Relegation in the US?

[guado]

There's no first division in baseball

but there's major and minor leagues... even though most of teh minor league are afiiliated to the teams in the majors. relegations a bad idea right now. teams would lose much of their fanbase if their team were to fall. if it happened there would be more teams that end up like tampa bay and miami.

[jeffconn]

Pro/rel MIGHT work in the PDL, but only on a regional basis. The PDL has finally gotten a critical mass of clubs spread out all over North America (more than 50). The PDL is now divided in 4 conferences, and 8 divisions. (To make it less confusing, i'd rename divisions to regions.)

http://www.uslsoccer.com/standings/28238.html

Presently in the Heartland, there are 10 clubs. If in 2005, 2 more clubs in this region of North America wish to join the PDL, place 2004's top 6 clubs in Heartland-1, place the bottom 4 clubs in Heartland-2, and add the 2 new clubs to Heartland-2. After every season, you will promote just one club from H-2 to H-1 and relegate one club from H-1 to H-2.

The pluses i see in this plan:
1. Since there is promotion only within the region, the travel costs stay low. Definitely a plus, with the limited budgets of PDL clubs.
2. You can still have rivalries with local clubs. How great would it be to beat the other club in your state to promotion, or razz them when they are relegated.
3. Fewer blowouts. The teams that aspire to be big clubs would more than likely be in H-1; the teams that are happy being developmental squads would probably be in H-2.
4. Placing the new clubs in H-2 would force them to be more fiscally responsible, and also give the new club a realistic hope for more wins their first season. It also wouldn't penalize older clubs, because the newer clubs would have to earn their way up the ladder.

I realize this plan wouldn't work for all of the PDL. The Southeast, Northwest, and Southwest just don't have enough clubs to think of making Division 1 and Division 2 yet. If the PDL wanted to make a post-season playoff for PDL Division 2, that wouldn't work well until all 8 regions had a 2nd division.

As for the MLS/A-League/PSL, pro/rel won't work until there are a LOT more stable clubs in those 3 divisions. There isn't the critical mass yet.

[Fevernova99]

Relegation works fairly well in the 5 major leagues of europe, but there are many many other leagues in the world where relegation brings controversy and problems. Promotion/Rel changes the income to a team, in many countries it is not unheard of to spend some money on opponents so the result would go their way. Also in Brazil I heard a few years ago a team took the league to court and sued over them being relegated. In scotland there is a team being denied a promotion because their stadium did not have the amount of seats required.

[sokkerluver]

Team's that get relegated in the MLS will have to fold because they need all the $ they can get!

[Auxodium]

but there's major and minor leagues... even though most of teh minor league are afiiliated to the teams in the majors. relegations a bad idea right now. teams would lose much of their fanbase if their team were to fall. if it happened there would be more teams that end up like tampa bay and miami.


Too bad: "that's the way the cookie crumbles" goes the saying

Promotion and Relegation would liven up the end stages of the season. Everyone would talk about the top teams winning the league but also talk of survival would spruce up the league.

[billf]

Okay, so you end up with like six teams left and no league to have promotion and relegation work. Seriously the way sports work here, a big team going down would kill the league.

[Scarecrow]

I don't think rel. could work in Baseball, not with all the MLB teams that have affiliations with the minor league teams. That and the fact that there would be an issue of putting in Major League Stadiums.

Hockey is interesting, I think with the new league forming and the AHL it could be done, but first the NHL would have to contract down to make the league more competitive. Too many teams in the league right now.

NFL no way. Just don't see that happening. Arena and AFL2 would be good to see it there, but the NFL?? No way, unless they start calling some of these "college" teams what they are, pro's.

NBA, same as with the NHL too many teams already in the NBA, further there isn't a solid minor league to work this with. Get a strong minor league and maybe it could be done.

MLS, MLS is actually the best league to try this with. There are established leagues other then MLS that they can work with. There aren't too many teams in MLS, stadiums are in the process of being constructed so that wouldn't be an issue. A-Leauge teams already have followings and they have already shown that they can play against MLS teams. I think A-League and MLS need to sit down and work this out.
MLS needs something to stand out for the American fan. This is a novel concept for US fans. No other league does this. Right now we are used to coaches being fired or players being sent down for a teams failure. Imagine the whole team being relagated?? Yes I see that there are problems with this, but again, I think it is something worth trying.

[billf]

What about the ownershil issues and the fact that most A-League teams feel like they are run out of a garage? An MLS team has a $9 million budget and is a year round operation. Maybe one or two A-League teams seem to be all year operations and none comes close to the MLS budget. Is it worth killing an MLS team just to kill an A-League team the next year? I say no. A league without pro/rel is better than no league at all and despite not having "what the rest of the world has" here, the league managed to form the backbone of a world cup quarter-finalist.

[prk166]

Relegation is a leftover tradition from the days when sports were amatuer, not professional multi-million dollar businesses. Leagues that have it are stuggling to find ways to keep it. It's causing problems with the gap between the top flight and 2nd tier being too great for most clubs to cope with. Leciester's up, then they're down, then they're up, and now they're back in the 1st division. WBA is in the 1st, then they're up, then back in the 1st and now back in the premeirship. The money part of the picture is a HUGE issue. And until that problem is addressed it's no investor in the MLS is going to even want to give it a second thought.

[aloisius]

This is such an ignorant and wrong post, i just don't have the time to write in detail why. I know richard likes doing that.
But relegation is there to stay in Europe. Any league without it would be a huge (finacial) bust.

[Wide Boy]

Relegation is a leftover tradition from the days when sports were amatuer, not professional multi-million dollar businesses. Leagues that have it are stuggling to find ways to keep it. It's causing problems with the gap between the top flight and 2nd tier being too great for most clubs to cope with. Leciester's up, then they're down, then they're up, and now they're back in the 1st division. WBA is in the 1st, then they're up, then back in the 1st and now back in the premeirship. The money part of the picture is a HUGE issue. And until that problem is addressed it's no investor in the MLS is going to even want to give it a second thought.

Your argument is based on an entirely incorrect premise. It was the development of professional clubs that made promotion and relegation advantageous. Prior to professionalism, there were no competitive leagues. It was a means of integrating new clubs that were wealthy and ambitious into the existing structure, rather than having them develop their own.

Unless you have such clubs (and my understanding is that the USA doesn't) then promotion and relegation aren't going to be relevant.

[Winston Smith]

As discussed before, relegation could work but only if for the time being MLS remained single entity and organised a series of divisions once enough teams had joined.

The problem here is for it to work, it needs to be implemented soon, but the sheer volume of teams required to make it work would require more time... hence the catch 22.

It will probably be in 5-6 years that MLS starts to make a profit, it may be an option from then on for MLS to seek to buy out the other leagues so a 3 or 4 division league can exist that is incorporated into the MLS structure as a whole (like the English League used to be before it got rebadged to the premiership and the championship etc.).

The safest way to introduce promotion/relegation from then on would be to have promotion only for the first few years. Assuming in 5 years MLS div 1 has 14-16 teams, then for the next 2 years the best 2 teams in the A-league are given promotion (and don't have to buy in). When MLS reaches 20, they can then employ a relegation system which clubs may be happier to deal with as the newly promoted sides would be the most likely to go straight down.

This would effectively mean the end of single entity and the draft, however, the league would be stable enough by this stage (otherwise they just wouldn't risk it) and MLS could then become the governing body that decides the regulations and supplies the referees.

As for support and attendance, what team would you rather support? One that's given to you on a plate in the top league? Or one that's brought together by a group of fans and climbs it's way to the top?

[Mancityfan81]

I think a multi-tiered English-style system would be the salvation of American sports, which are not doing very well right now. In football(American rules), all div 1a programs should be made pro sports teams, the relationship similar to what UNAM have going with thier University namesake. In baseball, it would force the Detroit Tigers and Pittsburgh Pirates of the world to spend money to stay in the "top flight", and also allow smaller markets like Florida to retain high level baseball. It could save hockey, allowing high level 'puck' to survive despite currency problems in Canada. pro/rel would be the salvation of the NBA, allowing a culling of the Atlanta Hawks and L.A Clippers. All of this would be predicated on 'college' sports finally dropping this sham of the 'student-athlete' and finally embrace true proffesionalism. :cool: :cool:

[billf]

So having teams go out of business is better for these teams? The owners seem willing to stay in the game and so do fans. When a team loses millions in TV revenue and has to deal with lower attendance in a giant stadium, its hard to stay in business. Plus, were are ignoring one important thing is US sports, the player unions. They'd never let it happen and NCAA teams will not go pro. They have too much of a good deal the way they are. I don't understand why people can't understand that US sports just evolved differently.

[thezone]

As discussed before, relegation could work but only if for the time being MLS remained single entity and organised a series of divisions once enough teams had joined.

The problem here is for it to work, it needs to be implemented soon, but the sheer volume of teams required to make it work would require more time... hence the catch 22.



I think that the catch-22 being described is very accurate. Adding to that, the financial stability needed before entering the financially chaotic scene of promotion/relegation would take time also.

One thing that could be done is to raise the profile of the US Open Cup. The Open Cup provides a "safe" environment for MLS and lower division sides to compete against each other. The tournament is currently a vastly ignored competition, but if teams were given some sort of incentive to win it might become more important. The FA Cup, other than the prestige and glory of winning arguably the greatest club competition in world history, uses the financial boost from advancing deep into the tournament to motivate lower sides and a UEFA cup spot to motivate the big boys.

Any ideas on what to award teams that win the US Open Cup?

[Arsenal_fanUK]

another issue that would help MLS is relegation, and promotion. so when a team comes last in the mls what happens?? they just say 'oh well will have a crack at it next year'?? it should be if you come in the bottem 3 you go down to the next division, otherwise there is nothing to play for nothing the crap teams have to worry about. it will bring new opposition in the mls each year. And if the best sides in the mls get relegated it shows they aint that good, and it would add some drama to it, another reason why europe is leading the way.

Look at the English division 1 (which is now named the COCA-COLA CHAMPIONSHIP) that is a massive league also infact its the 6 best league in the world, and it aint even the premier league remember. What im trying to say is sides who get relegated, in premier league cases the bottom 3 will go down to the COCA COLA CHAMPIONSHIP were they can win that and get preomoted again.

another thing, proove me if im wrong but the us version of the f.a cup say its called the u.s cup or wotever, is it only MLS teams that can take part?
the f.a cup lets all 4 divisions take part, which is wonderful DRAMA, DRAMA being key word because its fun to see these little sides come up agaisnt the elite sides.

later.

[ProfZodiac]

I don't see why baseball couldn't do it, and it would certainly give teams something to play for. It'd be cool. Nice Avatar by the way. I miss the trips down to Dale Mabry to see them play...
I dunno - baseball was why I voted maybe for some sports, but you have to put a limit. No team can drop below AAA, and no AA or A teams can move. Pawtucket could be a feasible team because of the stadium, but Lowell (A) could not. The other problem with this is the farm system. It has to go away, and that won't happen. So, no, pro/rel probably couldn't work.

[Winston Smith]

I think that the catch-22 being described is very accurate. Adding to that, the financial stability needed before entering the financially chaotic scene of promotion/relegation would take time also.

One thing that could be done is to raise the profile of the US Open Cup. The Open Cup provides a "safe" environment for MLS and lower division sides to compete against each other. The tournament is currently a vastly ignored competition, but if teams were given some sort of incentive to win it might become more important. The FA Cup, other than the prestige and glory of winning arguably the greatest club competition in world history, uses the financial boost from advancing deep into the tournament to motivate lower sides and a UEFA cup spot to motivate the big boys.

Any ideas on what to award teams that win the US Open Cup?

The greatest reward would be a spot in a continental cup such as Libertadores or one yet to be created. The Uefa spot definitely enhances the FA cup.

The Open Cup is unique in US sports and needs to be marketed as such. A $1,000,000 incentive should be added instead of the paltry $100,000. But the top flight needs to be more prestigious. As to have an MLS side as high profile as, say, the Washington Red Skins would make the minnows to glory story that much more compelling.

[RichardL]

Relegation is a leftover tradition from the days when sports were amatuer, not professional multi-million dollar businesses.

it's not older than the American tradition of franchises. The football league was never an amateur competition, not has it ever had an amateur team in it.

Relegation was NOT introduced to promote growth, it was brought it as a way of allowing the cream to rise to the top at a time when there were an awful lot of big clbs outside the top division(s).

To say it's a leftover implies that the franchise system is somehow the product of a spoting evolution that hasn't happened elsewhere yet.


Leagues that have it are stuggling to find ways to keep it.

no they are not. There is not one single LEAGUE struggling beause of it.


It's causing problems with the gap between the top flight and 2nd tier being too great for most clubs to cope with.

that's to do with the top clubs being greedy with TV revenues, not promotion. Exactly the same thing is now happening at the top of the divisions with clubs chasing champions league TV cash. If clubs could realise they need to distribute the TV cash better then such dcrepancies in TV cash wouldn't exist.

Leciester's up, then they're down, then they're up, and now they're back in the 1st division. WBA is in the 1st, then they're up, then back in the 1st and now back in the premeirship.

OK, so you tell me which of those two clubs deserves to be in the premiership? I'd take the one who just one promotion. Who would you pick and why?


The money part of the picture is a HUGE issue. And until that problem is addressed it's no investor in the MLS is going to even want to give it a second thought.
that's the main issue over there and I've no problem at all in saying it's not remeotely feasible over there as things stand. But that's no reason at all to say it it's not working over here. I've yet to see or hear one single person over hear discussing even the possiblity of it being scrapped.

[M]

another issue that would help MLS is relegation, and promotion. so when a team comes last in the mls what happens?? they just say 'oh well will have a crack at it next year'?? it should be if you come in the bottem 3 you go down to the next division, otherwise there is nothing to play for nothing the crap teams have to worry about. it will bring new opposition in the mls each year. And if the best sides in the mls get relegated it shows they aint that good, and it would add some drama to it, another reason why europe is leading the way.


Actually. it's worse than that. They say "you failed, so here's a reward for your failure: the first choice in the draft for new players". Truly bizarre.

I only have to look over on the MLS board and its discussions of how boring the "regular" MLS season is to make me glad that leagues I'm interested in use pro/rel. It's a huge factor in keeping interest going, both in the top division and the leagues below it. Without pro/rel the lower leagues in England would be far less popular and the sport far weaker than it is now. I realize that pro/rel will never happen in the US, but its leagues are less interesting for it.