4-3-3

[Service404]

Given the recent offensive lethargy and lack of attacking flow in recent USMNT displays, I think the team should try an attacking, flowing 4-3-3 formation, a la Ajax or the Denmark national team. IMO, Arena has almost all the pieces to fit this formation.

Here's what it could look like:

-----------------------------------Howard, etc.---------------------------

Cherundolo/Hejduk-----Pope/Mastro------------Bocanegra------Gibbs/O'Brien

------Reyna/Armas/Mastro/---------------------------O'Brien/Convey------
------------------------------- Donovan/Mathis---------------------------

Brian West/Brian Mullan---------McBride/Casey/Ching---------------Beasley



In a 3-man midfield, the two withdrawn mids provide cover as Donovan pulls the offensive strings with dangerous forward runs or telling passes to the forward/wing-forwards. The wingers would provide the majority of the offensive ammo for the big targetman, beating their man with pace to the byline and whipping in crosses.

I know what you guys will say about West/Mullan at right, but West has been tearing it up in Norway and coupled with Beasley on the left, the pace down the forward flanks would be a sight to see. IMO, I feel that West can be the next CobiJones.

[United20]

While it may seem that US has the pieces for the 4-3-3, that formation requires a great deal more of running/covering (specifically forwards coming back) each other than most formations. I am not forsure if the US has the skill or athletes to run that formation effectively. I might be wrong. It would be interesting to see how it works against an opponent like Panama or non-WC qualifier.

.............................Any top-three Keeper..............................
Cherundolo...........Pope..............Gibbs..........Bocanegra.........
Donovan.......................Reyna......................O'Briend............
McBride........................Mathis......................Beasley...........

Beasley upfront on the wings would be REAL interesting. But I would
only use this as an experiment against a weak opponent (not underestimating Panama).

[lmorin]

Well, let's see. If the US plays an "attacking" 4-3-3, with the wing attackers being primarily forwards, the US loses every game against decent competition because the ball is not won sufficiently often in the midfield. If it plays a "defensive" 4-3-3, with the wing attackers playing primarily defensive "forward" positions (i.e., they are midfielders), then the US does well because it is playing with a loaded midfield, here known as a 4-5-1. So, yes, I am in favor of it because there is room for Donovan, Gaven, Beasley, Reyna and O'Brien. Seems pretty attacking and flowing to me. In reality, numbers mean nothing. It's who you have on the field.

[E Diddy]

If we did it, (we won't), mine would look like this in Germany:

-------------------Howard----------------------
Dolo----------Gibbs-------Boca------------JOB--
----Donovan--------Reyna-------------Convey--
-----Gaven----------Casey------------Beasley--

After Germany, LD takes Reyna's place, and we have time to develop a right wing between now and then.

Right wing in the next cycle could be Allbright, Gaven, Adu, Gros, or whoever steps up and comes out of nowhere.

This could be the first generation of kicking arse and taking names at the World Cup. But the reason this won't happen most likely is Reyna and JOB's constant state of fitness and injury questions. This formation places ENTIRELY too much responsiblity on Reyna.

[Service404]

Well, let's see. If the US plays an "attacking" 4-3-3, with the wing attackers being primarily forwards, the US loses every game against decent competition because the ball is not won sufficiently often in the midfield. If it plays a "defensive" 4-3-3, with the wing attackers playing primarily defensive "forward" positions (i.e., they are midfielders), then the US does well because it is playing with a loaded midfield, here known as a 4-5-1. So, yes, I am in favor of it because there is room for Donovan, Gaven, Beasley, Reyna and O'Brien. Seems pretty attacking and flowing to me. In reality, numbers mean nothing. It's who you have on the field.

In an attacking 4-3-3, the wingers track back to help retain ball possession in the midfield. In addition, I dont think a lineup of Donovan, GAven, Beasley, REyna, and O'Brien will win the ball that much more than a lineup of Donovan, West/Mullan, Beasley, Reyna, and O'brien.

[Beethovieff]

In an attacking 4-3-3, the wingers track back to help retain ball possession in the midfield. In addition, I dont think a lineup of Donovan, GAven, Beasley, REyna, and O'Brien will win the ball that much more than a lineup of Donovan, West/Mullan, Beasley, Reyna, and O'brien.

I'd like to see this line-up tried at some point because the box midfield at present hasn't been effective at breaking down packed defenses. However, Mullan and West are not the answer on the right wing. Unless West has developed miraculously in Norway, he won't offer international level skills to match his speed. Mullan is a great MLS player who hustles, but again, I don't see him bringing the necessary skill.

I'd rather see Chris Klein as RW than either of those two. I could also see Gaven or Donovan getting a try there:

--------------------GK-------------------
Dolo--------Pope--------Gibbs--------Boca
---------Reyna------------JOB/Mastro----
--------------Mathis/Landon--------------
Landon/Gaven/Klein--------------------DmB
--------------McBride/Casey---------------

[Brushes Sand]

--------------------GK-------------------
Dolo--------Pope--------Gibbs--------Boca
---------Reyna------------JOB/Mastro----
--------------Mathis/Landon--------------
Landon/Gaven/Klein--------------------DmB
--------------McBride/Casey---------------


It's good to see a consensus forming around the backline
of Dolo*/Pope/Gibbs/Boca, and I also think reality dictates
that one should not count on Reyna, JOB and Cletus based
on systemic problems with form and fitness.

Please return back to 433 v 451 discussion...

eol

-bs

[m vann]

I don't care what system Bruce uses as long as he puts the best players out on the field. I do feel that with our depth chart increasing rapidly, Bruce has several systems he could use. I trust Bruce and dno't wory too much about which system he uses. BTW, I love the "box" midfield idea but I'm comfortable with whatever he picks. Except for the 4-6-1 that Sampson used :)

[Elninho]

I don't care what system Bruce uses as long as he puts the best players out on the field. I do feel that with our depth chart increasing rapidly, Bruce has several systems he could use. I trust Bruce and dno't wory too much about which system he uses. BTW, I love the "box" midfield idea but I'm comfortable with whatever he picks. Except for the 4-6-1 that Sampson used :)

You know... if we used a 4-6-1, we really should have won the World Cup. Unless, of course, Sampson used a 4-6-1 with no keeper so as to keep the refs happy... in which case, no wonder we crashed out so quickly.

[UxSxAxfooty]

I suggested this in the "Mathis" thread - a 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation

----------------------McBride---------------------
-----Beasley--------------------------Donovan----
----------------------Mathis----------------------
-------------O'Brien-----------Reyna--------------
Convey-------Bocanegra------Pope------Cherundolo

I gotta think that if we can take that lineup into Saprissa or Azteca, we can come out with points.

[warmblooded]

I suggested this in the "Mathis" thread - a 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation

----------------------McBride---------------------
-----Beasley--------------------------Donovan----
----------------------Mathis----------------------
-------------O'Brien-----------Reyna--------------
Convey-------Bocanegra------Pope------Cherundolo

I gotta think that if we can take that lineup into Saprissa or Azteca, we can come out with points.

That is, as Ruud Gullit would have said, "a sexy line-up." My only question is, who do you pencil in for O'Brien?

[roarksown1]

This is what my 4-3-3 would look like:

--------------- Howard ------------------
-- Dolo -- Pope -- Gibbs -- Bocanegra --
---- Mastro --- Reyna --- O'Brien ---
--- Donovan --- Mathis --- Beasley ---

I love the idea of a left sided attack including Bocanegra, O'Brien (if fit) and DMB. This lineup could get points off any side in CONCACAF, perhaps even the world on a good day.

[Mr Martin]

I suggested this in the "Mathis" thread - a 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation

----------------------McBride---------------------
-----Beasley--------------------------Donovan----
----------------------Mathis----------------------
-------------O'Brien-----------Reyna--------------
Convey-------Bocanegra------Pope------Cherundolo

I gotta think that if we can take that lineup into Saprissa or Azteca, we can come out with points.

Yes, this is on the right track. Also, but later, in the "Mathis" thread, I posted a similar setup, calling it a 4-5-1:

----------------Wolff------------------
Beasley--------Mathis---------Donovan
-------Armas(or Mastro)---Reyna-------
Boca------Gibbs-----Pope---Cherundolo
--------------Keeper(pick a flavor)-----


I assumed that O'Brien would still be injured or not available. But ideally, JOB takes the Armas/Mastro role and strengthens the team even more.

If you followed the Euro04, the Dutch were often listed as playing a 4-5-1 rather than a 4-3-3. Players like Robben (sp?) played as attacking outside mid's, so they were almost like wingers, but not pure, classic wingers. This might suit the US given the current players we have and given who is injured or not in form.

You could even call this a 4-2-4, if you view the front 4 players as a diamond. :cool: The name isn't so important. The roles/responsibilites the players take on are what matters.

[UxSxAxfooty]

That is, as Ruud Gullit would have said, "a sexy line-up." My only question is, who do you pencil in for O'Brien?
Personally, I'd move Convey there and put Bocanegra at left back, adding Gibbs to central defense. Arena would just pencil in Armas.

My O'Brien-less alternative:

--------------------McBride---------------------
--------Beasley------------------Donovan------
--------------Convey-----Mathis----------------
---------------------Reyna----------------------
Bocanegra----Gibbs------Pope-----Cherundolo

[Service404]

----------------Wolff------------------
Beasley--------Mathis---------Donovan
-------Armas(or Mastro)---Reyna-------
Boca------Gibbs-----Pope---Cherundolo
--------------Keeper(pick a flavor)-----


If you followed the Euro04, the Dutch were often listed as playing a 4-5-1 rather than a 4-3-3. Players like Robben (sp?) played as attacking outside mid's, so they were almost like wingers, but not pure, classic wingers. This might suit the US given the current players we have and given who is injured or not in form.

In euro2004, the Dutch were more often than not listed as playing the classic Dutch 4-3-3; robben and van der meyde are as pure and classic as any pair of wingers you'll find today.

The strength of the 4-3-3 system lies in the fact that the offense can flow both through the middle via the attackmidfielder/shadow striker and through the flanks via the outlying wingers. However, with Donovan listed out wide, you lose that flank capacity, as he'll often pinch in towards the middle of the pitch; he isn't cut out to be an attacking winger in either a 4-5-1 or a 4-3-3. LD is better suited to playing that central attack midfielder at the apex of the midfield. What do you guys think about Brian West? From what I've heard, he's been doing tremendously well in Norway and he has the classic winger mentality of beating his man 1v1 with pace to the byline and whipping in crosses.

[E Diddy]

What do you guys think about Brian West? From what I've heard, he's been doing tremendously well in Norway and he has the classic winger mentality of beating his man 1v1 with pace to the byline and whipping in crosses.

Well, Mrs. West, we think he's just fine! lol

[smith07]

I was wondering when the last time someone won a world cup (or even Euro) with 4-3-3.... not a 4-5-1 that we call a 4-3-3, but an actualy 4-3-3???? It is especially not going to happen with BA in charge. Can't we learn from Greece?

[Mr Martin]

In euro2004, the Dutch were more often than not listed as playing the classic Dutch 4-3-3; robben and van der meyde are as pure and classic as any pair of wingers you'll find today.


I don't really want to get into a nit-picking contest. The Dutch are famed for the classic 4-3-3 and have still played it in recent times. Moreover, the opening "formation" is less important than the roles and behavior that the players take on.

However, according to the official UEFA site for Euro 2004, the Dutch seem to have played something that could be called a 4-5-1 in their last three games. Click on the links for each and go to "Tactical Line-up" and pick "Netherlands" to see how UEFA listed the lineups.

Vs. Latvia:
http://www.euro2004.com/tournament/matches/Round=1581/Match=1059186/Report=MS.html

Vs. Sweden:
http://www.euro2004.com/tournament/matches/Round=1582/Match=1059190/Report=MS.html

Vs. Portugal:
http://www.euro2004.com/tournament/matches/Round=1583/Match=1059192/Report=MS.html


UEFA also has the Dutch playing a 4-4-2-ish lineup against Germany, and the classic 4-3-3 against the Czechs.

Again, this is nit-picking. UEFA may show Robben and Overmars as withdrawn wingers, or as attacking flank midfielders, against Portugal. But the flow of the game, the 1v1 matchups, and the scoreline will determine how withdrawn into the midfield Robben or Overmars play, or how far forward they play.

This kind of "look" may suit the US Nat's at the moment, given who we have available.

[abcdefghijklmnopqrst]

what about 3-4-3? Brazil used this in WC02 and it seemed to work.




----------Beasley--------------Mathis------------Twellman
----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------Donovan---------------------
----------------------------------------------------------
------------------Convey----------------Reyna-----------
----------------------------------------------------------
-----O'Brien----------Bocanegra---------Pope--------Gibbs

[soccerhooligan33]

what about 3-4-3? Brazil used this in WC02 and it seemed to work.




----------Beasley--------------Mathis------------Twellman
----------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------Donovan---------------------
----------------------------------------------------------
------------------Convey----------------Reyna-----------
----------------------------------------------------------
-----O'Brien----------Bocanegra---------Pope--------Gibbs

That looks like a 433 to me. Push O'Brien into midfield.