Bundesliga going down?

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Ok I wrote such a long post but there was an error submitting the thread and now it's lost, so I am going to keep this brief.

Why is it that German clubs on the whole with the exception of Bayern are performing so poorly in Europe? Hamburg have recently crashed out of a potential spot in the UEFA cup by losing 2-0 on aggregate to Villareal; they join Wolfsbug and Dortmund with no European campaign. Dortmund... this is a team that is supposed to challenge for the league title and they lose to a lowly Swiss team! What is happening!? Inferior talent? Surely the German Bundesliga is no longer one of the top 4 leagues in Europe... have the French overtaken? Are they going to steal one of the automatic spots like the English did a few years ago?

With those that have qualified automatically, I don't see them doing much either.

Werder Bremen? Bochum? I think not.

I remember a couple seasons ago there were about 6 German clubs in the UEFA cup and not a single one made it to the semi finals. Pathetic I tell you.

[Gregoriak]

At least the Bundesliga last season had the highest average number of spectators per game. That`s SOME consolidation.

Ok I wrote such a long post but there was an error submitting the thread and now it's lost, so I am going to keep this brief.

The exact same thing happened to me minutes ago in the Klinsmann thread! I hate this "board traffic" crap. The shame is that if you hit the back button, you won`t get your message back, like it should be. You have to be a paying premium member or whatever to avoid this stuff.

Dortmund... this is a team that is supposed to challenge for the league title and they lose to a lowly Swiss team!

I think it was Genk, a Belgiam team, wasn`t it? Certainly not a Swiss team. Dortmund have no business this year challenging the league title.

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At least the Bundesliga last season had the highest average number of spectators per game. That`s SOME consolidation.



The exact same thing happened to me minutes ago in the Klinsmann thread! I hate this "board traffic" crap. The shame is that if you hit the back button, you won`t get your message back, like it should be. You have to be a paying premium member or whatever to avoid this stuff.



I think it was Genk, a Belgiam team, wasn`t it? Certainly not a Swiss team. Dortmund have no business this year challenging the league title.

Highest number of spectators, but isn't that because the tickets are cheap? Would we see the same number if the prices were similar to those in England?

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Haha nearly happened to me again but this time I just kept clicking the refresh button till my thread was posted.

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My mistake, you are right it was Genk. I thought for some reason it was FC Basel...

[Alex_K]

One year ago you wouldn't have made this thread. Let's see what happens
this year before we talk about trends.


this is a team that is supposed to challenge for the league title and they lose to a lowly Swiss team!
Whoever says that Dortmund is challenging for the league title probably has a) a BVB season ticket or b) no idea what he is talking about (or both of course ;)). And it was a Belgian team btw.


Are they going to steal one of the automatic spots like the English did a few years ago?
Definitly not (as both leagues already have the same number of spots).

Oh, and always copy your post before you hit submit :D.

[Alex_K]

Highest number of spectators, but isn't that because the tickets are cheap?
No.

[SwissGCZ]

My mistake, you are right it was Genk. I thought for some reason it was FC Basel...
You must be thinking of Wolfsburg's elimination at the hands of FC Thun. Oh, and FC Basel is NOT a "lowly" Swiss team...

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Whoever says that Dortmund is challenging for the league title probably has a) a BVB season ticket or b) no idea what he is talking about (or both of course


If Dortmund isn't one of the main contenders for league champions, who are? Freiburg? Arminia Bielefeld? :D

Yes it is pretty much a given already that Bayern will win the league but I do believe Dortmund will be up there around 3rd-5th spot come the end of the campaign.

You must be thinking of Wolfsburg's elimination at the hands of FC Thun. Oh, and FC Basel is NOT a "lowly" Swiss team...

I didn't mean lowly in terms of being lousy but rather with wealth. I have no gripe with Switzerland believe me, my girlfriend is from around Basel. :)

[shutoutj]

Schalke have got to the Intertoto final for the second consecutive time. But that does little to mask German clubs' poor performance.
Maybe the reason is the ticket prices, and German clubs aren't that rich anymore.
I think, even if the ticket prices were raised, that German football attendance wouild still be higher than England just because the level of passion is higher(IMO).

German football as a whole is at down point right now.

But my theory as to why the clubs aren't succeeding is because there isn't enough German talent on the team and all the crappy foreigners are taking the places of promising youth.

[Alex_K]

If Dortmund isn't one of the main contenders for league champions, who are? Freiburg? Arminia Bielefeld?
Try Bremen, Stuttgart and Leverkusen instead, who (and maybe Schalke) will finish above Dortmund. I probably just contradicted my statement from the predictions thread, but who cares ? :D


Yes it is pretty much a given already that Bayern will win the league
Don't be too confident. I predict that they will have to fight until the last match day (plus there will be a nice little player revolt against Magath. You heard it here first ! :D)



I didn't mean lowly in terms of being lousy but rather with wealth. I have no grife with Switzerland believe me, my girlfriend is from around Basel.
Basel has probably a higher budget than some Bundesliga teams.

[Alex_K]

Maybe the reason is the ticket prices, and German clubs aren't that rich anymore.

Yeah, because we all know how succesfull those Italian clubs are financialy.


But my theory as to why the clubs aren't succeeding is because there isn't enough German talent on the team and all the crappy foreigners are taking the places of promising youth.
And my theory is that your theory is wrong ;).

[AFCA]

I think it was Genk, a Belgiam team, wasn`t it? Certainly not a Swiss team. Dortmund have no business this year challenging the league title.

Wasn't it Club Brugge first for CL?

[SwissGCZ]

I didn't mean lowly in terms of being lousy but rather with wealth. I have no gripe with Switzerland believe me, my girlfriend is from around Basel. :)
I know what you meant - and you're stil wrong. ;)

FC Basel is backed by a billionaire and has a budget of CHF 30-50 mio. (depending on if they make the CL...)

[SirManchester]

Just keep clicking the refresh button,eventually you'll have it posted. Thats what I keep doing.

As for the topic in discussion here, I must say that I unfortunately have to agree and lower my head in shame because of the lack of German competition in Europe. The league got a lot weaker in general, too many foreigners playing, national team is a lot weaker...these are all reasons for that. Even Bayern, the top club in Germany, has had trouble in Europe recently and they have so many great players. I think Bayern has an overall better team than many of the top clubs in Europe, ex: Real, Inter, Juve etc. They just can't click as a team and I have a feeling that all german teams going into European competitions enter with a lack of self confidence.

I hope this new Bayern team can be kings of Europe this upcoming season and change all that!

[shutoutj]

Yeah, because we all know how succesfull those Italian clubs are financialy.


And my theory is that your theory is wrong ;).
Okay, smartass, would you like to try contributing to the discussion instead of picking apart my posts? It's obvious the foreigners contribute to the problem at hand, because our youth doesn't get a chances to play often. How else do you explain the situation of Die Mannschaft?
Coincidence? I think not.
The Italians are idiots who don't know how to manage their money, both Juve and Milan are in the top 5 richest clubs in the world if I'm not mistaken.

[mschofield]

...It's obvious the foreigners contribute to the problem at hand, because our youth doesn't get a chances to play often. How else do you explain the situation of Die Mannschaft?
Coincidence? I think not...

How about it's cyclical and the current team just isn't as good as the previous one, the ball didn't bounce for them, Kahn is slipping, Ballack can't score, there's no creative mid (hardly the only nation with this problem). Holland didn't qualify for the last WC. that's a significant worry. Getting knocked out in the group is disappointing.
The team is down right now, but not that far down. They could have advanced. And at one point in the EM they had, what, three 20 -22 year olds on the field. that's young talent. My guess is they do pretty well in `06.
The league, however, is still pretty good. Stu and BM were both good CL teams last year. Werder Bremen was fun to watch last year (shame that team won't be contesting CL). Dort and BL have the organizations to be euro forces again.
Every Euro league has fans who believe their nat teams are slipping because their club teams have so many outsiders. So, what, are all the good players coming from nations with lousy leagues?
There's still a lot of talent out there, Germany is just waiting for a couple difference makers. And you don't get those every cycle.

[shutoutj]

That's a good explanation, but the German national team has been ting year after year for a long time without many, if any, of these cycles.
Deisler and Schweinsteiger are both very creative. Deisler was depressed, that's why he didn't play.
Ballack's the only guy who CAN score, and he plays midfield.
And by the way, Bremen will be able to compete in the CL. They didn't lose the only two strong points in the team.

[footyfan1]

shutoutj - That's a good explanation, but the German national team has been ting year after year for a long time without many, if any, of these cycles.

Deisler and Schweinsteiger are both very creative. Deisler was depressed, that's why he didn't play.

Ballack's the only guy who CAN score, and he plays midfield.

And by the way, Bremen will be able to compete in the CL. They didn't lose the only two strong points in the team.


Keith's Responses:


Deisler: Deisler did suffer from a bout with major depression last season and I think it should be said that while his football situation contributed to his depression (The pressure of the Bayern spotlight), the major source of his depression was the difficult pregnancy his girlfriend was going through. Once she gave birth safely, Deisler came out of his depression.


Ballack: Ballack isn't the ONLY guy on the German National Team who can score. Torsten Frings can score too, but Voeller always chose to play him defensively. However, he's a midfielder too!!

What sucks for Germany right now is that the most dangerous known GERMAN STRIKER is 18 year-old Lukas Podolski, who'll be spending this season in the 2. Bundesliga with 1. FC Koln. Some might argue that title belongs to Kevin Kuranyi, but I've always believed that Kuranyi is good, but overhyped just as Miroslav Klose is. This is why despite Oliver (KONG) Kahn's comments, the people at the German Football Federation (DFB) are seriously considering pushing Ailton for German citizenship.



Bremen Competing In The CL: Depending on the draw, I don't think Werder Bremen makes it past the second round. Werder Bremen had what I call a "Dream Season" this past season. Things just went their way. They suffered no major setbacks whatsoever. Bayern dealt with some injury problems last season, Stuttgart had a couple and nobody in the world of football suffered the mass of injury problems that Borussia Dortmund did. Basically, what I'm saying is that while Bremen are a VERY GOOD team, they aren't as good as last season's record indicated and I believe you will see that this season. Especially since they replaced the Bundesliga's leading goal-scorer last season with Germany's biggest striking fraud (Klose).


Dortmund Contending For The Bundesliga Title: As you can see by my profile, I'm a Borussia Dortmund fan and I'm here to tell you that there's no way in hell Dortmund contends for the title this season. We have a strong midfield and a solid goalkeeper, but our defense is borderline crappy and slower than snails without injury problems and right now, our two best defenders, Christian Woerns and Christoph Metzelder (CMetz) are both out with achilles problems. Woerns' is strained, but he should be ready in two or three weeks and CMetz almost completely destroyed his last season and is still trying to finish his rehab. BVB needs central defensive help, but refuse to go and get any. Personally, I think Tony Sanneh is their best option, but some of us know that the executives at the "big" German clubs think "Americans Can't Play This Game". Sanneh is an international player, has Bundesliga, UEFA Cup (with Berlin) and World Cup experience, is available on a free transfer, and is faster than every player on the BVB team except maybe a couple of the young strikers and midfielders. However, I don't think Dortmund has even taken a glance in his direction. Someone mentioned wondering if Malte Metzelder would get any playing time this season. Yes, he will get major playing time. ON THE AMATEUR TEAM. From what my best buddy in that area says, Malte Metzelder is "useless". So, everyone in the world knows that BVB needs help in defense except..........

BVB MANAGEMENT!!

Instead of getting this team the defensive help it's needed for three years now, the freakin' morons in BVB management want to get another freakin' midfielder!!! It doesn't matter that midfield is the strongest area of the team, the only "name" that's available is Mark van Bommel and they want him. I guess it helps that he's the new coach's son-in-law, but they haven't learned the lesson we learned from the "Frings/Rosicky" experiment. There's only room for one star midfielder in Dortmund. Frings didn't like playing second-fiddle to Rosicky and vice versa. van Bommel could potentially help BVB, but only if he's willing to put his ego in his back pocket and just be defensive.

I hope then Coach Bert van Marwijk can teach Sunday Oliseh to play central defense........

Sorry about the rant! I even held back some. I'm just PASSIONATE when it comes to Borussia Dortmund!



Why The Bundesliga Is "Going Down": I have a two word reason for this. And some of you will think I'm just a bitter and pissed off fan, but I'm going to say it anyway and if you think that way, that's your problem. I'm being very serious here. I feel the two word reason for the Bundesliga's dip as a power in European Football is:

BAYERN MUENCHEN

Bayern has gotten to where it is now by systematically raping it's closest competition in the Bundesliga for some years now.

Take a look at the Bayern roster and see how many of their current and recently departed players were the top players on other Bundesliga contenders before they went to Bayern.

About the only former contender I can say Bayern have not helped bring down or destroy is Borussia Dortmund. We Dortmund fans have no one to blame for our downfall except the freakin' morons in BVB management.

What's funny is that these days, it isn't so much Bayern's own fault as it is the mentality of the German people and the management of other German clubs.

There's still a notion with young German players that you cannot reach "the highest level" in your football career if you haven't played for Bayern Muenchen.

I lived in Germany for 15 years. Did a little football reporting for a few sites while I was there too. The way these people think about Bayern Muenchen is astounding. So many people there act as if something is wrong with the world if FC Bayern are not the Bundesliga champions. Of course, they are spurred on by the German press. The closest thing to royalty I ever saw in Germany was FC Bayern Muenchen.

Anyway, Bayern's systematic pillaging of the other good German teams' talent has left the other teams greatly weakened. This is one reason German teams, except Bayern, have a terrible time in European competition.

Until a couple of years ago, Bayern would do some blatant cheating too. Everytime they are caught, they openly admit guilt, but nothing ever happens to them. The DFB even CHANGED TRANSFER RULES rather than punish Bayern for breaking the rules already in place!! The perfect example of this is their acquisition of Sebastian Deisler. Bayern gave him an illegal payment to secure his signature well before they were even allowed by the rules to even talk to him.

There's also been instances where Bayern have talked players into forcing their clubs to sell them to FC Bayern. The three biggest examples of this is a former Bayern player and two current Bayern players. The former Bayern player is Giovane Elber. Elber forced Stuttgart to sell him to Bayern some years ago after Stuttgart turned down every advance Bayern made for Elber. The two current Bayern players are Ze Roberto, who truly held Leverkusen hostage to join Michael Ballack in moving from Leverkusen to Munich and the other player is Torsten Frings, who talked his way out of Dortmund, but would only agree to a sale to Bayern.

For years I've believed that while Bayern management claims they "will do anything for German Football" (BS!) it is their pillaging of their closest competition that's destroying the good standing of German clubs in European Competition.

Just my opinion.

Bayern fans, flame away. I can take it.




Keith

[BayernWake]

But my theory as to why the clubs aren't succeeding is because there isn't enough German talent on the team and all the crappy foreigners are taking the places of promising youth.

...which is why I like seeing guys like Basti Schweinsteiger do so well.

[Robert25]

The Bundesliga has a lot going for it too. The fan attendence is not merely because of cheap prices, but a loyal fan base.

Maybe I am wrong and I'll regret saying this, but i think the Bundesliga and the German national team will come back to greater prominence in time. I think the decline of both are related, but not totally unreversable. I think in time both will become stronger.

[BayernWake]

shutoutj -

Bayern fans, flame away. I can take it.




Keith

Can't say I disagree with you. However, like you said, it's not "Bayern's fault." It's the perception of Bayern as a German football Mecca. This perception needs to change. Crazy as this may sound, I wasn't wholly disappointed when Werder clinched the league title...I enjoy parity from time to time...you know, mixing things up a little. Bayern's stranglehold over the Bundesliga won't last forever. That's just how it is right now. German football is in a slump, but given time, I think it will persevere.