Pros Developing Pros

[Nutmeg]

One of the consistent themes that has reappeared on Big Soccer and throughout US Soccer circles ever since I have been associated with the American game is the need to bring our player development systems in-line with the rest of the world. "Pros Developing Pros" has become the mantra of this movement, which essentially clamors for young American soccer stars to get out of high school and college soccer and into professional environments as quickly as possible.


If we all had a dollar for every time somebody posted here or elsewhere that college soccer is ruining American soccer players, we wouldn’t need Uncle Phil. We could collectively fund MLS player development ourselves. Also a frequent target of derision is the USSF and their Bradenton strategy, elite club teams who pander to the dollars of suburban youth while ignoring the mythical untapped potential of inner-city athletes, and of course MLS itself for not putting resources into reserve teams to develop future stars.



I’ve got one word for all of you people. Brian Ching.



When Brian sweetly finished Landon Donovan’s lay off in the right upper 90 to tie Jamaica, a whole segmented system was vindicated to some degree. College soccer could take pride that one of its lesser-known institutions, Gonzaga, had helped to develop a legitimate starting candidate for one of the world’s top 15 national teams. The A-league’s Seattle Sounders, with whom Ching played all of 2002, could say the same. The Spokane Shadow of the USL league could take pride in their piece of developing a player who will be a key piece in the US’ bid for 2006 World Cup Qualifying. And in Honolulu, Hawaii, Kamehameha High School has to be proud of their work in bringing the mainland a workhorse who is among the MLS scoring leaders and a player who the best player in the history of US Soccer, Donovan, calls "the perfect partner."




Don’t get me wrong. A big part of me wants to see more players introduced to a top-flight professional development system at a young age. I’d love to have mini-Ajax systems all over the country. I truly believe that if we went further in that direction, in time the US would be one of the world’s soccer superpowers.


But there is another part of me that appreciates the fractioned, overly politicized system that we are stuck with now. When Ching scored, one of the first questions that popped into my head was, "If Brian Ching was Brazilian, would he ever have gotten that opportunity?" I don’t believe he would.

I kind of like where soccer is at in the United States right now – a second-tier sport that for the most part continues to fly under the radar of the nation’s general sports populace. When I contrast the attitudes I see of young players in the NBA with the group of players that got the USA to the 2002 World Cup quarterfinals, I am extremely grateful for soccer’s current status in America.



Like almost everybody who has been associated with soccer in Portland, Oregon in the past 30 years, I have been influenced by Clive Charles. Charles was one of college soccer’s great personalities. He was a man who cared deeply about the people he worked with, to the extent that he often seemed to put the success of his people in front of the success of his soccer teams.

If soccer were followed as passionately as college football or basketball – if every move of every coach was tracked as closely as those of Bobby Bowden or Mike Krzyzewski – I don’t think Charles would have lasted long. Fans would have expected the program to produce titles and championships even if it meant producing lesser individuals. You can go down the list of great NCAA soccer coaches, and almost every one of them has had a similar passion for developing great people. Bruce Arena, Jerry Yeagley, Sigi Schmidt, and so on all have turned out well-rounded people who also happen to be soccer players.



I sometimes question the motives, humanity, or even the sanity of those who would like to see institutions like college soccer disappear completely from the US player development process. I mean, really, is there a better atmosphere for fostering the maturation process than a cinder-blocked 8x12 dorm room and a beer bong? For every Wayne Rooney developed in England, or Ronaldinho produced in Brazil, or Carlos Tevez in Argentina, there are literally thousands of kids who are spit out of the cycle and thrown on the street with little to no real-world coping skills. Had Brian Ching never made it to the US or even Earthquakes, the US developmental process would have spat him out with a 4 year degree from a great university. Ruthless bastards.



So go on. March underneath the "Pros Developing Pros" banner. I see your point. I feel the same passion. I want the US to hoist the ugliest trophy in sports someday, hopefully in my lifetime. But if it ever comes a time where the US lifting the World Cup trophy means that we have to sacrifice building quality, well-rounded, well-educated people in the process, then no thanks. I’ll take being #10 in the FIFA rankings and people like Brian Ching anytime.

[Chicago1871]

How are you drunk this early? ;)

[JohnR]

Great post.

Great rhetoric, too. The Next Level wrote a somewhat similar missive a year ago and got crapped on, big time. Damn fool forgot to wrap himself in the red, white, and blue.

[smith07]

exceptions prove rules

[Eliezar]

I really don't see any of your point.

There are stories like this in other countries too about the player that was playing for the local 4th/5th division team and supporting themselves by working a real job and blossoms into a 1st division player in their mid20s. There was even a New Zealand international that first played in a U18 coed league when he was 17 as the rumors go.

Having multiple systems to identify players as well as allow players to develop is good, but I think we do want the players in the most competitive envirenment as early as possible. We've seen far too many players with awesome potential actually fade between 16 and 22 because they either were too physically strong compared to their average opponent so they did not develop the skills to go along with their size/speed or too skilled, but not facing stiff enough competition to push their skills to the next level in quickness and positioning. A great example of this would be Johnny Torres.

Anyway, I've posted about the number of great inner city kids that pass through Houston and it is a lot. Some get invited to play for Mexican pro teams. Some become members of El Salvador's national team. Some were significantly better than players that end up playing in MLS. They aren't getting developed by college ball nor by club ball nor by "pros developing pros" but they are there.

[Eliezar]

BTW I played with Chris Davis directly before he went over to play in Germany. His story is an interesting one. First, he couldn't get a tryout with an MLS team so he goes and plays a few seasons in the German 3rd division where the newspapers called him the "American Rocket". Second he was 5'2 and skinny until he hit 18 and then he grew 6 inches and became faster than fast. He grew late physically and so missed out on the club opportunities as well as the college opportunities. Didn't stop him from putting up a hat trick against Incarnate Word when we played them though. 8)

There are lots of players like this I'm sure and I don't know who is finding them. Chris probably would have been able to make it on the MLS stage because of the reliance on complete technique until he was 18 and then the sudden emergence of tremendous speed and decent size.

[Brownswan]

Well, it''s a big country. There's more than one road to professional soccer, but there's still only one way to Carnegie Hall: practice, practice, practice. :)
Actually, that's true of soccer, too, the only questions are how and where to continue the practice. Practicing among professionals should lead to better results in a narrower time frame at a younger age.

But if a player can step out of college ready for a pro career at age 22, terrific. Since the number of men's college teams is dwindling, the question of whether or not to pursue soccer in college may be largely -- no pun intended -- academic.

[spot]

I kind of like where soccer is at in the United States right now – a second-tier sport that for the most part continues to fly under the radar of the nation’s general sports populace. When I contrast the attitudes I see of young players in the NBA with the group of players that got the USA to the 2002 World Cup quarterfinals, I am extremely grateful for soccer’s current status in America.[/left]

I completely agree with this. I have a small fear that we are so hot on growing soccer that we're failing to enjoy the scenery along the way. If soccer really grows to where we're among the elites, I'm certain that these boards will be filled with people like me lamenting the state of the game and the human face it has now.

On the PDP thing... I remain unconvinced that it will ever truly happen here. Sending a kid to a pro team in the US would take a leap of faith from parents and a huge cultural change. Education remains a better guarantee. As much as I'd love to see my son grow into a world class soccer player, I'll continue to put my trust in education. JOB is our one guy who went to Ajax, and I'd call him a success story. I'd like to know how many invites US kids get to those places, and how many are simply turned down. PDP will probably happen at some level, but it'll remain but one avenue among many. The great attraction of the PDP is it seems like a silver bullet, but it really isn't. The Europeans turn out some fine players, but other countries still seem to develop players in the alleys and empty lots. The key, as Brownswan said, is practice, practice, practice. Whether by professional association or love of the game kids just need time on the ball.

On college. I don't really like the college game, but I don't think it's killing the game. I would like to see some changes, and have had hopes that a group of schools would step outside the NCAA and form their own association that corrects many of the problems with the current game. It'd be nice if college soccer were more like college hockey. Fewer teams, and better concentration of talent. It'll probably never happen. The NCAA is to strong.

[DoctorD]

Soccer is not unAmerican. But asking a 10 or 11 year old kid to choose to be a doctor, bricklayer, or soccer player for the rest of his life is unAmerican.

[FCDallas96]

One of the consistent themes that has reappeared on Big Soccer and throughout US Soccer circles ever since I have been associated with the American game is the need to bring our player development systems in-line with the rest of the world. "Pros Developing Pros" has become the mantra of this movement, which essentially clamors for young American soccer stars to get out of high school and college soccer and into professional environments as quickly as possible.


If we all had a dollar for every time somebody posted here or elsewhere that college soccer is ruining American soccer players, we wouldn’t need Uncle Phil. We could collectively fund MLS player development ourselves. Also a frequent target of derision is the USSF and their Bradenton strategy, elite club teams who pander to the dollars of suburban youth while ignoring the mythical untapped potential of inner-city athletes, and of course MLS itself for not putting resources into reserve teams to develop future stars.



I’ve got one word for all of you people. Brian Ching.



When Brian sweetly finished Landon Donovan’s lay off in the right upper 90 to tie Jamaica, a whole segmented system was vindicated to some degree. College soccer could take pride that one of its lesser-known institutions, Gonzaga, had helped to develop a legitimate starting candidate for one of the world’s top 15 national teams. The A-league’s Seattle Sounders, with whom Ching played all of 2002, could say the same. The Spokane Shadow of the USL league could take pride in their piece of developing a player who will be a key piece in the US’ bid for 2006 World Cup Qualifying. And in Honolulu, Hawaii, Kamehameha High School has to be proud of their work in bringing the mainland a workhorse who is among the MLS scoring leaders and a player who the best player in the history of US Soccer, Donovan, calls "the perfect partner."




Don’t get me wrong. A big part of me wants to see more players introduced to a top-flight professional development system at a young age. I’d love to have mini-Ajax systems all over the country. I truly believe that if we went further in that direction, in time the US would be one of the world’s soccer superpowers.


But there is another part of me that appreciates the fractioned, overly politicized system that we are stuck with now. When Ching scored, one of the first questions that popped into my head was, "If Brian Ching was Brazilian, would he ever have gotten that opportunity?" I don’t believe he would.

I kind of like where soccer is at in the United States right now – a second-tier sport that for the most part continues to fly under the radar of the nation’s general sports populace. When I contrast the attitudes I see of young players in the NBA with the group of players that got the USA to the 2002 World Cup quarterfinals, I am extremely grateful for soccer’s current status in America.



Like almost everybody who has been associated with soccer in Portland, Oregon in the past 30 years, I have been influenced by Clive Charles. Charles was one of college soccer’s great personalities. He was a man who cared deeply about the people he worked with, to the extent that he often seemed to put the success of his people in front of the success of his soccer teams.

If soccer were followed as passionately as college football or basketball – if every move of every coach was tracked as closely as those of Bobby Bowden or Mike Krzyzewski – I don’t think Charles would have lasted long. Fans would have expected the program to produce titles and championships even if it meant producing lesser individuals. You can go down the list of great NCAA soccer coaches, and almost every one of them has had a similar passion for developing great people. Bruce Arena, Jerry Yeagley, Sigi Schmidt, and so on all have turned out well-rounded people who also happen to be soccer players.



I sometimes question the motives, humanity, or even the sanity of those who would like to see institutions like college soccer disappear completely from the US player development process. I mean, really, is there a better atmosphere for fostering the maturation process than a cinder-blocked 8x12 dorm room and a beer bong? For every Wayne Rooney developed in England, or Ronaldinho produced in Brazil, or Carlos Tevez in Argentina, there are literally thousands of kids who are spit out of the cycle and thrown on the street with little to no real-world coping skills. Had Brian Ching never made it to the US or even Earthquakes, the US developmental process would have spat him out with a 4 year degree from a great university. Ruthless bastards.



So go on. March underneath the "Pros Developing Pros" banner. I see your point. I feel the same passion. I want the US to hoist the ugliest trophy in sports someday, hopefully in my lifetime. But if it ever comes a time where the US lifting the World Cup trophy means that we have to sacrifice building quality, well-rounded, well-educated people in the process, then no thanks. I’ll take being #10 in the FIFA rankings and people like Brian Ching anytime.
The way forward is for MLS teams to develope a Bradenton style of setup. Bradenton has been extremely successful in developing our youth players into some of the best in the world. When one class can produce the likes of Donovan, Beasley and Convey then I think this is considered a success. Most teams in Europe are absolutely delighted if they can bring thru just one player from every youth team. The kids are also receiving their education and graduating earlier. I do believe the college system has its place but the kids that go pro earlier have a better chance than the ones that don't. There is a huge difference between pro at 17 and pro at 22. That is 5 years of wasted development.

[firstouch]

Good post: Collage does produce or help with the development of a number of players. Many of them with MLS, and the National Team. How many European clubs have the oppertunity to see these players. Look at the young St Luois U player who was signed by PSG. He was noticed by his Bosnian under 20 coach, who notified his fellow Bosnian coach of PSG.
If he were to have played another year at STLU I believe many more coaches would have seen his tremendous potential. The system is so fluid I dont think there is any "one" sound or proven way to develope all young players.

[Eliezar]

JOB is our one guy who went to Ajax, and I'd call him a success story. I'd like to know how many invites US kids get to those places, and how many are simply turned down.

Eric Quill was invited to go play at Ajax at 15 and his parents said no. Imad Baba was invited to play at Everton at 15 and turned them down. I would have to say that both Eric and Imad harshly leveled off in development and if they would have been able to jump into an MLS side at 16 might be much better players than they are today. Scott Hicks was invited to play for some English team who I can't remember the name of and whose top team was 3rd division as well, but he turned them down and went on to be a decent NCAA div 3 player. I'm guessing European teams invite 100 US based players a year over to join their youth teams? Or at least did at one point. Now when the English team was talking to us they did say this very encouraging word about coming over to join their side, "normally 1 player from each youth team will move into the proranks and only 1 out of about 4 of those has any type of longlasting pro career." With a sales pitch like that its no wonder that more kids aren't jumping abroad.

[Khan]

If we all had a dollar for every time somebody posted here or elsewhere that college soccer is ruining American soccer players, we wouldn’t need Uncle Phil. We could collectively fund MLS player development ourselves. Also a frequent target of derision is the USSF and their Bradenton strategy, elite club teams who pander to the dollars of suburban youth while ignoring the mythical untapped potential of inner-city athletes, and of course MLS itself for not putting resources into reserve teams to develop future stars.

I’ve got one word for all of you people. Brian Ching.

Is that some kind of special "Portland" math? Because if one counts the word "Brian," and then counts the word "Ching," one can make it all the way up to the number 2 in that equation. You don't need fuzzy logic, calculus, imaginary numbers, or even the need to take off your shoes to count that high when reading the phrase you typed.



If soccer were followed as passionately as college football or basketball – if every move of every coach was tracked as closely as those of Bobby Bowden or Mike Krzyzewski – I don’t think Charles would have lasted long. Fans would have expected the program to produce titles and championships even if it meant producing lesser individuals. You can go down the list of great NCAA soccer coaches, and almost every one of them has had a similar passion for developing great people. Bruce Arena, Jerry Yeagley, Sigi Schmidt, and so on all have turned out well-rounded people who also happen to be soccer players.

Who cares if these coaches produce pure @rseholes or good citizens? This matters not to the enlightened individual.



I sometimes question the motives, humanity, or even the sanity of those who would like to see institutions like college soccer disappear completely from the US player development process. I mean, really, is there a better atmosphere for fostering the maturation process than a cinder-blocked 8x12 dorm room and a beer bong? For every Wayne Rooney developed in England, or Ronaldinho produced in Brazil, or Carlos Tevez in Argentina, there are literally thousands of kids who are spit out of the cycle and thrown on the street with little to no real-world coping skills. Had Brian Ching never made it to the US or even Earthquakes, the US developmental process would have spat him out with a 4 year degree from a great university. Ruthless bastards.


I'm sorry that your heart has to bleed for a kid who gets to go to school for free, or for the youngster who gets the opportunity to play a game that we all love for money. Is it within the realm of possibilities that a person can NOT earn a university degree and still attain success in life? On the other hand, is it within the realm of possibilities that a person can earn multiple degrees, and still be a pile of shyte? A degree may help, but it is hardly the end all/be all of accomplishments in life.


So go on. March underneath the "Pros Developing Pros" banner. I see your point. I feel the same passion. I want the US to hoist the ugliest trophy in sports someday, hopefully in my lifetime. But if it ever comes a time where the US lifting the World Cup trophy means that we have to sacrifice building quality, well-rounded, well-educated people in the process, then no thanks. I’ll take being #10 in the FIFA rankings and people like Brian Ching anytime.


OK, we will. The development of players as people within this country matters exactly 0% to anyone other than that player and perhaps his/her family. So, in the big scheme of things, who really gives a shyte about their development? I don't; I've my own concerns in life, and exactly 0% space to worry about whether or not NCAA soccer players mature into upstanding citizens. I would postulate that the majority of those posting here likewise have more pressing concerns than the life outcomes of soccer players, but that's just a guess.

My recommendation for you: Take up a hobby other than worrying about the plight of the young American soccer player. Or volunteer for the Red Cross instead of worrying about the poor soccer player that can't make it professionally and has no college degree. Try working at a homeless shelter for a few weekends, and you'll see those who truly deserve your pity and your worry. Try a vacation to somewhere in the 3rd world, and you'll get a heaping helping of situations that deserve your worry. But the plight of the young American soccer player without a college degree should rank somewhere below Life Concern #1,875,257,200,000 but above Life Conern #2,000,000,000,000.


Cheers!

[Beethovieff]

I’ve got one word for all of you people. Brian Ching.

When Brian sweetly finished Landon Donovan’s lay off in the right upper 90 to tie Jamaica, a whole segmented system was vindicated to some degree. College soccer could take pride that one of its lesser-known institutions, Gonzaga, had helped to develop a legitimate starting candidate for one of the world’s top 15 national teams. The A-league’s Seattle Sounders, with whom Ching played all of 2002, could say the same. The Spokane Shadow of the USL league could take pride in their piece of developing a player who will be a key piece in the US’ bid for 2006 World Cup Qualifying. And in Honolulu, Hawaii, Kamehameha High School has to be proud of their work in bringing the mainland a workhorse who is among the MLS scoring leaders and a player who the best player in the history of US Soccer, Donovan, calls "the perfect partner."

I'd say Ching is a different kind of player than most, which is why he is a late bloomer. He is not an extremely technical or fast player, which are the ones who go on the fast track to development. He's more of a crafty forward who dominates physically. These are qualities that do not show well until players get into their 20s and integrate into a professional club.

I think they key in US soccer development is to find the right fit for each player. Certain players are late bloomers and would benefit from college. Others need a soccer intensive environment. I think the impetus behind reserve teams is to open up another avenue for development. College will be a choice still. However, for the fast-track types of players, a professional environment may serve them best. We need to increase our professional development while remaining open-minded to players entering MLS from lower divisions or the college ranks. Diversity is the buzz word for development.

[voros]

I'd say Ching is a different kind of player than most, which is why he is a late bloomer. He is not an extremely technical or fast player, which are the ones who go on the fast track to development. He's more of a crafty forward who dominates physically. These are qualities that do not show well until players get into their 20s and integrate into a professional club.
Well I think this is an important point. A lot of these arguments suffer a bit from the "hidden data" problem in that we simply don't know what the results would be of a Brian Ching with professional youth development on his side (which is also something that isn't necessarily exclusive of playing in College). Maybe he's every bit as good a person as he is now (I mean does anybody really want to conclude that Ching is a better person than Arturo Alvarez or Justin Mapp just because he went to college and they didn't), and twice the player. I like Brian Ching and think he's a perfect example of why having MLS and an open mind are keys to the National Team. But he isn't exactly overburdened with technical skills. Maybe a Brian Ching with better training as a youth is a better player. Maybe he isn't.

My guess is that any professional academy system MLS (or whomever) set up would be set up in such a way that college soccer remains an option for the vast majority of the players in that system (just as the Bradenton kids usually go on to college). So I'm not sure the pros vs. college conflict is as cut and dried as you're implying, Nutmeg.

Also it's my understanding that guys like Eddie Gaven and Freddy Adu are attending college classes (or will be) and are really just forgoing college soccer and to an extent the "college experience" of living in dorms and so forth. Project 40 obviously is paying for college for any of the Project 40 players who wish to partake in that.

[voros]

I kind of like where soccer is at in the United States right now – a second-tier sport that for the most part continues to fly under the radar of the nation’s general sports populace. When I contrast the attitudes I see of young players in the NBA with the group of players that got the USA to the 2002 World Cup quarterfinals, I am extremely grateful for soccer’s current status in America.
I have a problem with this. What makes you think you know what the attitudes of young NBA players are like.?Why paint all of them with the same brush as well?

In sports that get lots of press coverage, the media eats players alive. If I were Sammy Sosa and I ran into Rick Reilly in the street I would kick him in his nuts so hard they'd wind up halfway up his throat. A lot of people who know him think Barry Bonds is an intelligent and funny man who also has always suffered a bit emotionally due to a complicated relationship with his now deceased famous father. A lot of people think Albert Belle is a nice guy with some problems that he's done a fairly good job of overcoming. I have a lot more respect for Belle than the vultures who accused him of trying to run down trick or treaters with his car knowing full well he did nothing of the sort. When Albert Belle was 20 he was a bitter and violent drunk. He's now in his mid 30s and he's no longer a drunk, no longer violent and according to his friends, a hell of a lot less bitter. People who try and better themselves and succeed should be praised. Belle's a media pariah because he chose avoidance of the media (the bastard!) as part of his method of treating his issues.

And you can't compare the attitudes of mostly suburban soccer kids who are mostly white, with those kids who are mostly ethnic and mostly urban and often lower middle class or poor. Most young NBA players go to college for a while too and yet if their attitude is as bad as you say it is, than I guess we can't really blame it on a lack of college.

My guess is that part of the difference between young soccer players and the young players in other sports is that the young soccer players don't have the microscope on any of the various indiscretions we all commit from time to time when we're that age. Just imagine the ringer Beasley would have been put through by the mainstream sports media for his sideline urination trick if they gave a damn about soccer. Clint Mathis would otherwise be known as the "great satan." You really think all of the petty little "golden boy" snipes against Donovan you see on this board wouldn't spill over into the media if he was a national figure on the scale of Kobe Bryant? Hell imagine if LD was dating Britney Spears instead of just some actress. Just imagine what we might know if the cameras were turned on our star players 24/7/365.

My guess is the other part is mostly environmental differences that have their effect long before College or pro development enter into it. There is a difference in one's outlook between a person who grows up in Hawaii and one who grows up in the projects of Chicago, D.C., Philly, New York, etc.

[Beau Dure]

The development of players as people within this country matters exactly 0% to anyone other than that player and perhaps his/her family. So, in the big scheme of things, who really gives a shyte about their development? I don't;

I think it was Chris Rock who said he didn't care about spending tax money on public schools because he didn't care how stupid everyone else's kids are. I disagree. Stupid people are one of life's greatest annoyances. They're drains on the economy and traffic hazards. They're the reason that SportsNight only lasted two seasons while reality shows thrive. They're to blame for the descent of American politics into gladitorial combat.

(Aside from that, of course, there's the "basic human decency" idea that suggests we shouldn't be shipping kids into soccer sweatshops and spitting them out four years later unprepared for life as anything other than a mugger.)

[Chicago1871]

I think it was Chris Rock who said he didn't care about spending tax money on public schools because he didn't care how stupid everyone else's kids are. I disagree. Stupid people are one of life's greatest annoyances. They're drains on the economy and traffic hazards. They're the reason that SportsNight only lasted two seasons while reality shows thrive. They're to blame for the descent of American politics into gladitorial combat.

You truly are great.

[Khan]

I think it was Chris Rock who said he didn't care about spending tax money on public schools because he didn't care how stupid everyone else's kids are. I disagree. Stupid people are one of life's greatest annoyances. They're drains on the economy and traffic hazards. They're the reason that SportsNight only lasted two seasons while reality shows thrive. They're to blame for the descent of American politics into gladitorial combat.

Beau, I agree with you on this point. But if stupid people annoy you, what are you doing here on BS?? :D Perhaps if we made reproduction licensed, we wouldn't have the dumb reproducing themeselves in quantity; On the other hand, Jerry Springer and Maury Povich [sp.] do need their studio guests, so maybe the dumb do serve some purpose.


But what I found particularly offensive by the initial post was the stupid idea that college alone makes a person "decent" or an "upstanding citizen" or whatever. Or the dumb idea that someone who doesn't go to college has no chance at success/is innately a lesser being than the college educated individual. What determines a person's success in life is his/her own choices, not whether or not they go to UCLA to study P.E. [snicker, snicker...] What determines a person's level of "decency" is his/her upbrining/moral fibre; As I watch a match, neither of these two matter to me at all.


Some of the biggest piles of shyte in the world went to college, and some of the best people/most successful dropped out of high school. So, to worry about whether or not your team's left full back is a "good guy, because he went to Maryland" is perfectly superfluous. But the point that college may help to develop players in their soccer skills is well-taken.

[clashcityrocker]

Great thread. Let me just bring us back to reality with a hearty

LA SUCKS MY RUIZ!!!!!!!

Anyhow, here's an interesting thought, about 20% on topic:

What is the most stable system of organized soccer in the US? Where are there teams that have continuity, tradition, and a fanbase that stretches back generations?

College, right?

Why couldn't there be a way to knit the two systems together? If we had to create a large enough league that would adequately cover the country - 18-20 teams, say - the A-League would be strip-mined and we'd have no lower leagues left. If you could integrate the college programs into the A-League and PDL (or whatever the next level down is), you'd automatically raise the amount of money available to the schools while introducing real stability to the US soccer pyramid for the first time.

The secret to the success and longetivity of the big football leagues of the world isn't anything to do with money or organization or passion for the top teams - it's passion in general, which means that a town of 50,000 can support a 3rd division team, and every once in a while you get to play a Newcastle or Bremen. Fans of FC Dufendorfenburg 97 don't care that their team sucks - it is theirs, and it is legend. They'll kick the ass of any straying FC Flugenhaben fan they find.

Where else are you guarenteed access to a pool of rabid drunken young men - 'lads', for the English in the room - that will threaten the opposing team with death? College! We have hooligans, too. It's just that they don't, you know, follow soccer. But get them drunk enough, and they will. A Duke fan doesn't care if the sport is basketball or gridiron, he only cares that they're beating North Carolina. At least some of this passion will transfer. If you went to Duke, and you're a Duke soccer fan, then damn straight you're watching Duke hoops, too.

Not like it's hard to be a Duke fan. I went to Santa Cruz. Try following Fighting Banana Slug athletics. It's kind of like being an FC Dufendorfenburg 97 fan. But I'll root for the Slugs anywhere, assuming of course that they were, you know, playing something.

Obviously, there are a million reasons that this will never happen. But BYU entered their team into the PDL, forgoing the NCAA. With the NCAA increasingly controlled by big football and basketball money, why shouldn't the Indiana, Stanford, Duke, and UCLA soccer programs be able to play up a level and take care of themselves for once?

Anyhow, just a thought.