Thoughts on Pablo

[NikeBlues]

It seems that Pablo doesn't get as much respect on here as he deserves. If I remember correctly, during the 2002 WC he was all over the field, shutting down the best and most dangerous attackers on both Portugal and Mexico. He seems much more up to speed at the national level than Chris Armas and others, and it doesnt make sense to me that he is not a mainstay on this team. Any thoughts?

[diablodelsol]

It seems that Pablo doesn't get as much respect on here as he deserves. If I remember correctly, during the 2002 WC he was all over the field, shutting down the best and most dangerous attackers on both Portugal and Mexico. He seems much more up to speed at the national level than Chris Armas and others, and it doesnt make sense to me that he is not a mainstay on this team. Any thoughts?

If I remember correctly, the 2002 world cup was 2 years ago....

[NikeBlues]

If I remember correctly, the 2002 world cup was 2 years ago....



Are you suggesting that in 2004, which would be 2 years after the 2002 world cup, Chris Armas is a better option?

[bunge]

Are you suggesting that in 2004, which would be 2 years after the 2002 world cup, Chris Armas is a better option?

Pablo looked like crap last night. An injured Armas would have been a better choice.

[lurking]

Pablo is a better defender than midfielder. Im not quite sure why people love him so much in midfield. As a defender though, I think hes an interesting player.

[Karl K]

Pablo had an excellent WC, but some players get better, some players stay the same, some regress

Pablo has regressed. A good game against Mexico (in defense) has been followed by howlers (a half at d-mid against Honduras where he was directly responsible for two dangerous attacks) and time at defense in Grenada where two mistakes were instrumental in two goals.

And, against Poland, he was basically ineffective.

So, we'll see. He's got talent and skill, yet the mental errors have been the killers. Folks are enamored of his size and athleticism, but when so much depends on the application of brains, your body can take you only so far.

Armas -- the guy who REALLY gets no respect around here -- in contrast, has gotten better since his knee injury. With an exception or two for the Fire this year, his play has been dynamic, and he was absolutely critical to the Fire's success last year. His runouts for the USMNT have also been generally of high quality.

So, we'll see. Pablo could turn it around, and Armas could wither quickly due to age and mileage. Then again....

[juventino3]

Pablo can still be a very valuable player for the Nats. Bruce needs to realize that he is a better defender than midfielder. When in defense, he is a defender with excellent ball control who is very adept at starting the offense from the back. When he plays dmid he doesn't seem to see the field very well. He loses all his creativity and will always make the easy pass. Plus he seems to get called for stupid fouls as well.

[dcc134]

I have to agree with Karl on this one. While I only got to see the second half, it was almost painful to watch the central midfield play. That pairing was an absolute disaster.

Their positioning was terrible. There were about 4 times where niether of them provided an outlet, or were late getting there, leaving Albright and LD to try and take on 3 players on the sideline.

The inclusion of Mathis to the midfield made all the difference. His understanding of the game is far superior than either of those 2.

Both Pablo and Kerry can play solidly in the midfield, but like armas they both require and more skillful partner.

I now have a greater respect for what Armas bring, however, I'm glad he didn't play in this game. Unfortunately, Bruce didn't exactly put either of his "backup's" in to a position where they really could shine.

[diablodelsol]

Are you suggesting that in 2004, which would be 2 years after the 2002 world cup, Chris Armas is a better option?

not touching this one....

[Karl K]

Both Pablo and Kerry can play solidly in the midfield, but like armas they both require and more skillful partner.

I now have a greater respect for what Armas bring, however, I'm glad he didn't play in this game. Unfortunately, Bruce didn't exactly put either of his "backup's" in to a position where they really could shine.

Recall, though, that the Armas/Zavagnin pairing did quite well against Mexico.

Some guys work together better than others. There is this tendency around here to want the "best 11" on the field, but that's not how you succeed. It's the right combination of the 11 guys.

However, for Pablo, I am not sure that having some other guy out there is the answer right now. I think he will get better though. We need him to get better.

[MLSNHTOWN]

If O'brien and Reyna are both healthy, Armas and Mastro should both sit on home legs in WCQ. Granted the odds of that happening are slim to none.

With regards to this general discussion of Mastro in defense, I don't think he has shown he has what it takes at the international level to play center back (over Pope, Boca, Gibbs and even Berhalter). In midfield he was fine, but when the US had Mastro prior to World Cup 2002, he wasn't up to snuff physically. He wasn't a strong enough presence in the air. He does a good job of reading passes and jumping the pass, but I am not convinced he is ready for defense in the international game unless it is as a right back. Nothing I have seen thus far (Grenada e.g.) indicates otherwise.

[dcc134]

Recall, though, that the Armas/Zavagnin pairing did quite well against Mexico.

Some guys work together better than others. There is this tendency around here to want the "best 11" on the field, but that's not how you succeed. It's the right combination of the 11 guys.

However, for Pablo, I am not sure that having some other guy out there is the answer right now. I think he will get better though. We need him to get better.

I didn't get to see the mexico game, but as was alluded to on another thread, Mexico is a possesion team, so a more defensive posture is effective against them. But when you face a team like Poland, who isn't as concerned with possession, having 2 defensive midfielders is a problem.

However, maybe it also highlights that Armas truely is a far better option than Pablo right now. My biggest problem was how often he was out of position when we had the ball. His role should be to support the offense, but he was always slow getting to where he needed to be.

Its the mental aspect of his game which seemed to be so lacking. At the WC, his role was basically to track a single player, now that his roles seems to be expanding, he is falling short.

[kicker1]

With Claudio Reyna on the field, Pablo will help us win games with his ball winning skills and effective first touch passing.

[Northcal19]

With Claudio Reyna on the field, Pablo will help us win games with his ball winning skills and effective first touch passing.


Pablo plays at his own predetermined rate. He is hugely talented, head and shoulders above Armas. He is fast, skilled, and could be a starting central back, outside back or d-mid. But (and I am a huge fan of his) he plays to the level he thinks he needs. At Rapids games he can be unmotivated, hacky, taking cheap cards and not working very hard. Same with friendlies.

But, at the money games, well he is money. If Bruce can overlook his transgressions during friendlies I think he would be a better center back than Gibbs, a better outside back than Albright, Frankie, Convey and maybe Cherundolo and a better d-mid than anybody else we got. Still, those talented guys who bring it only when they see the need can piss off a coach (see Clint Mathis).

[harttbeat]

Pablo was crapped Sunday. It was like watching Richie Williams slowing down the Metro offense last year. I hope this Zav/Pablo experiment is over.

[drace768]

I think he would be a better center back than Gibbs
So I take it that you have discounted Arena's statement that Gibb's has the potential to surpass Pope as the best defender the US has ever produced. Pablo can play center back, but I seriously doubt he would ever be the first choice USMNT with Pope, Gibbs, Bocanegra already in the picture and Marshall, Spector, Oguchi, coming into the picture.

[onefineesq]

Pablo plays at his own predetermined rate. He is hugely talented, head and shoulders above Armas. He is fast, skilled, and could be a starting central back, outside back or d-mid. But (and I am a huge fan of his) he plays to the level he thinks he needs. At Rapids games he can be unmotivated, hacky, taking cheap cards and not working very hard. Same with friendlies.

But, at the money games, well he is money. If Bruce can overlook his transgressions during friendlies I think he would be a better center back than Gibbs, a better outside back than Albright, Frankie, Convey and maybe Cherundolo and a better d-mid than anybody else we got. Still, those talented guys who bring it only when they see the need can piss off a coach (see Clint Mathis).

He ain't a better centerback than Gibbs. Grenada was a game that counted, and he (Mastroeni) was terrible, and Gibbs was clearly his superior as the other CB.

[Mr Martin]

It's the hair. Pablo hasn't been the same since he cut his locks. :p

Seriously, though. He is a solid reserve player for the current Nat's. If he starts a meaningful game it is because a couple of other better players are probably out for injuries or club conflicts. Not that there is anything wrong with that. He is what he is and has a role to play.

[Karl K]

Pablo plays at his own predetermined rate. He is hugely talented, head and shoulders above Armas. He is fast, skilled, and could be a starting central back, outside back or d-mid. But (and I am a huge fan of his) he plays to the level he thinks he needs. At Rapids games he can be unmotivated, hacky, taking cheap cards and not working very hard. Same with friendlies.

But, at the money games, well he is money. If Bruce can overlook his transgressions during friendlies I think he would be a better center back than Gibbs, a better outside back than Albright, Frankie, Convey and maybe Cherundolo and a better d-mid than anybody else we got. Still, those talented guys who bring it only when they see the need can piss off a coach (see Clint Mathis).

Well, Mexico wasn't a money game (unless it's purely pride)...and he did great there. Grenada was a money game -- sure it was more a lock than not, but it was VERY important -- and he was drek.

If this is true -- which I would doubt -- then this approach is highly unprofessional, and an "I only play hard when I feel like it" attitude that is going to sink a national team career.

From my vantage point across the field, when Pablo sat down on the bench, the body language was all frustration. I give him the benefit of the doubt -- I think he took it very seriously.

Right now, for the positions he plays (CB and DM) he is no higher than third on the depth chart. At central midfield, he may be the 5th or 6th option. He has fallen far from the WC '02.
.

[Northcal19]

So I take it that you have discounted Arena's statement that Gibb's has the potential to surpass Pope as the best defender the US has ever produced. Pablo can play center back, but I seriously doubt he would ever be the first choice USMNT with Pope, Gibbs, Bocanegra already in the picture and Marshall, Spector, Oguchi, coming into the picture.

I am not discounting Arena's opinion, it is a little hard to argue about "potential" and who has more. Both Pablo and Gibbs have only a limited number of appearances at center back for the nats, but IMO based upon only a few appearances for Gibbs but watching Pablo weekly, I think Mastroeni has a ton of talent. How the hell do I know who is going to be "the best US defender ever produced."?

The thing about the guys you mention is if Gibbs/Pablo (one of the two) can settle in the middle of the back line as a starter with Pope, then Boca can move out left where he plays for Fulham. Those other guys: Gooch etc really aren't ready for prime time yet, so I think you are looking at 4 strong center back candidates right now. Of the 4, Pope is hurt a lot, Boca can play wide (so can Pablo), Gibbs has like what; three caps and so that puts Mastroeni firmly in the mix.

And I think he is a better midfielder than center back; witness the WC 2002 and our best finish ever. He was excellent. Many of the posts in this thread center on Pablo going downhill over the last 2 years. I don't see it, but who knows.