Relegation in the US? [Archive] - Page 2

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Ron Keller

23 Jul 2004, 03:45 PM

Whoops. Looks like sprodi said some of the same things I did. That's what I get for not reading all the way through the thread.

Jabinho

23 Jul 2004, 09:57 PM

I don't see why baseball couldn't do it, and it would certainly give teams something to play for. It'd be cool. Nice Avatar by the way. I miss the trips down to Dale Mabry to see them play...I could give you several reasons why it wouldn't work here even with baseball. For one, imagine dealing with a stadium issue. Say for example, Salt Lake's baseball team suddenly became top division. Well the stadium they are using would not support something like that numbers wise to get the kinda revenue needed to "stay-up" and pay the higher saleries (TV doesn't do it all in baseball). Now say they, or any other small team, builds a large stadium then they get relegated. It costs a WHOLE lot more money to maintain and operate that larger stadium you now have that is suddenly not getting very many fans and you are in worse shape than you were before you went up in the first place.

ZeekLTK

23 Jul 2004, 11:56 PM

If they did it would have to be very well thought out and it would have to give the teams who are in danger of being "relegated" a decent/good chance of staying in the top league. I don't care how bad the Tigers or Lions play, just because they have one (or maybe even a few consecutive) bad seasons does not mean they should get kicked out of the league and some "nobody" team, who hasn't done anything except win some no-talent minor league championship, should get to replace them.

ZeekLTK

24 Jul 2004, 12:07 AM

I mean look at this year in the NBA. Orlando would get relegated right? So now you are going to send a team with Steve Francis, Grant Hill, Keith Bogans, Cuttino Mobley, Jameer Nelson, and Tony Battie to play against some minor league teams...

And then Chicago had the 2nd worst record. Let's send Scottie Pippen, Jamal Crawford, Luol Deng, Antonio Davis, Chris Duhon, Kendall Gill, Ben Gordon, Kirk Hinrich, and Eddy Curry to beat up the minor league teams as well. Yeah, that'll really be fair.

Jabinho

24 Jul 2004, 12:11 AM

mpruitt

24 Jul 2004, 12:14 AM

But by the same token, the same investment prospects for the clubs in the minors perk up considerably.

Promotion/Relegation would be a tremendous boon to professional baseball, I am 100% sure of it. It solves so many problems it's amazing they've yet to dabble with the idea.
I think the whole structure of minor league baseball as a feeder system is prohibative to it. Plus possiably they're scared that people will stop showing up to 'Division AA' baseball when it's not about the hot young prospect skyrocketing into the major and instead the chance to move up into 'Division AAA.'

Promotion and relegation could also work really easily and well in NASCAR. I don't know much about the sport but doesn't it already kind of exist. Nextel Cup guys will race in the Busch Series, and the better Busch Series guys work their way up? Though I'm not sure the worst Nextel Cup point guys get 'relegated.' Anyone know what happens there?

RichardL

24 Jul 2004, 05:38 AM

Promo/Rel will work with US Soccer leagues but not until there is a significant amount of teams in MLS. I would think that if MLS expands, successfully, to 20 teams, the system could work.....

The other leagues in the world can have a system like this because of the length of time these leagues/teams have existed.

other countries can do it because of the large number of clubs outside their top divisions who are feasible candidates for entry. The US has 1 potential candidate. Until the US has at least 10 A-League teams of Rochester's size it makes no difference how many clubs MLS has. There's no point even thinking about opening the door until you have people knocking to come in.

Wide Boy

24 Jul 2004, 06:45 AM

other countries can do it because of the large number of clubs outside their top divisions who are feasible candidates for entry. The US has 1 potential candidate. Until the US has at least 10 A-League teams of Rochester's size it makes no difference how many clubs MLS has. There's no point even thinking about opening the door until you have people knocking to come in.

I agree with RichardL. Promotion/relegation isn't an end in itself. It was introduced to meet the demand from clubs who are able to play at a higher level. Unless you have such clubs then the issue doesn't really arise.

bright

24 Jul 2004, 07:45 AM

I think pro/rel would work for baseball by splitting up the major leagues into a higher and lower league, and leaving the farm system as it is. It would be something like MLB I and MLB II with 16 teams apiece. There is already a perception that some teams belong in a higher category compared to other teams, so I don't think it would come as too much of a shock to fans if this kind of change took place.

- Paul

CoachCoach

24 Jul 2004, 08:25 AM

Agree with RichardL and Bright.

Bright, although i agree with you, the thing is with baseball, is it so entrenched in tradition that there is no way anyone would make such a change to format. I mean, remember the fit everyone threw when they started inter-league games, and that is a minor change compared to "classifiying" teams as Tier 1 or Tier 2.

But back to the thread..... Although I am a big fan of the pro/rel concept, it won't work for American Soccer until enough teams exist that can financially support a move to a higher division. (such as having the ability to accomodate big audiences---meaning we need enough teams that have at least 10,000 seat stadiums, etc....just not gonna happen anytime soon.) And, we must consider the fickle investor who might bail if the team drops. Just too unstable of an environment. Maybe 20 years from now...maybe 50, if the league is still around. Demand will need to be so overwelming for this to happen.

EvanJ

24 Jul 2004, 10:59 AM

Promotion and relegation could also work really easily and well in NASCAR. I don't know much about the sport but doesn't it already kind of exist. Nextel Cup guys will race in the Busch Series, and the better Busch Series guys work their way up? Though I'm not sure the worst Nextel Cup point guys get 'relegated.' Anyone know what happens there?
NASCAR does not have any mandatory promotion and relegation. NASCAR has multiple levels:
1. Race at your local track and have a career other than racing (0.25 mile Riverhead Raceway is the example near me)
2. Regional Touring Series (example: Feathelite Modified): Race within a region of the country at some tracks the biggest three series race at and some smaller tracks (rarely or never on TV)
3. Craftsman Truck Series
4. Busch Grand National Series
5. Nextel Cup Series (formerly Winston Cup, title sponsor changed)
A Nextel Cup driver could end up back in the Busch Grand National or Craftsman Truck series. Examples of that would be Ron Hornaday and Johnny Sauter in the Busch Series standings at http://www.nascar.com/races/bg/2004/data/standings_official.html
Greg Biffle, Michael Waltrip, and Robby Gordon are Nextel Cup and Busch Grand National series regulars this year. During the beginning and end of the season, the Nextel Cup series normally races on Sunday and the Busch series on Saturday at the same track. During the middle of the season it is more likely for those two series to be at different tracks in the same weekend. You can look at:
http://www.nascar.com/races/bg/2004/data/standings_official.html
http://www.nascar.com/races/bg/2004/data/standings_official.html
http://www.nascar.com/races/truck/2004/data/standings_official.html to compare how much money you make in the top three series.

billf

24 Jul 2004, 11:27 AM

If MLS gets to a point where it has 20 teams who buy into the league either through single-entity or by buying a traditional franchise if SEM is dumped some day, what is the benefit to the MLS teams paying their fee and setting up the team's infastructure just to find themselves playing in the A-League the next season and being replaced by a second-rate team that didn't have to risk anything to join the league? There just isn't anything in it. Even if soccer was strong enough to survive this in principle, when the league is at a point that it can get a decent TV deal, the loss of one large market team to relegation could sink the tv deal for everyone and possibly sink the big market team finacially.

In an ideal world, pro/rel is great. In the US sports landscape, I don't see how it works. While it might make ivesting in an A-League team more attractive, it hurts MLS's ability to attract investors. I also think it could make the already volitile pro-soccer landscape even more volitile when owners spend heavily in a lower league team to move up, to find it can't compete or keep up with ambitions. Look at an English club like Leeds and an A-League team like Edmonton. The scale between the two is different, but both found their ambitions above their means. Before MLS started, the APSL shrunk to about six teams while trying to get D-1 status prior to merging with the USL creating the A-League.

I like pro-rel for regional minor leagues though. The old USISL model could be successful for creating this sort of set up.

j&bontherock

24 Jul 2004, 11:35 AM

j&bontherock

24 Jul 2004, 11:39 AM

We should change the name of MLS to UPL ( US Premiere League ), it sounds very cool, isn't it ?

Soccer_Lancer

24 Jul 2004, 12:20 PM

We should change the name of MLS to UPL ( US Premiere League ), it sounds very cool, isn't it ?

Yeah, it is cool.

In american pro/rel, new teams would go into the lower divisions and work their way up, not the other way around.

TV contracts would only go to the top division so the second division (and the teams in it) would eventually go away.

The way baseball works now (with the Majors and the Minors (AAA, AA and A)) would work better for soccer. MLS teams need to create A-League and PDL teams and pro/rel the players from one to the other. Also, put the teams in different cities so as to expand the reach of soccer.

mellon002

24 Jul 2004, 04:09 PM

MLS still needs to build a fan base, not have a few teams be dropped from MLS every year.

Nepal Footy

24 Jul 2004, 04:32 PM

I agree with bright - pro/rel has to be done within the framework of MLS. MLS needs to expand to 20+ teams and then divide into 2 divisions (MLS & MLS2).

There is no way MLS investors are simply going to let A-league join their setup. I myself, as a "eurosnob," wouldn not let it happen if I owned an MLS club.

To all those who say pro/rel won't work in America because of our culture... Well what about Japan? They added J2 and are looking to start a J3 by the end of the decade. Last time I checked Japanese baseball does not have pro/rel. Not sure about Sumo Wrestling :-) So the "culture" argument is a load of crap.

Korea also added a K2 (though I think they are waiting a few years to link it up with the K-League)

Robert25

24 Jul 2004, 08:53 PM

I think the promotion and relegation adds a lot to the European leagues. Fans can concievably watch their team rise and fall, and this is such a strong basis for their support.

However given the natur of soccer in the US, I am not sure it would work. Who would invest so much money in a team, only to be unsure of its chance of being relegated to a smaller league? For the moment it looks like the current system has to remain at least until there is a stronger standing. perhaps people would love to see their local teams have a chance to rise to the top. And teams in the MLS would feel what every EPL, La Liga, Serie A, and Bundesliga team does, the desire to finish above the relegation zone and continue in the top flight.

Auxodium

25 Jul 2004, 12:25 PM

i think it would make clubs in the MLS work harder and improve their woeful goal differences (look at all time tables and you will see) It would tie the first division in with the MLS but call A League MLS Division 1 to tie the 2 leagues together.

I hope the APL does the same eventually in Australia

irishrepublican1916

25 Jul 2004, 07:05 PM

i think relegation would work in the us look at the rest of the world they all have got relegation and promotion thats what is wrong with the americans they are scared to see a team go down thats what is the matter with them,
i wonder do they understand the game properly cause over at our end we know what the game is about football or soccer as you call it is a game of skill the greatest sport on earth so come on tell the teams to get the promotion and relegation idea set up just like other sports it would make it more of a competition then people would like to see it