the time and it makes it very hard - IMHO - for the refs to keep control in many a MLS game. Obviously it's not EVERY game and I've certainly seen Euro games get out of control as well, but to me, that's more because of the oft-Keane-like behavior than anything else. Maybe if FSW is truly going to show La Liga this year and I get to watch it again, I'll change my mind about this.

Anyway, I'm no ref and it's just my opinion, as stupid as you obviously think it is.

England and Italy have the most players that get in the referees face. La Liga has better behaved players as does Germany. They still complain, but not to the extent they do in the EPL and Serie A.

[Greyhnd00]

A referee shouldnt impose himself until the players make him.....

I didnt realize the guy in the center was running this match.....I thought the white haired far side AR was in charge........Never seen someone wave thier flag so much and spend so much time on the field.

[Alberto]

Originally posted by Greyhnd00
A referee shouldnt impose himself until the players make him.....

I didnt realize the guy in the center was running this match.....I thought the white haired far side AR was in charge........Never seen someone wave thier flag so much and spend so much time on the field.

Chip Reed.

[IASocFan]

Originally posted by Greyhnd00
A referee shouldnt impose himself until the players make him.....

I didnt realize the guy in the center was running this match.....I thought the white haired far side AR was in charge........Never seen someone wave thier flag so much and spend so much time on the field.

Good points. The ref isn't needed until the players require it. There should have been more control over the restarts. I was impressed by the AR. Thought he did what he needed to do, and re-assumed the proper positioning.

[GlennAA11]

Originally posted by IASocFan


Good points. The ref isn't needed until the players require it. There should have been more control over the restarts. I was impressed by the AR. Thought he did what he needed to do, and re-assumed the proper positioning.

That's interesting, because I had the exact opposite reaction. I thought he was spending so much time calling fouls and managing walls that he was neglecting his other responsibilities. And it also makes the guy in the middle seem even less in control of the match.

Frankly I don't remember enough specifics about that game to make too many comments. But he did call something like 50 fouls, so it's not like he just let everything go. Being a DC fan I felt like all of the 50-50 calls went to NJ's favor which was probably frustrating to the DC players as well. Playing on that crappy field didn't help since there really couldn't be much flow to the game.

Certainly he needed to do what was necessary to keep things under control and failed to do so. And of all the times I have seen him this season I can only think of maybe 1 game where I thought he did a good job. Thrusday might have been his worst, but it wasn't anything that hasn't happened in his other matches.

Tonight's match by contrast saw Kevin Stott handing out the cards and calling things tight enough. It helped that Reyes and Williams were out for DC since they are two of the bigger instigators. In addition to two send offs there were yellows for encroaching, diving, and dissent. I also think the field conditions helped quite a bit as well. The match was competitive but didn't have the same nastiness as Thursday's game.
I think the league is in a weird spot. If you have the by the book refs like Rich Grady and Ricardo Valenzuela out there they get in trouble for being too strict. Then you have guys like Corrie and Terry who seem to be the other polar opposite end of the spectrum. It is a shame they can't seem to find a bigger pool of happy mediums.