Olympic candidates this week...

[metroflip73]

SO far, I think Casey has got the nod at starting striker.

What is it about Buddle that could make HIM the starter?

Anyone?

[Shaster]

When Donovan and Beasley starred in U-17 at 1999, both of them made a big push for 2000 Olympics (even though Beasley was crimanally left behind). So we have to assume some very good players in our current U-17 may make some push too.

In the forward spots, we may not need a McBride type forward if we can build the attacks out of the back. So if some of big type forwards who can have a good foot skill that will be better for us. Three players--Casey, Buddle and E. Johnson are fit into this mode. In other slashing forward spot, we have Donovan, Quaranta and Magee. This team will be Donovan's team so we can build the foundation for 2006. So if Donovan is in forward, then Martino, Convey (or Memo and Freddy) will play the a-mid. Or if Donovan plays a-mid, we can start two of forwards from 5 of above with Martino and Co. as backup.

In the wings, we can see Beasley starting on the left with Davis and Mapp as backup competitors. For making the team, one of them may want to work on in left back or even better on right wing. Right now, there is no established right midfielder now. But apparently Barclay, Quaranta, D. Joshson are can play for this one.

The d-mid is the weakest position for last U-20, but get stronger in this U-20 with Clarke and Stone. Expect them make the jump.

Wing backs are also a problem. Onyewu better to find a club he can play RIGHT NOW. The current U-20 seems better than last one on left wing and of course the center too.

Center defense are wide open right now. Gary is the only one who is playing in first team right now.

[Sandon Mibut]

Originally posted by Shaster
When Donovan and Beasley starred in U-17 at 1999, both of them made a big push for 2000 Olympics (even though Beasley was crimanally left behind). So we have to assume some very good players in our current U-17 may make some push too.
While it's certainly not impossible that one of the current U17s could make the Athens squad, I think it is doubtful.

While I'm aware that Casey, Donovan and Beasley (for 2000 qualifying) "played up" with the 23s the last cycle, that is largely in part because most of the players in that U23 cycle didn't have much pro experience.

Here's a look at the players from the last pool, excluding the over-age players.

Chris Albright - 99
DaMarcus Beasley (qualifying only) - 99
Adin Brown (qualifying only) - 2000
Dan Califf - 2000
Conor Casey - 2001
Steve Cherundolo (qualifying only) - 1999
Ramiro Corrales - 1995
Eric Denton (qualifying only) - 2000
Joey DiGiamarino (Olympics only) - 1998
Landon Donovan - 1999
Brian Dunseth - 1998
Tim Howard - 1998
Chad McCarty - 1998
John O'Brien - 1997
Ben Olsen - 1998
John Thorrington (qualifying only) - 1999
Pete Vagenas - 2000
Sasho Victorine (Olympics only) - 2000
Evan Whitfield (Olympics only) - 2000
Brian Winters (qualifying only) - 2000
Josh Wolff - 1998

Look how many players became pros either the year of the Olympics or the year before. Now, compare that to the pro experience of the current U23 pool.

Most of the team turned pro 2-3 (at least) years before the 2004 Olympics giving them a big leg up on the younger players like Guillermo Gonzalez and Arturo Alvarez, etc...

Now, I'm not saying it won't happen. I mean, if a Gonzalez or Spector turns pro next year and cranks it up, perhaps they'll make it, but I think it's unlikely.

I would say that as we speak there are only about 5 spots on the 04 Olympic team that are up for grabs and could be taken by a player who is currently not a professional player:

*One of the GK spots - Presuming he's healthy, DJ Countess will get one of the GK spots with the other one likey to go to either Doug Warren (Clemson) or Steve Cronin (Santa Clara), though there are several other college GKs who could be considered if their pro careers get off to a good start next year or even in 2004.

*Starting Left back - Phil Salyer is a frontrunner for this spot because he's already a pro but he's certainly not a lock. Ricky Lewis (Clemson) and Chefik Simo (Furman) both could make a run for this spot though Fimo is only a freshman and would have to turn pro fairly soon.

*A starting central defender, maybe - Kelly Gray, Alex Yi, Frankie Simek, Nelson Akwari and, yes, Zak Whitbred, are all frontrunners for these spots and could take both starting spots and a reserve center back spot. But, if there is a center back spot up for grabs that won't go to a current pro player, David Stokes (North Carolina), Chad Marshall (Stanford) and Ryan Cochrane (Santa Clara) are the front-runners, though current U17 stud Jon Spector could play up.

*Reserve defenders - With an 18-man roster, we're realistically looking at a back-up center back and a back-up wing-back. The center back will almost certainly be one of the players listed in the above list who doesn't start. If Salyer starts at left back, the versatile Lewis could be the reserve wing back. However, another candidate is another one who could play up and that is Hunter Freeman (Virginia) an 85 who can play either flank and, like Lewis, in the middle. However, if Lewis, as expected, turns pro this winter, he'll likely have a leg up on Freeman unless he leaves school after one semester.

*Defensive midfield - It will be considered a surpsie if Ricardo Clark (Furman) isn't either the starting or the backup D-mid. But, he is by no means a lock with potential competition coming from current pros like Jordan Stone, Jesus Ochoa, Kyle Beckerman and David Johnson.

*Right mid - This will likely go to a current pro who is coverted from forward - Santino Quaranta, Devin Barclay - or the other side of midfield - Bobby Convey, Brad Davis. But, non pros who could make a run are Adolfo Gregorio (UCLA), Marcus Storey (North Carolina) and if you want a darkhorse, Matt McCausland (San Diego.) Current U17 right mid John DiRmaindo is reportedly a superb crosser and he could be one of the few people who would be playin up who has a chance.

So while a player playing up isn't impossible, chances are pretty slim that it will happen this cycle.

[Emile]

It seems like Buddle has been continually undervalued. In the 2001 MLS draft, despite being a P-40 and having solid A-League credentials, he was shockingly passed over until the 27th pick (I wonder if the Metros people leap out of bed at night remembering taking Kerwyn "The Hardest" Jemmott at 26 instead of the local kid). I can't but help but think he was saddled with some negative impressions about his coachability, work habits or teamwork that have not yet been completely dislodged.

Mind you, I'm not saying that I think any of that is true, just a possible explanation for his consistently being underrated.

[DigitalTron]

Originally posted by Sandon Mibut
Based, exactly, on what? The 12 minutes of MLS experience he's gained this year? Ahh the passion of big soccer. :)

Sandon, as you know, I think you deserve to be an All-Star. In fact, I cannot think of anyone that deserves it more. But, on this issue we disagree.

Nope, I'm not basing my assessment on Mapp's 12 minutes of MLS. But, let's explain why he has had so few minutes in MLS. The guy has been playing with the U-20's and done well, the same thing that Brad Davis did a year and two years ago. Davis played forward more than winger, but can play either. As a forward, he had bigger stats. Mapp is still finishing High School, and wasn't in preseason, or even with United until very recently for more than a couple of days at a time. So, no, I'm not basing it on the few minutes he played after moving from High School/U-20 games into the final quarter of an MLS season without any preseason or season to train, get accustomed to the speed change, his teammates, the coach, a more defensive role, etc.

I think in the U-17's big games he displayed a lot of technical ability. In the MLS Pre-SuperDraft camp he showed fantastic technical ability--more than Davis. Since then, Mapp has played for the U-20's and done well.

Both Davis and Mapp are big (5'11 each) and fast (Mapp is a little faster IMHO) and technically skilled left footers. Mapp's biggest weakness is that he really doesn't have a good right foot, whereas Davis does. But, I see Mapp as having Preki-like talent. He has the ability to cut back amazingly quickly and release a pass, cross or shot faster than most.

I don't really have much faith that Rongen or Dave Dir will turn either player into a defender. I similarly don't expect Zambrano to do that. But, if there is one thing I must give Hudson credit for, it's his stressing of defense, and I give him credit for Convey's improved defense. Already in the short period of time I've seen Mapp play in MLS, I've seen more defensive effort than he usually displays. So, I think Mapp will become the better defender and the more dangerous passer.

I think Davis has outstanding talent. In fact, I listed him as a sleeper for the national team (despite being a sub for the US Youth team) and a future Kreis-type player. I think that is true, but Davis is more athletic than Kreis.

But, I think Mapp will prove to be the more effective winger on both sides of the ball. I realize that you do not agree. That's cool, intelligent discussion is the joy that is big soccer. :)

-Tron

[DigitalTron]

Sandon, great list of candidates. I don't think any of the U-17's will make the roster. I'm glad to see you giving some props to two 18's I think are very good though, Hunter Freeman and Arturo Alvarez.

There are simply too many good attackers for Arturo to make it, but Freeman--an extremely versatile player who can play any back or midfield position except central attacking midfielder--has a chance. Freeman is so incredibly advanced tactically for his age, adapts so well, and has the physical gifts, that I could see him having a shot.

I agree with Ricardo Clark being a lock. But I don't think either Gregorio or Storey really have a chance. Those two still have a lot to learn before I'm comfortable that they can handle the next level.

In addition to your excellent analysis, another reason that Donovan and DaMarcus were in the mix was that at that time they were the first of the Bradenton Bolitieri Academy class, and while not professional at that time, had individual attention and played consistently at a high and motivated level every day basically year round. IMHO, there is no better situation for a player that age than that. If they're on a pro side they get less attention and less game time activity. Realizing this they're probably less motivated day-in and day-out.

-Tron

[fidlerre]

buddle starts in the right midfield position and scores tonight in the crew/kc open cup game.

he is constantly in the flow of the play and was very dangerous on many occasions, created another goal tonight with his sheer hustle to fight for and beat meola to the ball and then made the assist.

he is a beast, and it seems everytime he gets on the field he scores and makes things happen. he will not be left off the olympic squad, there is no way barring a drop off in form in the next few years and i can only see him getting better baring injury.

[Preston North End]

Mapp has been playing with the U20's because he isn't playing in MLS. He hasn't been playing in MLS because he's been with the U20's. Otherwise Quaranta and Convey would've seen more time with the U20's this year.

If I had to come up with a 25-man player pool (18-man roster is indicated by *), this it would it would look like...

GK - *Countess, *Cronin (Santa Clara-SO), and Warren (Clemson-SR).

DF - *Akwari, *Burciaga, Lewis (Clemson-JR), *Onyewu, *Salyer, Stokes (North Carolina-JR), *Whitbred, Wingert (St Johns-JR), and *Yi.

MF - *Beasley, Beckerman, Carroll (Wake Forest-SR), *Clark (Furman-SO), *Convey, *Davis, *Gray, and *Martino.

FW - Barclay, *Buddle, *Casey, *Donovan, and *Quaranta.

I'm only projecting two college players. The rest are pros, though Salyer is playing 3rd Division German soccer.

Cronin could still be in college by 2004, but Warren - along with Jason White and Curtis Spiteri - will not. Cronin needs to turn pro after this year and by signing a Project-40 contract he will get drafted.

Same goes for the other college players in my pool, such as Clark. They will be replaced by an overage player unless they play 1200 or so minutes next year in MLS off the bench and are a potential MLS starter by 2004.

Look at this potential starting line-up: Countess - Onyewu, Yi, Whitbred, Akwari - Quaranta, Gray, Martino, Beasley - Casey, Dononvan.

Only four are not starters for their club at the moment. Countess is injured. Onyewu doesn't have a club, but will in a month or so. Whitbred is starting for the Liverpool U19's and sometimes the Reserves. Casey is injured, but once healthy he probably won't start, but will get a lot of time with Hannover.

This team is going to be laden with pros (it is already) and all of them will be playing first team soccer either in a 1st Division or 2nd Divison come 2004.

There are only ten players (not in the pool above) in the U20's that have a shot in the next year at the U23 squad. All are pros except one. I will list them based on their chances: Ed Johnson, Ned Grabavoy, Craig Capano, Jordan Stone, David Johnson, Frankie Simek, Mike Magee, Miguel Saavedra, Justin Mapp, and Dimi Colon.

If there were more from the U20's they would have been in the U23 squad (a "B" team) that went to England in August. Only Grabavoy - the only one in college - went to England from the ten listed above.

I think if E.Johnson wasn't injured to start the season he would've seen around 1000 minutes this year. He can pass Barclay and move into the pool next year.

Grabavoy has been with the U23's, but is without a doubt a "B" team player with the U23's at the moment.

Saavedra is in the A-League on loan - a good move - and he's playing. If he can see time with Chicago Fire he could move up.

Simek, D. Johnson, and Colon are all receiving training similar to what Donovan and Twellman had. By 2004 they could be good enough to start in MLS (could be now) and could also push for time with the U23's.

Capano has seen time with Chicago, mainly due to injuries. Stone has also seen some minutes with Dallas. Mapp has played 12 minutes. These three are all pretty talented, but there are good example of what happens to U17's that make the jump to MLS. You'd better be more the pretty taleneted. This is why I don't think any current U17's will make the jump from the 2003 U17 World Cup team to the 2004 U23 Oly team. There is even a pretty big jump from the U17 level to the NCAA level.

Mike Magee is interesting. I think he has more talent than Barclay, but he needs MLS training and playing time. Otherwise Barclay will continue to be better than him.

Bottom line, unless you are in MLS now or with an overseas Club (or in their Reserve or U19) side AND playing significant minutes (1200 or so) in 2003 you will not make the U23 Olympic squad.

This U23 team is already better than the 2000 squad minus Agoos, Friedel, and Hejduk. I might even take this squad over the 2000 squad even with the overage players in the picture.

[Preston North End]

Originally posted by fidlerre
buddle starts in the right midfield position and scores tonight in the crew/kc open cup game.

Go to the fcukin' open cup forum and talk about results of any kind please!

[fidlerre]

Originally posted by Preston North End


Go to the fcukin' open cup forum and talk about results of any kind please!

i played it in a safe manor and did not give a result. calm down there, i said he scored but never gave a result, good lord...

[GersMan]

I thought we weren't going to have pseudo-profanity on here anymore?

[Mason16]

Originally posted by Preston North End


Go to the fcukin' open cup forum and talk about results of any kind please!

easy, easy there PNE. No result was given and we're talking about a potential Olympic team player's current form.

The most impressive thing to me about Buddle's goal was the close control and killer instinct I saw. That was a top quality finish if ever there was one.

[HartwickFan]

Yes, Buddle's goal was very impressive. Great skill to beat his defender 1 v. 1 and a great finish -- it was perfectly executed. Buddle still seems somewhat rough around the edges (which is natural, since he's only 20), and only time will tell if he continues to improve. I also like his work rate -- he ran all night and worked like a dog. Definitely does not have Donovan and Mathis's tendency to drift in and out of games (although Donovan has been doing less and less of this, IMHO).

Olympics could be a great opportunity for Buddle -- as I recall, Wolff was absent from the senior nats until he had a great showing in the olympics, which earned him consistent callups. Maybe Buddle can do the same.

[Preston North End]

Originally posted by fidlerre


i played it in a safe manor and did not give a result. calm down there, i said he scored but never gave a result, good lord...

I had not watched the game when you made your post.

Since everybody here feels its ok to give out details, but not the end result, I'll do the same with my explanation.

Knowing Kansas City were up by one before Buddle scored kind of took away the excitement - I knew Columbus would at worst level the game or if Kansas City were to score again Columbus would get back into it.

Since you knew how the game played itself out in the first half fidlerre, Buddle's goal was significant to the excitement of the game. This is why results and details of a match should be discussed in a results thread. Not divulging details - I think a goal being scored in a game is a huge detail - so people can enjoy the game as if watching it live allows for the excitement/aticipation of watching a match live. You did not play it in a safe manner. Scoring a goal as a huge effect on the result of a match.

Yes, there is a definite fine line here. How long do we have to wait in this thread to discuss the performance of an U23 player? Say Conor Casey gets a hattrick in his return for Hannover and that match is televised on FSW. I record and watch, easily, 10 matches per week. It's difficult not to run into a result here and there before I see them all. But to get into the details - again, I think goals are a huge detail - of a match so soon after it is completed is not right.

I'll end with this question. How soon after the completion of match can details and results be discussed in a thread not directly tied to the game (result) thread?

[TexanSoccer06]

Originally posted by Sandon Mibut
*Defensive midfield - It will be considered a surpsie if Ricardo Clark (Furman) isn't either the starting or the backup D-mid. But, he is by no means a lock with potential competition coming from current pros like Jordan Stone, Jesus Ochoa, Kyle Beckerman and David Johnson.
I'd add Brian Carroll to this list. I know he'll need to go pro after this season to stay in the running for a spot, but he's played pretty well this year with the 23's and has been called in for every U-23 camp.

[beineke]

PNE, I agree with your point about the match results. If somebody's taping a game, they probably don't want to hear anything about it.

I think the problem is that I should have put an [R] on the thread when I started it. Given the subject matter, it's only natural to follow up with descriptions of additional games.

[The Wanderer]

It's between Buddle and Casey for the big forward spot. When Casey gets healthy, if he starts scoring for Hannover and playing a considerable role in their offense, then I think you'll see Casey get the nod in the long run. But a lot's going to depend on how the players play in 2004 also, and I'm not so sure we can look that far into the future. Buddle could be in the Bundesliga by then. Or Casey could be with Dortmund :)

Nice to have competition, huh?

Biggest concern as usual is getting quality defenders w/pro experience out there. A lot of the promising guys are still going 1 v 1 vs. college forwards and are in roles where they don't have to distribute that much. Hopefully by 2008 that won't be a problem :)

[Shaster]

While it's certainly not impossible that one of the current U17s could make the Athens squad, I think it is doubtful.

After I watched how Freddy Adu dribbles, I think that he will make the team as a late offensive sub.


*One of the GK spots - Presuming he's healthy, DJ Countess will get one of the GK spots with the other one likey to go to either Doug Warren (Clemson) or Steve Cronin (Santa Clara), though there are several other college GKs who could be considered if their pro careers get off to a good start next year or even in 2004.

See if Bruce Arena wants to prepare this team for 2006, he may take Tim Howard (if he will be the first goalkeeper in World Cup) and give him experience. Last Olympics, we had Freidal there without bring a college keeper.


*Starting Left back - Phil Salyer is a frontrunner for this spot because he's already a pro but he's certainly not a lock. Ricky Lewis (Clemson) and Chefik Simo (Furman) both could make a run for this spot though Fimo is only a freshman and would have to turn pro fairly soon.

I bet that since we have a LOT of good attackers, some of them in the left side midfield may begin to play some of left back role to able to win a spot. So if we cannot get a MLS starting left back, we may have an overage player for this position. Such as Gbandi or someone else who fit Arena's plan for 2006. I watched Salyer's game and his skill set didn't impress me too much. Never see Lewis, but Simo was very good based on his U-17 games I saw.


*A starting central defender, maybe - Kelly Gray, Alex Yi, Frankie Simek, Nelson Akwari and, yes, Zak Whitbred, are all frontrunners for these spots and could take both starting spots and a reserve center back spot. But, if there is a center back spot up for grabs that won't go to a current pro player, David Stokes (North Carolina), Chad Marshall (Stanford) and Ryan Cochrane (Santa Clara) are the front-runners, though current U17 stud Jon Spector could play up.

Whoever they are, if they don't play in first team soccer, they will lose out. Based on two games of Akwari, I don't know if he can play as a center defender. He is kind of too short. Those spots are wide open, but if they are not playing regularly in 2003, then forget about making the team.

*Defensive midfield - It will be considered a surpsie if Ricardo Clark (Furman) isn't either the starting or the backup D-mid. But, he is by no means a lock with potential competition coming from current pros like Jordan Stone, Jesus Ochoa, Kyle Beckerman and David Johnson.
[/B]

Then Clark needs to move into PRO right now.

[DigitalTron]

Originally posted by The Wanderer
It's between Buddle and Casey for the big forward spot. Well if it becomes that clear cut I think we'll see Casey, but I don't think it will. I see Johnson and Casey as locks up top with Donovan. I'd bet that both Santino and Buddle will see time in midfield as well as up top.

Also, everyone is forgetting about injuries. IMHO, the big guns at forward that will be left out will be the ones that are injured. Every season we see injuries in all 3 lines, and the Olympics will be no different.

-Tron

[Sachin]

Am I the only one who's concerned that many of our top Olympic prospects are still amateurs?

Sachin