Understanding the Bundesliga?

[UCLAcrew]

I've been following the Bundesliga for a year now, but I live in LA and don't get Fox Sports World, so it's been a little difficult. To keep up to date, I spent last year faithfully checking the Bayern Muenchen website. However, I found that the official club sites -- similar to American sports sites -- are a poor source of actual information. And on top of that, further research into Germany in general and the Bundesliga in particular lead me to the conclusion that Bayern Muenchen was the equivalent to if the New York Yankees were located instead in Texas (I mean no disrespect to any of the above parties, but I was raised a Red Sox fan).

Which leads me to ask, to better understand the Bundesliga, are there any counterparts in American sports -- I use Major League Baseball as an example since the structures of the two leagues seem similar -- to German teams? From what I've gathered so far, Bayern Muenchen is more or less the Yankees as I said, and Werder Bremen is similar to the Seattle Mariners. And I would assume Stuttgart would be similar to a Detroit team, although I cannot say for certain.

Any help you could provide in my understanding of the relationships between the Bundesliga teams would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[wolfsburgh]

I'll bite (even though, as you know, we are comparing apples and oranges). One thing which makes this comparison more doable is limiting MLB history to a duration similar to that of the BL (which started in 1963 or thereabouts). Another is to choose one or two points of comparison which predominate over others. For my purposes, I'm going to concentrate on on-the-field performance (but will consider other things if it suits my purpose :) ).

Bayern Munich = NY Yankees (most successful team, arrogant but well-run, biggest budget, and notwithstanding your comments about Texas, Munich is one of Germany's biggest and most vibrant cities).

Bayer Leverkusen = Atlanta Braves (a team that's been successful for a number of years but can't get over the hump; relative newcomers to top-level play, if you discount Braves history pre-Atlanta; Leverkusen is closely linked to Bayer AG, while the Braves are linked to Time Warner)

Werder Bremen = St. Louis Cardinals (a team with loyal fan support, an enjoyable career stop for the players, intermittent success, unfashionable city) (another possible comparator is Minnesota, but I don't think Minnesota is as "big" a club as Werder is)

Borussia Moenchengladbach = Cincinnati Reds (loyal fan support, world beaters in the 70s, but now teams sort of scuffling by, each have new stadiums)

Hamburg SV = LA Dodgers (league perennials but who really haven't had much success lately despite fairly liberal spending; fans think they are better than they really are, but these are still "big clubs"; one problem I have with this comparison is that Hamburg is more New York-ish while LA might be more Munich-ish).

To be continued.

[SoftTackle]

It's a bit difficult to compare. Bayern are obviously at the top, significantly ahead in power and international prestige than everybody else, but there are a host of clubs below them that are on a relatively equal plane of existence (Dortmund, Hertha, Bayer, Werder, Schalke, HSV, Stuttgart etc.) which makes the BL unique to other leagues in Europe who have a clear hierarchy.

If I had to compare:

Bayern = Yankees
Bayer = A's - Smallish club that wins by finding young talent.
Dortmund = Cardinals - Not the Yankees but plenty of scalps on the wall and always competitive
Werder = Marlins - Every so often comes out of nowhere to win a title
Hertha = Cubs - Finally waking up after a long slumber but still can put some lousy years together
HSV = Dodgers - Great pedigree, but not much to show for it of late

[wolfsburgh]

Vfl Wolfsburg = Texas Rangers (teams that have spent liberally in recent years but don't have anything to show for it; relative newcomers to the big leagues)

Borussia Dortmund = NY Mets (both teams trying to keep up with the big dog-Yanks or Bayern-on the field and with expenditures, with some success, but not sustained; both teams going through a bit of a rebuilding right now after money spent poorly)

Kaiserslautern = Baltimore Orioles (teams that have enjoyed some past success, but do not seem well-managed, and are presently not in good shape, on or off the field)

Vfb Stuttgart = can't get my hands around a good comparison for Stuttgart, but I don't see how Detroit is a good comparison.

Bayer Leverkusen could also be equated to Houston and maybe Cleveland. Another good comparator for Werder would be Oakland.

[wolfsburgh]

It's a bit difficult to compare. Bayern are obviously at the top, significantly ahead in power and international prestige than everybody else, but there are a host of clubs below them that are on a relatively equal plane of existence (Dortmund, Hertha, Bayer, Werder, Schalke, HSV, Stuttgart etc.) which makes the BL unique to other leagues in Europe who have a clear hierarchy.

If I had to compare:

Bayern = Yankees
Bayer = A's - Smallish club that wins by finding young talent.
Dortmund = Cardinals - Not the Yankees but plenty of scalps on the wall and always competitive
Werder = Marlins - Every so often comes out of nowhere to win a title
Hertha = Cubs - Finally waking up after a long slumber but still can put some lousy years together
HSV = Dodgers - Great pedigree, but not much to show for it of late

Oakland and Bayer are not a bad comparison, but the big difference is that Bayer spashes some cash while Oakland is a spendthrift.

I was having a hard time matching up Hertha, but I agree with you that the Cubs are a good match.

Werder and the Marlins don't work. Werder was in the early 1990s arguably the best team in the BL, Werder won an early BL title, and they are almost always competitive. Moreover, they seem to win the right way off the field. The Marlins are a rollercoaster who purchased their first championship (quite the opposite of the way Werder wins championships), then gutted themselves, and caught lightning in a bottle last year. Plus, Werder's fans are loyal; can't say that about South Floridians.

[wolfsburgh]

Schalke 04 = Boston Red Sox (blindly loyal fans; a team that hasn't won in forever, but in recent years has become very competitive by spending big)

Hansa Rostock = Tampa Bay Devil Rays (relative newcomers to the big leagues, both through forms of expansion, who have done nothing of note other than survive, but Hansa was better this past season and Tampa has been much better this season; both are near the water).

Eintracht Frankfurt = Philadelphia Phillies (fans have a questionable rep, both teams have had some minimal success but haven't sustained it, you can fly non-stop from Philly to Frankfurt)

Vfl Bochum = Detroit Tigers (a non-descript team in a depressed city; this comparison, though, fails to full take into account the fact that the Tigers were very good in the mid-1980s and, to a lesser extent, late 1960s, while Bochum was never good, at least not in the BL-era) (Cleveland might also be a decent comparison, here).

Hertha Berlin = Seattle Mariners (both teams' existence was threatened not that long ago, but got infusions of money and have been sniffing around the top lately, except for their most recent seasons, when both have stunk) (as I mentioned earlier, Cubs are a decent comparison, too).

[UCLAcrew]

Many thanks to all who responded. This has helped me out a great deal.

[PileD]

Schalke 04 = Boston Red Sox (blindly loyal fans; a team that hasn't won in forever, but in recent years has become very competitive by spending big)

What, ???
FC Schalke 04 has won 7 German Championships, 4 times the Cup and one time the european Cup.

[wolfsburgh]

Schalke 04 = Boston Red Sox (blindly loyal fans; a team that hasn't won in forever, but in recent years has become very competitive by spending big)

What, ???
FC Schalke 04 has won 7 German Championships, 4 times the Cup and one time the european Cup.

As I said, it's tough to compare, especially since there are so many more things a German soccer team could "win." I was focusing on BL championships and Schalke has not won a BL championship (and when was the last time they won the German championship pre-BL? It really has been forever; 1950s, maybe?). As for the DFB Pokal and UEFA Cup titles, I sort of viewed those as proof of positive results, but not the pinnacle (just like the Red Sox are a fairly regularly playoff team, but never win the World Series). I actually think this is a pretty apt comparison (unlike some of the others, which are stretches).

[PileD]

I've been following the Bundesliga for a year now, but I live in LA and don't get Fox Sports World, so it's been a little difficult. To keep up to date, I spent last year faithfully checking the Bayern Muenchen website. However, I found that the official club sites -- similar to American sports sites -- are a poor source of actual information. And on top of that, further research into Germany in general and the Bundesliga in particular lead me to the conclusion that Bayern Muenchen was the equivalent to if the New York Yankees were located instead in Texas (I mean no disrespect to any of the above parties, but I was raised a Red Sox fan).

Which leads me to ask, to better understand the Bundesliga, are there any counterparts in American sports -- I use Major League Baseball as an example since the structures of the two leagues seem similar -- to German teams? From what I've gathered so far, Bayern Muenchen is more or less the Yankees as I said, and Werder Bremen is similar to the Seattle Mariners. And I would assume Stuttgart would be similar to a Detroit team, although I cannot say for certain.

Any help you could provide in my understanding of the relationships between the Bundesliga teams would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

What fans would like to see:

Rank Club Cap. Total Avg. Calc.

1. Borussia Dortmund 83.000 1287286 75722 61000
2. FC Schalke 04 61265 997347 61118 57000
3. Bayern München 63000 954665 56156 40000
4. Hamburger SV 52854 802915 47230 45000
5. VfB Stuttgart - 708377 41669 28000
6. Hertha BSC 56038 664168 39068 38000
7. 1. FC Köln - 656181 38598 24000
8. 1. FC Kaiserslautern 47315 638558 37562 36000
9. Werder Bremen - 598026 35178 30000
10. Bor. Mönchengladbach 34500 535587 31505 28000
11. TSV 1860 München - 484104 28476 26000
12. VfL Bochum 32645 434436 25555 20000
13. Eintracht Frankfurt - 431923 25407 25000
14. SC Freiburg - 404491 23793 23000
15. Hannover 96 - 389594 22917 23000
16. VfL Wolfsburg 30000 374196 22011 22000
17. Hansa Rostock 29500 364791 21458 18000
18. Bayer Leverkusen 22500 360297 21193 20000

[hertha supporter]

[QUOTE} And on top of that, further research into Germany in general and the Bundesliga in particular lead me to the conclusion that Bayern Muenchen was the equivalent to if the New York Yankees were located instead in Texas (I mean no disrespect to any of the above parties, but I was raised a Red Sox fan).[/QUOTE]

yes...another bosox fan!!

I think Bayer Leverkusen is a good synonym for the Red Sox; they have a stadium that is too small, they always come close and every now and then they bomb... :(

[Robert25]

Hello from a fellow so. Californian.

A little hint of some of the rivalries is like UCLA and USC :cool:

Bayern are the big boys and when they play a team like Dortmund, or Leverkusen, its usually a pretty tough match.

Another comparable huge rivalry is Leverkusen and Shalke or both of these teams versus Dortmund as they battle for Ruhr bragging rights.

[Alex_K]

I wouldn't call Leverkusen vs. anyone (except Köln, maybe) "huge rivalry". And they aren't located in the Ruhr area either :D.

[/nitpicker]

[Robert25]

My mistake ;)

[PileD]

My mistake ;)

But there is big rivalry between Schalke and Leverkusen, not from the fans, but the teams don`t like.

Schalke vs. Dortmund (Bochum or Essen) is a fan rivalry.

[PFSIKH]

wolfsburgh - You nailed both the 1.FCK and Red Sox comparisons.

[dfb547490]

1860 Munich = NY Mets :(

A brilliant season every 10 years or so, but aside from that switching between mediocre and horrible despite being in a big city and having a decent amount of talent.

[210597]

Arite, here are my attempts:

Bayern Munich-NY Yankees. That's easy.
Werder Bremen-small club, financially conservative but they've had successful stretches, and they've worn funky colors in the past: red and white in the early 70s and royal blue in the late 70s, believe you can see them on fussballdaten.de, plus adding orange last season to the color scheme. Has to be the Oakland A's.
Bayer Leverkusen-fairly successful club with no tradition and no fans. I'd say they're what the Marlins were in 1997. Rich owner (Huizenga = Bayer) who doesn't always keep the cash coming (1998 gutting of the roster = 50% payroll cuts coming now at Bayer).
VfB Stuttgart-fairly big-market club with lots of tradition and financial problems now coming back with a crop of young stars. Maybe Baltimore, who after years of overspending are trying to play the youth card now? Except Stuttgart are good.
VfL Bochum-the poor, poorly supported Cinderella story team from a large market (Bochum being part of the Ruhr region soccer hotbed) that's overshadowed by its neighbors (Dodgers = Schalke and Dortmund), never won anything and is now making good. I'd say the 2002 Angels, except that Bochum never really endured heartbreak like Anaheim did in 1986 and 1995, they were just considered a team that stuck in the league even tho nobody knew why, and then finally hit the elevator in the 90s and really getting lucky thruout the 70s and 80s not to go down.
Borussia Dortmund-The nouveau-riche team (Dortmund hit it big in the early 90s and spent big) that tried to buy its way to the top, sold its soul in the process, grew like crazy and seemed to be succeeding (1995, 1996 and 2002 champs, 1997 champs league winners) but then crashed (they basically got their license bc Bayern were kind enough to pay them 8mil for Torsten Frings, and they crashed out of the Intertoto Cup, a third-tier european tourney, this preseason, funny considering they were considered a mortal CL lock as recently as last preseason). I would say Cleveland-they bought themselves a good team in the early 90s and it lasted for a while, but they're almost back where they started now, tho they've got some hopeful young guys, as does Dortmund. It remains to be seen whether Dortmund can come back with young guys like Cleveland did this year for a while.
Schalke 04, my team-The Boston Red Sox. Schalke were successful in the 30s and 40s, wildly successful, winning six championships and two cups. They won one more title in 1958, but that was really an aberration. And you could equate the pre-Bundesliga era with baseball's dead ball era-it was just a different game back then! So the BoSox' 1918 really isn't that far off from our 1958. And then the heartbreak moments for Schalke. 1972: Losing the title on the last day of the season with a surprising young team, winning the Cup as a sort of consolation, thinking they'd stay up for a long time, and then finding that the Bundesliga bribery scandal would tear the team apart. After years of struggle caused by youthful stupidity in lying under oath and the fact that the federation scapegoats them, the team comes back in 1977. And again, they lose the title on the last day of the season when Gladbach and Bayern decide 2-2 is a mutually benificial result. Then relegation in 1981, the dark 1980s, finally, euphoria in 1997 winning the UEFA cup. You could equate that to the Red Sox reaching the playoffs in the mid-90s after years of darkness, except it was bigger. Then the 2001 team, this was gonna be the squad, and they lose the title on a Bayern injury time goal. That day, May 24th, 2001, was our ALCS game 7, Patrik Andersson being our Aaron Boone. And yet the fans are fanatical and believe every year that this'll be the year-who does that remind you of? Schalke has to be Boston.
Hamburger SV-LA Dodgers. Big-market team, never poor, never a real bad team, just never really live up to their potential!
Hansa Rostock-Kansas City Royals. Small-market team with no hope of competing. Fighting for survival every year and can only hope to annoy the big boys, but, by their standards, fairly successful.
VfL Wolfsburg-Arizona Diamondbacks. Probably a better analogy is the NHL Tampa Bay Lightning. The new boys who have bought their way pretty high up with Volkswagen money. Except Wolfsburg can't reach the top like TB or Arizona did. Still they're anathema to the sport's traditionalists.
Borussia Mönchengladbach-I'll go with the Reds for the reasons mentioned above. Even the hope is the same with the new stadium.
Hertha BSC Berlin-Philadelphia Phillies. Big team, but always wildly disorganized and wildly under potential, and no real big tradition or tradition of support.
SC Freiburg-Minnesota Twins. Tiny club surviving with nothing by just bringing up great young players.
Hannover 96-Houston Astros. Pretty big market, but not huge. Team with no real identity or personality, and they were bad for a while. No one cares about them!
1. FC Kaiserslautern-Can't find a match. The undisputed beloved team of a region, devoted fans, never really a great team but had their moments, you can't really imagine the league without them, but they're not a threat to be good most years. Also in utter disarray right now. Maybe the Pirates, beloved in '60 and '79, decent every couple of years, but horrible now? The Green Bay Packers of the 80s and early 90s are prob the best example.
1. FC Nürnberg-Montréal Expos. Why are the Expos so bad and so poorly supported? They've just had horrible luck. The difference is that Nürnberg had a lot more tradition and success in the past, and isn't THAT hopeless. So maybe a cross btw Montréal and Pittsburgh?
Arminia Bielefeld-Milwaukee Brewers. They're bad, they're small-market, and no one cares.
FSV Mainz 05-Tampa Bay Devil Rays. New team that doesn't have a shot from the start. Even the unis look bush-league. Remind you of anyone lol?

and some fallen giants in the lower divisions:

1. FC Köln and Eintracht Frankfurt-New York Mets. Legendary squads from big markets now down and out with financial trouble and chaos in the board room.
1860 München-The team with a bit of tradition that sold its soul, moving to bigger Olympic Stadium, tried to be something it wasn't, had a little success, bought some old-timers, but ultimately failed miserably. Seattle maybe? That team has nothing to do with the terrible squad who had at best a cult following in the 70s. But there isn't a real match for them.
MSV Duisburg-Toronto, I guess. The bad team that was never big, but still good once upon a time, and now loses itself in delusions of grandeur. Duisburg was never as good as Toronto in 92 and 93 tho.
Karlsruher SC-The Charlotte Hornets of the NBA, rite before their move to New Orleans. They were the team of the coming decade in the 90s. They were just the coolest thing around. Except then their best players left (Larry Johnson to NY, Alonzo Mourning to MIA = Olli Kahn, Michael Tarnat, Thorsten Fink to Bayern), their stadium fell behind the new trends, their crowds fell drastically, and they fell until they were near the bottom. Back in D2 after a 3rd division stint.
Dynamo Dresden-Chicago Cubs? Locally beloved team with a great past that is on the up and up after years of despair. Not near as good as the Cubs are.
Eintracht Braunschweig, Fortuna Düsseldorf-Three third division squads that are amazingly well supported and whose loyal fans really believe they'll be back up top very soon. Haven't been good in a long time though. Idk about MLB counterparts.
FC St. Pauli-The cultish club of the alternative set, no. 2 team in their city to HSV, way near the bottom now.

There's your guide...that was fun to give some thought!

[Kimmy]

Hello from a fellow so. Californian.

Another comparable huge rivalry is Leverkusen and Shalke or both of these teams versus Dortmund as they battle for Ruhr bragging rights.

Sorry to say but Leverkusen vs Schalke is not a big rivalry. THE match of matches is Leverkusen vs Cologne - they hate each other so much that players of either side cannot be seen in either city without getting into trouble (Leverkusen is a 15 minute train ride out of Cologne). And you don´t want to walk around either city in the opponents colours....

Schlake vs Dortmund however is s different story, they are fierce rivals.

[Kimmy]

Hamburger SV-LA Dodgers. Big-market team, never poor, never a real bad team, just never really live up to their potential!


Obviously as a German I cannot compare the teams to your Baseball or Football teams BUT I have to disagree on your description of Hamburg SV:

The ONLY team left that NEVER got relegated from the Bundesliga since it was founded in 1963, here are some vital statistics:

June 6th 1973: After a 4-0 defeat of Borussia Moenchengladbach, HSV lift the German League Cup.
June 26th 1976: HSV secure their second German Cup win after beating Kaiserslautern 2-0.
May 11th 1977: The club make their first big breakthrough in international football, with a 2-0 win over Anderlecht in the European Cup Winners Cup final. Volkert and Magath get the goals for Hamburg.
June 9th 1979: HSV is crowned Bundesliga Champions for the first time in their history.
May 28th 1980: A 0-1 defeat for Hamburg in the European Cup final, at the hands of English side Nottingham Forest.
May 29 1982: Top scorer Horst Hrubesch, with 27 league goals, leads HSV to the Bundesliga title.
May 25 1983: Felix Magath hits the winning goal that gives HSV a 1-0 victory over Juventus in the European Cup final.
Hamburg finish the 1999/2000 Bundesliga season in 3rd place, behind Bayern Munich and Bayer Leverkusen, and qualify for the Champions League.
May 2000: Hamburg played a fantastic 99/00 Bundesliga season. Coach Frank Pagelsdorf and his team finished the campaign in 3rd place, just rewards for the attractive, attacking football presented by the HSV.
August 2000: Hamburg qualify for the Champions League over two legs against Bröndby Copenhagen (2-0 and 0-0). The Group E opponents are Juventus Turin, Deportivo la Coruna und Panathinaikos Athens

Not too bad really, I think :cool: