Get used to it [R]

[appoo]

OK - I wasn't at my house watching the game, didn't tape it, and have no way of reviewing the play. But I know you to be a fair analyst, NoSix, and I'll take you at your word. The point about it being difficult for defenders to stay on top of things and not mentally take a few seconds off against a bunker, though, is still a fair one, wouldn't you say?

You and I had the same Geometry teacher.
Bocanegra and Howard made the big mistakes on that play. Boca misjudged a ball and was forced to try a back-heel clearance. The ball somehow found its way out on the Howards left side (Poland's right wing) to a Polish defender. Mostly while Albright watched. As the cross was sent in Convey was trying to rush back as a cover for Timmy, but was an instant to late as Howard basically batted the ball down for a Polish player to hit it. And did so just infront of Convey's outstretched leg.

Pope really didn't do anything wrong. You expect Howard to be able to hand that back-pass. He plays for friggin ManU. But that was the initial mistake. The 2nd mistake was Bocanegra missing the cross, the 3rd being Albright ball watching. The 4th was Howards wave at the ball, the 5th (if you can call it a mistake) was Convey being late on the goal

[voros]

Portugal just called. They strongly disagree.
Well, Portugal doesn't use forwards, they just play with 6 midfielders who take turns shooting. :D Oh except when Pauleta plays, then it's five midfielders taking turns shooting while Pauleta stands around and remembers the days when he used to be useful.

But you're right in a sense. How about if we limit ourselves to teams who play two forward setups like we do?

[appoo]

Who cares if Claudio struggles to keep them on frame. There are plenty of examples of midfielders in the modern game that struggled to do the same. Just as I wouldn't bench Viera or Gattuso for that "shortcoming", I wouldn't bench Claudio.
Viera and Gattuso and Thierry Henry, Jose Antonio Reyes, Raul, and Ronaldo as the strikers. We have Josh Wolff and Brian McBride. The majority of our goal scoring oppurtunities seem to end up with an attacking midfielder shooting. If thats going to be the case then we better have attacking midfielders who can actaully force the keeper to make a save. I don't think anyone us truly suggesting to bench Claudio. But asking him to be more accurate with his finishing is fine

[voros]

Let's be fair to the guys as well:

Offense is the hard part. Only two countries have really perfected the art: Brazil and Holland, and Holland tends to forget it pretty often.

So we shouldn't be overly critical. That said, I do think we're behind the curve offensively, even for teams who have their share of offensive struggles.

[AngelN]

Well, a lot of guys are going to get tortured by Justin Mapp before all is said and done. When that kid's on his game, he looks like he should be starting over DaMarcus. But it does bring up a fair point - and one that I'll happily concede. I do like Albright as a RB, but like Cherundolo, not for every situation. When the situation calls for a bigger, taller, more physical player who has enough speed to get by people and deliver very good crosses - he can be that guy.

If you have somebody with Mapp's blazing speed, 'Dolo is probably the best matchup. I just don't think we have a one-size-fits-all RB in our pool. We have to platoon the best option on any given day.

ahem...

Mapp for rightback!

[Sachsen]

The problems that were observed with the Mastroeni/Zavagnin pairing could be resolved with one particular player.

John O'Brien.

According to a very recent Dutch language article posted in one of the Yanks Abroad threads (or was it this forum? I forget and I'm too lazy to go find it) O'Brien is healthy again and is training and regaining his full fitness level with Ajax coaches already, several weeks before official preseason starts.

Shots on frame? Good defense? Holding balls and distributing up front? O'Brien can handle all that better than any of our so-called "d-mids" including Claudio. Assuming he's fully healthy again, I expect to see him in some qualifiers this fall after he's gotten a few Ajax games in.

And won't THAT be a sight for sore eyes.

[Karl K]

I don't know where you get the idea that Pope's backpass was "questionable". The pass was perfectly innocuous, Howard just flubbed it. After heading the ball to the Poles, Albright then stood and watched instead of tracking back wide to mark his man on the flank. Then he couldn't get over in time to prevent the cross that resulted in Howard's second flub. The ironic thing is, if Howard had just let the cross go through, instead of reaching for it, it almost surely would have gone to Convey, or out the other side for a US throw or goal kick. Bocanegra had excellent position goal and ball-side of the eventual goal scorer, but when he saw the cross go behind him, he assumed that Howard would collect the ball and let the Polish attacker go. As my old high school geometry teacher used to say, "When you AssUMe you make an Ass out of U and Me."

This is correct.

Howard's shank was a one touch affair; he had time to take a touch, but reacted with misplaced franticness.

Mullan also got sucked inside I believe and, bunched up, no one on the USA could get over to the crosser.

[Karl K]

The problems that were observed with the Mastroeni/Zavagnin pairing could be resolved with one particular player.

John O'Brien.

According to a very recent Dutch language article posted in one of the Yanks Abroad threads (or was it this forum? I forget and I'm too lazy to go find it) O'Brien is healthy again. . .

True indeed, O'Brien would certainly had value.

But the temperatures might move below 0 degrees centigrade in Hades if ALL of our CMId pool is healthy at the same time. Stay tuned.

[United20]

I disagree. If the team is bunkering, as many of our CONCACAF rivals will likely be doing, I don't think the Armas/Zavagnin combination would be any more effective than Mastro/Zavagnin.

None of these players are particularly good at creating opportunities for other players in international soccer. And against a bunker, that is what you need from your central midfielders.

However, I saw nothing in yesterday's game that would lead me to believe that the Mastro/Zavag combination wouldn't have been every bit as effective against a possession side like Mexico as was the Armas/Zavag combination. In fact, if anything, Mastroeni - who was much better against Mexico in Dallas than Armas - has had Mexico's number. He owned Blanco. He owned Borgetti. I really don't think Mexico would relish seeing Mastroeni anytime soon.

It's all about finding the right tools for the job. A twin d-mid alignment against a bunkered team is hardly what the situation calls for.

You read my post incorrectly. In fact, reading yours it sounded as if we are on the same page. What I said was I DO NOT think a Mastro/Zavag combo is effective. In fact, even if you switch out Armas with any one of those two - it's still a BAD combination. You are absolutely correct in saying that "A twin d-mid alignment against a bunkered team is hardly what the situation calls for." Even if a team is not a bunkered down, the central part of the midfield still should have an offensive minded middle.

As for "using the right tools for the right job". Check the RB situation I was talking about. Arena will be very selective when choosing a RB depending on the opponent

[imasyko]

Brian Ching - Two plays stood out in my mind from yesterday's game WRT Ching. His first touch header that led to a shot ?Wolff? should have put away. The second was his diving left-footed shot with a Polish defender draped on him that forced a good save from SuperCuts. He can set up his teammates, or he can get good shots off in difficult situations. He's been a consistent performer in MLS when healthy. Too bad he's paired with DeRosario this year, or I think he'd be even more productive.
[/list]
[/list]

I was more impressed that Ching held off the Polish defender who was literally climbing up his back, and was able to field the pass, control it and then lay it off to LD and make a run. That was a solid play.

As for Clint, won't he and Steve C be back in Hannover before our next qualifier? Seems unlikely that their club will let them play (or that BA will enter into a tug of war with Hannover at this time, when he may need that leverage in the future)

[Casper]

I may be wrong on this, but didn't Masto play in the back against Mexico...perhaps a position now where he is MORE effective than central midfield?

And while Borgetti did play, Blanco didn't?

Anyway, I saw nothing in yesterday's game from my vantage point at the halfway line at Soldier Field to suggest that the Mastro Zavagnin pairing wouldn't be even MORE suboptimal against a possession style team like Mexico...as opposed to the the Armas/Zavagnin pairing which indeed HAS played v. Mexico and HAS been effective.

Ain't broke, don't fix it.
Yes, Mastro played as a CB against Mexico. Gibbs and Cliff both got injured, and were replaced by Mastro and Kotschau.

I think the broader point is that either a Mastro/Z, Armas/Z or Mastro/Armas pairing lacks some of the offensive firepower we want if we're trying to break someone down. Armas/Z were important against Mexico by finding ways to win possession, and prevent Mexico from doing one of their favorite things - dominating the ball. However, no one we play in a meaningful game until WC '06 will be as good at possession as Mexico. I think one of the reasons that people aren't as jazzed up about Mastro/Z on Sunday is that the game didn't really call for their strengths as d-mids, but instead called for someone who could contribute more to the attack with distribution. Or, as Nutmeg suggests, calls for a diamond midfield. We did have Mullan there, after all.

I don't think we need to get too worried about the effectiveness/ineffectiveness of Mastro/Z together. If any of Reyna, O'Brien, and Armas are present and healthy, I don't think we're going to see that pairing in a WCQ.

I'm not averse to the box midfield at all for the Jamaica road game. For the Panama and El Salvador home games, however, a "just outscore them" lineup might be called for, with someone like Klein, Mullan or Gaven replacing one of the d-mids in the lineup.

[DamonEsquire]

I'll have ponderment on this. I tend to generalize bunker with slowness. Match quicken with pace. Both sides miss oppertunity and this might be different "Bunker" theme. I'll look out for analogy. Also year of defense, as state above. defense in what. I not for sure.

[onefineesq]

As for Clint, won't he and Steve C be back in Hannover before our next qualifier? Seems unlikely that their club will let them play (or that BA will enter into a tug of war with Hannover at this time, when he may need that leverage in the future)

Tug of war? Why? Its a WCQ. Do they even have a choice to not release them? Personally, I don't think that they need to be called in for this game (especially Mathis), but getting them to Jamaica shouldn't be a problem if they are really needed.

[dcc134]

While the midfield pairing was hardly optimal, I'm glad Bruce gave it a try.

If we can all see the drawbacks from his lineup, I'm sure Bruce could see it as well.

As for Albright at right back, I'm very bullish on his potential for that position. Some have questioned his pace, but his entire game offensively was based on his pace. I'm not sure Dolo is any quicker.

[imasyko]

Tug of war? Why? Its a WCQ. Do they even have a choice to not release them? Personally, I don't think that they need to be called in for this game (especially Mathis), but getting them to Jamaica shouldn't be a problem if they are really needed.

Arena has shown the willingness to work with the clubs, particularly European, on the release of players for USMNT games. He has in the past, not chosen players for certain games, so that when he does feel he needs them for a tough qualifier, he will have less opposition from the team coach for the player's release.

Your qualifier, 'if they are really needed', makes me believe that you understand that these coming qualifiers are not that tough, and that Arena won't choose players if he thinks it could affect their standing on their clubs. He wants them playing first team for their clubs to insure their readiness when he does call them up.

[lmorin]

...
I think the broader point is that either a Mastro/Z, Armas/Z or Mastro/Armas pairing lacks some of the offensive firepower we want if we're trying to break someone down. Armas/Z were important against Mexico by finding ways to win possession, and prevent Mexico from doing one of their favorite things - dominating the ball. However, no one we play in a meaningful game until WC '06 will be as good at possession as Mexico. I think one of the reasons that people aren't as jazzed up about Mastro/Z on Sunday is that the game didn't really call for their strengths as d-mids, but instead called for someone who could contribute more to the attack with distribution. Or, as Nutmeg suggests, calls for a diamond midfield. We did have Mullan there, after all.
...
I think this summarizes things correctly. I would add that given the need to keep various club coaches happy around the globe and the likelihood of injuries, have a variety of players able to play in conservative (i.e., defensive) or liberal combinations suits the qualifying scheme quite well. Nothing works better for qualifying than depth. Keeps the quality high while reducing wear and tear on the players.

[braun]

[QUOTE

Your qualifier, 'if they are really needed', makes me believe that you understand that these coming qualifiers are not that tough, and that Arena won't choose players if he thinks it could affect their standing on their clubs. He wants them playing first team for their clubs to insure their readiness when he does call them up.[/QUOTE]

Getting a bit ahead of ourselves?

The next qualifiers will be tough! Arena should focus on each national team opponent and make sure that his choices (excluding injured players) are appropriate for the match at hand.

Jamaica presents the problem of a height and speed opponent and contrasts with the smaller El Salvador and Panama teams.

The GK choice will be very important (not only after seeing Howard flail at a Polish "knuckle-ball"), given Keller competing for the #1 spot for Tottenham, and Friedel injured in June. I think Friedel will get the sign.

Hejduk is still fast enough to play RB (but was out for Columbus lately).
Most agree that either Pope, Gibbs or Mastro (Berhalter is in "rehab") are the most likely CB's. If one of them gets hurt in the meantime, we have two starters left at CB.
Bocanegra needs to be released from Fulham to start at LB. Convey will sit.

An if-recovered Armas, Zavagnin, Beasley and Donovan should be starting in MF (if Reyna is not available). I hardly doubt O'Brien will be let go from Ajax so that he can be re-injured in Kingston.

At forward: Mathis (if Hannover agrees), Wolff, McBride (if Fulham agrees), and Ching should help with finishing. And if Mathis is so good at set-pieces, why doesn't he take the corner-kicks too, if Reyna isn't avaialable?

[Karl K]

I think the broader point is that either a Mastro/Z, Armas/Z or Mastro/Armas pairing lacks some of the offensive firepower we want if we're trying to break someone down. Armas/Z were important against Mexico by finding ways to win possession, and prevent Mexico from doing one of their favorite things - dominating the ball. However, no one we play in a meaningful game until WC '06 will be as good at possession as Mexico. I think one of the reasons that people aren't as jazzed up about Mastro/Z on Sunday is that the game didn't really call for their strengths as d-mids, but instead called for someone who could contribute more to the attack with distribution.

You know, maybe this is all such a counterintuitive view that I simply don't get, or maybe it's all simply too clever by half, or some combination of the two, but here are some facts about the Mexico game -- remember, in the context of the pairing that "lacks. . .offensive firepower:"

Shots: USA 14 Mexico 3
Corners: USA 12 Mexico 2

So the logic is: we need the LEAST offensive central midfield pairing to get the MOST offense against a team that WANTS to be more OFFENSIVE than we do?

Is that right?

And against a weak team, this pairing, which isn't strong OFFENSIVELY (but showed it could operate against a STRONGER opponent and in fact work well to generate a LOT of OFFENSE) is not optimal because the pairing....wait let me get this straight.... the pairing doesn't generate a lot of OFFENSE?

Is that right?

I am sorry, I am getting dizzy here.

[StillKickin]

[QUOTE

Your qualifier, 'if they are really needed', makes me believe that you understand that these coming qualifiers are not that tough, and that Arena won't choose players if he thinks it could affect their standing on their clubs. He wants them playing first team for their clubs to insure their readiness when he does call them up.

Getting a bit ahead of ourselves?

The next qualifiers will be tough! Arena should focus on each national team opponent and make sure that his choices (excluding injured players) are appropriate for the match at hand.

Jamaica presents the problem of a height and speed opponent and contrasts with the smaller El Salvador and Panama teams.


At forward: Mathis (if Hannover agrees), Wolff, McBride (if Fulham agrees), and Ching should help with finishing. And if Mathis is so good at set-pieces, why doesn't he take the corner-kicks too, if Reyna isn't avaialable?[/QUOTE]
________________________________________


I agree with your assessment re: releasing of players for WCQ. They're all important and Bruce is not going to take these lightly. And especially in regards to Mathis. Let's face it, he hasn't seen a lot of time with the National Team for whatever reason, and if Bruce thinks he's valuable to the team, he needs to be called in at every opportunity, the earlier the better in qualifying, so he can "blend" in with the guys. Chemistry is very important, especially to Bruce. Mathis doesn't need to be "saved" for our "tougher" opponents, just throwing him into a do-or-die game hoping for a "that's why he's here" moment.

Sorry for all the "" "". :)

Also, I don't know how I got those double quotes from two different posters in there either.

[Nutmeg]

Folks, please ignore the sarcastic spin clearly intended to denigrate yet another thread into a discussion about one player and one poster.

As for who Bruce will get for Jamaica - who knows. I bet he makes a hard push to get every single player he feels will help him get a result in Kingston. This is WCQ. This is our toughest opponent in the group. If we even get 1 point away from home, we've put ourselves in the driver's seat. If we get 3, we're in terrific shape.

If there is one thing that group play has taught us historically, getting a result in the first game is crucial. This round of WCQ is not dissimilar to a group stage in other tournaments.

Arena will push hard for every player he wants. That means Hannover will be letting go of Mathis and Dolo if Arena wants them. Reyna, O'brien, McBride, Bocanegra - whoever. For an away WCQ, barring some Co Adrianse type BS, Bruce will get the players he needs. Besides, the sooner the US wraps up a place in the Hex, the less players need to be called over from Europe. A win in Jamaica would go a hell of a long way.