They are killing the sport

[MadridForever]

This year is a clear demostration that some things should change. It isn't a coincidence the failure of the big teams in CL and the failure of the big leagues NTs (Spain, England, Italy, France, Germany) in EURO 2004.

Pre-season tours, leagues with many teams, FIFA and UEFA nonsense tournaments, NT games, ......

This season some players of the big team has begin the season in July and they have end the season in the last days of June. Almost twelve months of competition!!! and around 80 games!!! And we are speaking about the the highest level competition. It hasn't the same exigency to play the greece league than la liga. The pressure/rivals' difficulty is much more higher in la liga.

The result, we have a good team as the greece team, formed by players that play in the greece league, or in "small team" of the "big leagues" to win teams like France or Spain, formed by players that have played the double of games than the greece players, in strongest leagues with a lot pressure.

Well, I'm going to speak about Spain league teams because they are what i know better, but i think that it is a valid example for the rest of the big leagues.
Real Madrid won easily Porto in Porto's Stadium (1 -3) and tied with porto (1-1) in Bernabeu playing with the subs because RM was classified. That happened at the begining of the Champions league. At the end of the season, Porto was the champion of CL, and RM like all the European biggest teams fall in quarterfinals.

Celta and Real Sociedad fought to win la liga until the last game in the 2002/2003 season. Finally RM won that year la liga but Celta and RS fought until the last game. Well, they have played the Champion league this year. Result ..... Celta have finished in the 18 position in la liga, and they will play in second division the next season, and Real Sociedad suffered until the last moment to not go to the second division. It is a clear example of the difference of only play la liga or play la liga and CL at the same time.

This season Real Madrid in March was in the first position of la liga with a advantage of 8 points over Valencia, it was classified to Spain cup final, and to Champions league Quarterfinals. In the last two months RM lost almost all the games, finishing 4 in la liga when it has a advantage of 18 points over Barcelona 4th in march,18 points in only two months!!! Real Madrid had team to fight only for la liga or only for CL, but it cannot fight to win (La liga, CL and Spain cup) the same year. Other teams like Valencia or Barcelona that were eliminated early in Spain Cup and didn't played Champions league finished much better the season.

A example of the number of games that the players play in the last years is that Raul with 26 only years old has played more games than Di Stefano (50's) and Butragueño (80's) in all their sport lives. It is impossible to maintain the quality of the play playing so many games each season. You can pay 100 Millions $ so that a runner run the 100 meters in 5 seconds, but that will never happen, it is impossible. What i mean is that many people will say, the superstar player earn a lot of money, they should play all the games great, but it is impossible.


And also some poeple can think. Great, that balance the diference between the big teams/leagues and the small/teams leagues. More emotion. But the result is that all the teams play a mediocre soccer, the "good ones" because are mentally and physhically exhauted, and the "bad ones" because the haven't talent to play better.
Personally, i want to see the best players in the world play in at their best conditions, showing all their talent, i want to see great plays in the biggest games, not to see players at 50% of their real level.

In this EURO we aren't seeing many good plays. And i think that we have a great generation of talented players. Only Rooney has show some details, and he is 18 years old and he didn't play for a big team.

Fortunately, some people as Frank Beckenbauer thinks the same. He says today that "This is a EURO full of surprises because the superstars player have arrived very tired, because they play a lot of games during their seasons. And in the Champions League this year has happened the same. UEFA should reduce the teams in the domestic leagues".


http://futbol.sportec.com/portaldefutbol/historico/2004/noticias/noticia_desarrollo.asp?n=62565&m=06&d=26 (http://futbol.sportec.com/portaldefutbol/historico/2004/noticias/noticia_desarrollo.asp?n=62565&m=06&d=26)

http://www.cronica.com.mx/nota.php?idc=131699 (http://www.cronica.com.mx/nota.php?idc=131699)

[Bauser]

Bad excuses. The Champions League was shrinked with four matches from a 6-match second phase groupstage to a 2-match home/away knock out round last season. That detail alone provided enough energy for almost a full Euro tournament. Then of course, most clubs won't make it to the final of the CL and therefore the national teams involved won't suffer so much anyway. Infact those who did (Porto) make up quite a lot of that Portugal team doing just fine in Euro 2004 now. So is Holland with players from major clubs all over Europe.

The long domestic season has always been there. No extra strain there. Every club's squad is bigger and deeper than before and very few players (if any) appear in every game of the season any more.

I think some of the old powers must realize that the strength of their domestic league does not match the strength of their respective national teams.

[Iberian]

As a Spanish and a Real Madrid fan, I can't go for this argument either.
The players from our leagues do get to these competitions more tired than the rest, but I don't think that the scheduling is really responsible for the whole thing.
England made it to the second round, and strong. Nobody plays more games and has a tighter schedule than they do, as they play League and two cups.
Real Madrid had a mentally handicapped coach that gave his players (the only 12 he used the whole season), 1500 more minutes than anybody else. Beckham just complained about lack of form blaming Real. Figo was just walking the first half of the year, to the point that we could only talk about him being the first Galactico to be sold at season's end. However, he was smarter than anybody else, and he purposedly started to get back into form in the second half of the year, so he could come to the EC strong as a bull (which he is). Raul was wasted, Zidane lost the spark....and Ronaldo gained weight! There is a lot to say about how we plan the season, the depth of our benches, and about how our teams take care of physical training.
Real Sociedad and Celta just do not have a bench, they are smaller sides and they have to suffer too much success this way. However, Albelda, Baraja, Valeron, Vicente were in decent shape, as their teams do have a bench and practice rotations (that Baraja didn't play well is not fitness related, as Raul's problems are).

I just don't see where the same old excuse of the long schedule fits in this time. In France, Henry looked very strong down to the last Arsenal game, but he didn't shine. Again, it has nothing to do with fitness.

Maybe the reason is that in Spain or Italy we do not give preference to the national team, national games and competitions, as our clubs are very big and powerful, and do not allow it. If they were a little more conscious, maybe they would help a little more in allowing our stars to get to summer time in better shape, putting more emphasis in rotations and fitness training. Then again, they worry more about the League, the CL and their own asses more than an EC or a WC, and it shows all over the place, not just in the player's physical condition. Nobody can compare the feelings that the NT generates, the importance that it has above everything else in countries like Brasil and Argentina, and what we do with it.

[Bauser]

Can't complain about tight schedule either. WC 2002 started in late May very short time for preparations there, but EURO 2004 started two weeks later on the calendar. Everything was in place for successful campaigns for the Big 5, but they didn't deliver.

[tpmazembe]

Bad excuses. I think some of the old powers must realize that the strength of their domestic league does not match the strength of their respective national teams.Agree.

The nations with the supposed best leagues - Italy, Spain, England - all dropped out earlier than expected so reasons must be found. Fact is the strength of their domestic leagues comes from their international make-up (both their homegrown talent + the contracted international talent). Once the NTs come together they have proven (recently) to be no more formidable than those NTs who export their players to those leagues.

Interesting how Euro 2004 has only served to re-afirm the trend started at Korea/Japan 2002 -- with perennials no longer guaranteed success late in the tournment. No longer should any nation count on being there at the end. It will be a dog-fight for all, even to make it out of the group stages. Pedigree alone doesn't win games in the new world order, especially in tournament style competitions.

The "placing club football over NTs" excuse is old. My cousin is half-Spanish and has been calling me before every major international tournament since '82 with talk of how Spain was finally going to break through, how the talent level was unprecedented, how the players club experience is the best, how the whole country was behind them, etc. Everytime they bow out he is devastated. They care very much.

I do think that international level players play too many games per year, but as Bauser points out, that is a problem shared by all.

[United20]

This year is a clear demostration that some things should change. It isn't a coincidence the failure of the big teams in CL and the failure of the big leagues NTs (Spain, England, Italy, France, Germany) in EURO 2004.

Pre-season tours, leagues with many teams, FIFA and UEFA nonsense tournaments, NT games, ......

This season some players of the big team has begin the season in July and they have end the season in the last days of June. Almost twelve months of competition!!! and around 80 games!!! And we are speaking about the the highest level competition. It hasn't the same exigency to play the greece league than la liga. The pressure/rivals' difficulty is much more higher in la liga.

The result, we have a good team as the greece team, formed by players that play in the greece league, or in "small team" of the "big leagues" to win teams like France or Spain, formed by players that have played the double of games than the greece players, in strongest leagues with a lot pressure.



This never affected Brasil winning the WC in 2002, and their players play a lot further away from home the Spainish or other EURO "power teams". The truth is, as in every sport, underdogs always make it through the cracks to success. As much as I enjoy watching La Liga, the truth is the Spanish National Team (even with generations of different players) have underachieved more than any other so-called Soccer Power.

Give Greece more than a "good team" label and credit. They are playing as a team. Not as a bunch over over-paid, over-hyped, soccer stars. Enjoy this story of Greece trying to pull-off another major upset and possibly winning the EURO 06'. It's great for the game.

[Bauser]

It is also important to point out that the Big 5 need their superstars to step up for them to have success. They aren't that much deeper in talent than the rest. Certainly not compared to other qualified nations. Even in their squads (and starting elevens) there are players of a quality that grows on trees everywhere else in Europe.

Germany looks absolutely second rate now. It is amazing for those of us who are used to see Germany dominate. I doubt they are Top 15 in Europe even with their best players available. Without Ballack on the field I wonder if they are Top 25. They haven't beaten a European team in a tournament since 1996 and without Ballack they would probably not have made it to Portugal. Even Iceland and the Faroes can stretch Germany to the maximum of their capacity now. We saw that in the qualifiers. They were doomed to struggle at Euro 2004. No surprise at all. I think they did better than expected.

France do have Zidane and Henry who have no equals anywhere else, but behind them we find players like Gallas, Dacourt and Silvestre who are average at best. Lizarazu, Pires, Desailly are over the top. Trezeguet doesn't score unless the ball is provided to him on a silver plate and Vieira was missing against Greece. The team's showing depends very much on Zidane's form on the day and he had an off-day against Greece and we all saw what that meant. Some players said to the media they were very pleased to play Greece instead of Portugal in the quarterfinal. I think France fell on overconfidence and satisfaction of playing a 'minor' team.

Italy didn't learn the lesson from Korea. Trapattoni took out attacking players and replaced them with midfielders in the keymatch against Sweden to secure a 1-0 lead. It failed. Sweden got back into the game and equalized. Italy was outcoached. Time has caught up on Trap and his tactics. Zambrotta was the only Italian player that impressed me. Cassano made a name for himself internationally. Players like Pirlo and Gattuso are nowhere near the quality you could expect from an Azzurri midfield. Has Italy ever had a weaker central midfield than now? Vieri didn't look sharp either. They should have brought Roby Baggio to Portugal as a back-up for Totti.

Spain without Raul in form looks very much like a weaker team even if they have plenty of other good players. I have never figured out why Morientes with his excellent scoringrecord is never a regular in the team during these tight tournament matches. Valeron is supposed to be Spain's Zidane. He couldn't get a starting spot on the team. This team with all their attacking resources only scored two goals in the tournament. Spain is always a mystery. May be their individuals aren't that great after all.

England at least made it out of the groupstage and they did so without Beckham in form. All the other teams failed to deliver when their biggest names collapsed.

[Excape Goat]

The pre-season favorites were Portugal(being the host), France(the defending champion), Italy(full of talents), the Czech Republic(good qualifiers and overall records in 2002 and 2003) and Holland(full of talents). The darkhorses were England and Spain. Three of the four semi-finalists were in fact heavy favorites. Only Italy and Spain were eliminated in the 1st round. Basically, Italy was down to goal difference. Sweden and Denmark were surprises, but not big surprises. Italy actually plated 10 minutes of defensive football against sweden.... was punished for it. Spain also played one poor second half against Greece. Greece was the only surprise of the tournament.

The champions League agruement is questionable. Porto and Monaco played in the Final. Portugal is still in the tournament. Monaco does not have many players in Euro 2004. Only Morientes was considered to be a major player fro Euro 2004. The CL did not affect the players from Chelsea and Deportivo Terry and Lampard played well. Spain did not use Luque or Valeron very much.

[MadridForever]

Well, very interesting. I will try to defend my argument, Frank argument and UEFA argument (I have read today that UEFA wants to reduce de big leagues to 16 teams improve the quality of the product/sport - a very difficult objective).


I will reply some of your arguments to clear my point of view.



Bauer said:

Bad excuses. The Champions League was shrinked with four matches from a 6-match second phase groupstage to a 2-match home/away knock out round last season. That detail alone provided enough energy for almost a full Euro tournament. Then of course, most clubs won't make it to the final of the CL and therefore the national teams involved won't suffer so much anyway. Infact those who did (Porto) make up quite a lot of that Portugal team doing just fine in Euro 2004 now. So is Holland with players from major clubs all over Europe.

The long domestic season has always been there. No extra strain there. Every club's squad is bigger and deeper than before and very few players (if any) appear in every game of the season any more.

I think some of the old powers must realize that the strength of their domestic league does not match the strength of their respective national teams.

First, I'm not defending that the only reason for the CL/UEFA failures is because the players of the big leagues have played more games. I'm defending that is influencing clearly in the quality of the games/play.

Second, i'm using RM/Spain league as example, because is the team/league that i best know. RM bad season have been mainly for its own mistakes. Have affected to the play of the team to play so many games? Sure!!!!!! it has been one of the factors, not the only one.

Yeah, UEFA have reduced second phase groupstage to 2-match home/away knock out. Even with that reduction we are far of the traditional format of the champions league (2-match home/away knock out all the competition - the format changed in the early 90s, i think 1992). And 1992 format was exactly the same that this year format (only 1 groupstage), UEFA changed again the format in the late 90s.

Without the second round teams like real madrid has played Wednesday/sunday from the last week of August to March. if UEFA hadn't reduced the CL, this year the big leagues should have been started at beginning of August, German league (winter break) should have started in July, and CL qualifier should have been played in June before some league end, very difficult to play qualifiers when you don't know what teams should play them. Other important fact, that the players won't be very happy without holidays, probably the result had been a players strike. ;)

Portugal isn't a valid example. The Portuguese league is clearly inferior to la liga, Valencia, Deportivo or Real Madrid will won the Portuguese league without any problem, and playing with the subs many games. RM players wouldn't be forced to play at 100% level all the games to win like happen in the spain league, the hardest league in the world. I repeat, it isn't the same run the 100 meters against the best runners of the world, that run the 100 meters against "average" runners.

About holland, we would have to analyse players by player the number of games that they have played, but i think that probably only Seedorf and VNR could have played the same number of games at a similar level of exigency than Zidane, Raul, .....

About long domestic season, it isn't the same a long domestic Portugal/Greece/Czech season that a Spain, Italy, England season. And even between the team of the same league, the season of Celta than the season of RM. As i said before, Celta tried to play the same games than Real Madrid and the result ..... second division. And actually the players of the biggest club play much more games than for example in the eighties, that is the reason of that Raul has played more games with 26 years old than Di Stefano (fifties) or Butragueño (eighties), and both Di Stefano and Butragueño are legendary RM players that played a lot of years with RM and Spain NT.

About the relation between the Strength of their domestic league's and the NT teams, I'm agree with you. Spain NT never have had a great success with its NT (only has won 1960 EURO). For diverses reasons in Spain exist more a club tradition than a NT tradition. But it is another discussion. What i'm saying is that the average Spain NT player has a average harder season than the average Greece player season, and that reduce the real difference between the teams, mainly at the end of the season.

Iberian said:

As a Spanish and a Real Madrid fan, I can't go for this argument either .
......see his original post


Iberian, I'm not defending that the schedule is the responsible for the whole thing. I'm defending that play more games, that play harder games, has a clear influence about the quality of the play at the end of the season. We see much better games at the beginning of the season that at the end of the season. Some years ago with less games, and a less tight schedule the difference wasn't so big.


I'm only defending that reducing the leagues to 16 teams, that play only the really important FIFA and UEFA tournaments will be great to see good games all the year, to maintain a decent level all the season. Especially in seasons with EURO or World cup. And i think that the 100% of physical trainers would think the same.

The schedule have a clear influence about the play of the teams. I can remember a discussion that i have in Spain forum about RM 2002/2003 season, one year ago. Many people said that Real Madrid had made a bad season because it had to fight until the last game to win la liga against teams like Real Sociedad and Celta. Well, i reply saying that RM players had player around 25-30 games more than Real sociedad and Celta players. I said that we will see the real difference of quality between the three teams this season with the three teams playing with the same cards. The difference has been very clear .... Celta will play the next year in second division, Real Sociedad has been in the worse positions of la liga the whole year. Another example, the last year Valencia played CL, result .... 5 position, this year without Champions league 1st position.

About Henry, you are right about that he seen very strong in the Arsenal last games. But in France last game against Greece, we saw clearly that france players was much more tired than Greece players in the second half. France didn't seem a team running until the last minute (like denmark yesterday) but playing bad, they seemed a team tired, without imagination, without even the desperate resource of one individualistic play of Zidane, Henry, ...

I have spoke about Spain NT in my reply to Bauer. About Italy, they have a great tradition with their NT. They have won several world cups.


I haven’t time for more replies, maybe later ...

[|--LdC--|]

Excuses, excuses and more excuses.
The Real Madrid case, completely overrated team, only have 11 or 12 players to play all the year. Perez knew he failed we can see that by the new players that Real Madrid already bought and will buy.
The Spanish national team, good team, played some good games, could easily reach the quarter finals and even further, blame Saez.
About FC Porto, played this year 55 official games, was a long season very tough, we lost 5 games, 1 in the Champions League ( was the "easy" game that someone here said Real won in Porto...), 1 in the final of the European Super Cup, 1 in the final of the Portuguese Cup, and yes 2 in the "easy" Portuguese League.
The Portuguese national team, made loads of preparation games, most of them with bad results, but often with at least 5 FC Porto players, so the number of games made by the crucial FC Porto players reaches 60 or more.
Obviously there are alot of diferences, but the truth is that who made the results in football are the 1º the players, 2º the coach, 3º the board.
The Italian case, in this Euro Italy brought a superb squad of players, but lacked a real coach, can anyone explain me why Italy played so well against Sweden for most of the game, and then simply they stop running! this wasn´t because of the physical condition, but because their coach, like some Italian players said "if Trappatoni want us to attack more we will attack..."
Most of the time the one´s who kill the sport aren´t the players, but the coaches and the club boards.

[ShallowGrave]

The problem is that these kind of tournaments don't give anything anymore to the big players ( is not a question of them being overrated, if they are where they are and they win millions is because they've earned it ). Players like beckam, figo, del piero, etc etc already win millions in publicity and club contracts, already won the most important football cups and tittles, already have the most luxurious houses, cars and boats... why do they have to win another cup? they already have it all...
30 or 40 years ago, being selected to play in the national team in a tournament like the euro was an honour and most of all was a door to all kind of riches (big contracts to big clubs). Now football is an industry, money flows everywhere and those who have a lot of it don't care anymore...

[Bauser]

The problem is that these kind of tournaments don't give anything anymore to the big players ( is not a question of them being overrated, if they are where they are and they win millions is because they've earned it ). Players like beckam, figo, del piero, etc etc already win millions in publicity and club contracts, already won the most important football cups and tittles, already have the most luxurious houses, cars and boats... why do they have to win another cup? they already have it all...
30 or 40 years ago, being selected to play in the national team in a tournament like the euro was an honour and most of all was a door to all kind of riches (big contracts to big clubs). Now football is an industry, money flows everywhere and those who have a lot of it don't care anymore...

I don't think this is accurate at all. It could be for club football where there in many cases is very little love involved and very much money on the players minds. Clubs are filled with players from all over the world and each individual seems to care more about himself than the club in many cases.

National team football has always been much more about pride and local connections than financial rewards. Playing for your country goes beyond money and these superficial luxury things. You are representing your nation and a broader audience of fans. Everyone wants to be a part of that adventure.

[tpmazembe]

Now football is an industry, money flows everywhere and those who have a lot of it don't care anymore...Then how does one explain grown men crying like babies upon elimination?

What of Cassano's joy-to-despair look after a moment of personal glory?

Why do established players bitch and moan that they should have been on the NTsquad, or should be in the NT's starting line-ups?

Wouldn't they be acting like the NBA stars who can't be bothered (some have to be begged) to show up to the Olympics?

No, I think they care very much.

[Oscar]

In this EURO we aren't seeing many good plays

I'll agree on this, I've only seen 2 matches that were really good in my opinion.

However to blame the failure to get far by the 'big' teams on too many matches being played in a season doesn't fly with me. Especially as the 1999-2000 season had more games for the players (because of the 2nd group stage in CL) and the Euro 2000 was one of the best tournaments I've ever seen.

Spain, England, Italy, France, Germany

Spain did not look tired to me, to me the only reason they didn't go through the group stage is because of Saez and his grand tactical insight (Vicente + Joaquin turned into backs against Portugal was genius) Yes, Raul is not in form and hasn't been this entire year - and shouldn't even have started for Spain = another reason for 1st round exit - but then the same can be said about van der Vaart who is a pretty good player but has had an awfull year in Ajax and also in his last Oranje games...is the Eredivisie too hard on players now as well?

England didn't get farther because it seemed Eriksson believed he was still coaching in Italy, that they should play more defensively whenever they're a goal ahead. Regardless, they were only one round removed from their best ever in a European Championship...how is this a 'big' failure?

Italy getting kicked out of the group stage is divine justice, I don't see anything wrong with this.

¿Germany? Come on, that this group of players even made it to the Cup is already an accomplishment. Still can't believe that practically the same team made it to the WC final.

France to me is the inexplicable one, but then a team of good players not performing to their potential is not only a thing of today.

[JeffS]

What we're seeing now is world soccer parity, which is a great thing.

Soccer is no longer dominated by some select countries like Brazil, Argentina, Italy, Germany, England, Spain, France, Holland, etc. Not is it dominated only by the richest clubs from the "Big 4 leagues", like Milan, Real, Barca, Arsenal, ManU, Bayern, etc.

Now, historical non-soccer-powers can compete with the "big boys". That's why we now see Greece in the semis. Portugal and the Czech Republic are also not traditional powers, but have played as well as anyone. And in the Champions League and Uefa cup, it was great to see clubs like Real, Milan, ManU , etc fall, and for smaller clubs to prevail.

This is great. Who wants to have the same teams win every time? That would suck, and it did when it was the case.

[its called football]

If you really want to know who is killing the game... agents, plc's, Roman Abramovich, corporate sponsorship and "the prawn sandwich brigade", plastic fans, FIFA trying to "globalise" the game in the wrong manner, and Sky TV and the other subscription channels. Oh and bad journalism. Its a business now, and thats the problem.
Everybody should go and read "The Football Tribe" and watch "The Golden Vision" (a bbc documentary from the 1960's) then see Beckham with his tatoo's, and Kenyon with his greasy money and Stretford with his corrupt practices, then wonder where it all went wrong.
Makes me sick.
Thank God for Stevie G (never thought I would say that), Porto and Monaco.

[Iberian]

[font=Verdana]Iberian said:

As a Spanish and a Real Madrid fan, I can't go for this argument either .
......see his original post


Iberian, I'm not defending that the schedule is the responsible for the whole thing. I'm defending that play more games, that play harder games, has a clear influence about the quality of the play at the end of the season. We see much better games at the beginning of the season that at the end of the season. Some years ago with less games, and a less tight schedule the difference wasn't so big.


I'm only defending that reducing the leagues to 16 teams, that play only the really important FIFA and UEFA tournaments will be great to see good games all the year, to maintain a decent level all the season. Especially in seasons with EURO or World cup. And i think that the 100% of physical trainers would think the same.

The schedule have a clear influence about the play of the teams. I can remember a discussion that i have in Spain forum about RM 2002/2003 season, one year ago. Many people said that Real Madrid had made a bad season because it had to fight until the last game to win la liga against teams like Real Sociedad and Celta. Well, i reply saying that RM players had player around 25-30 games more than Real sociedad and Celta players. I said that we will see the real difference of quality between the three teams this season with the three teams playing with the same cards. The difference has been very clear .... Celta will play the next year in second division, Real Sociedad has been in the worse positions of la liga the whole year. Another example, the last year Valencia played CL, result .... 5 position, this year without Champions league 1st position.

About Henry, you are right about that he seen very strong in the Arsenal last games. But in France last game against Greece, we saw clearly that france players was much more tired than Greece players in the second half. France didn't seem a team running until the last minute (like denmark yesterday) but playing bad, they seemed a team tired, without imagination, without even the desperate resource of one individualistic play of Zidane, Henry, ...

I haven’t time for more replies, maybe later ...

Ok, a league with 16 teams would help the players to be less tired once summer comes with an EC or a WC, but it still does not mean that they will be physically fit, that is something that is achieved during the season, short or long, and that some club teams are better at than others. You know that Queiroz, for example, refused to have the training sessions televised. This took a lot of the effort that players used to put into training with it, and Queiroz trainning sessions actually became a joke in the press. The result, players with overweight, or barely running when it mattered most. In this case, the display they put up at the EC (Beckham, Zidane...) was a cause of the lack of training more than the accumulation of games. Real Madrid lost it four months before the end of the season. In a 16 team league we would have 8 games less, 2 months less not 4. Real would still have lost, and I also stay with my thought that British train much better than we generally do in Spain, as they obviously last longer, play more games, and don't look tired in a WC or an EC. Italians were also quite strong, and the French were more affected by the age of some and their coach than anything else. Zidane was not at a 100%, as we knew he wouldn't be, but if you look at the stats of the whole EC, the man still leads everyone in passes attempted and made (hundreds), so he was very much active, and perphaps more mentally tired than anything else. In the Spanish case, if on top of this you add the fact that instead of training our team was caught partying in Jerez before playing Greece in Zaragoza, it can also be said that the NT has not helped at all to improve their fitness. Actually, our NT coaches and federation are more afraid of injuring a Real or Barcelona player than anything else, as they are always told that they do not pay their salaries and that the players are just being given as an act of good will the minute that a friendly bothers them.

Physical fitness is not all, either. Players have to be mentally fresh, they have to forget the season and change the chip, in this, Spanish, Italian, British, French, Dutch, may have a harder task after going to a hard season, playing CL or UEFA, and having countless setbacks (injures, loses, etc...). This could have affected somebody like Zidane much more. To this, as somebody (it's called Football) very well said, you have to add their careers as public figures, marketeers and tattoed showmen married to spicegirls. They all have a lot more to blame themselves for more than just being busy doing their jobs playing soccer.

[its called football]

16 teams? So is Madridforever going to tell four teams from each english league they are being relegated? Well I suppose it doesn't matter as long as the plastics can still crow about their "big" teams and expensive signings. After all if these big teams slip down the table most of their "fans" will jump ship anyway. And Coke's advertising money will still come in so FIFA will be happy too.
As a more radical suggestion how about only the Champions being in the Champions' League, and cutting down the numbers that way, and getting rid of absurd marketing tours to south east asia in pre-season too. Or does this affect FIFA's world plan and reduce the number of prestigious and income raising matches?

[AFCA]

*applause*

[Andy TAUS]

and getting rid of absurd marketing tours to south east asia in pre-season too. Or does this affect FIFA's world plan and reduce the number of prestigious and income raising matches?I think you'll find that pre & post season marketing tours (not only to south east asia but also to the USA) have ALL to do with the greedy clubs (and their striving for more money) and LITTLE to do with FIFA.

There's got to be some reasonable balance struck between the needs of fans, players, clubs, national FA's, confederations, FIFA & sponsors.

Until this happens then all these various stakeholders will do their whining & finger-pointing best to blame everyone else but have the gall to demand that their rights are the most important ones and should be satisfied FIRST.

At this time, I'd say some give at the club/competition/exhibition level, with a corresponding toning down of player demands, is way over-due.