All Mexican/Hispanic NOT a violation

[thurd]

A minor league basketball league (the ABA) has awarded a franchise to Alberquerque that will consist only of native american players. With this being allowed, I can not see how anyone could stop Chivas from doing the same thing.......I saw this mentioned in this weeks Sports Illustrated, it appeared near the front of the magazine.

[YanksFC]

Well, unless you think that the ABA is in charge of MLS, it won't happen. The league has unequivocally stated that Chivas USA will have to comply with league rules, and league rules permit a limited number of internationals for each MLS side.

[thurd]

Well, unless you think that the ABA is in charge of MLS, it won't happen. The league has unequivocally stated that Chivas USA will have to comply with league rules, and league rules permit a limited number of internationals for each MLS side.
By saying 'anyone' could stop them, i was referring to the argument which people made saying that it would be against the law to sign players of only one nationality/demographic.

[Eric B]

A: Indians in the states are a little different case.
B: Shouldn't we by aiming a little higher than the frickin' ABA?

[kpaulson]

Not a violation of what?

The "law"? I can promise you that the right plaintiff could put Chivas USA in a world of hurt. Same for the Albequerque team. The only question is whether there's someone out there with that much of a cause.

[Dave Brull]

Not a violation of what?

The "law"? I can promise you that the right plaintiff could put Chivas USA in a world of hurt. Same for the Albequerque team. The only question is whether there's someone out there with that much of a cause.

The only way that someone could put Chivas USA in "a world of hurt" is to prove that he was not signed by MLS (not Chivas, single entity remember? Unless Vergera has obtained the right to sign players to Chivas USA and not MLS. Has this occured?) because of his race, ethnicity, etc. Seeing as how MLS has signed numerous races, ethnicities, creeds (kind of an all encompassing word, I learned) I do not think they would have a leg to stand on.

Just because the ACLU perceives Chivas' signing policies elsewhere to violate equal opportunity employment , 1.) You have to be good enough to have earned a spot on Chivas and be able to prove that fact and 2.) Were denied the opportunity based on creed.

Or is that a load of BS? I'm not a lawyer. However, to use a line I have used before, I anticipate Chivas USA to be the Y2K of Bigsoccer.

[(TxT)]

It will be very hard to prove that you are better at soccer than someone in a court of law, and then that you weren't chosen because of your race. It isn't like other sports were everyone has a s!t load of stats for there position (except O-line in football has no official individual stats).

[kpaulson]

The only way that someone could put Chivas USA in "a world of hurt" is to prove that he was not signed by MLS (not Chivas, single entity remember? Unless Vergera has obtained the right to sign players to Chivas USA and not MLS. Has this occured?) because of his race, ethnicity, etc. Seeing as how MLS has signed numerous races, ethnicities, creeds (kind of an all encompassing word, I learned) I do not think they would have a leg to stand on.
Actaully, that's not quite right. Pretend it's IBM, instead. Could IBM decide to have an all-black division in Peoria? Of course not. Single entity wouldn't be a huge factor.

Just because the ACLU perceives Chivas' signing policies elsewhere to violate equal opportunity employment , 1.) You have to be good enough to have earned a spot on Chivas and be able to prove that fact and 2.) Were denied the opportunity based on creed.

Or is that a load of BS? I'm not a lawyer. However, to use a line I have used before, I anticipate Chivas USA to be the Y2K of Bigsoccer.
Nah, what you've said is essentially right-- which is why I used to the term "the right plaintiff". It IS hard to prove. I think to win you'd basically have to be a Landon Donovan-caliber, Spanish-speaking non-latino player AND get turned down.

The thing is, MLS wants to avoid a large lawsuit at all costs, win or lose. The cost is tremendous-- even if you win. In court, the difficulty of proving what a good soccer player is, for example, or detailing team dynamics can work against MLS-- these sorts of abstract concepts would require lots of testimony from expensive experts. If a defendent is good enough to get into court (but not win), that alone would be plenty bad.

[Casper]

Does anyone really think a high-quality non-hispanic player is going to be so upset that Chivas won't sign him as to waste his life on a lawsuit? There are hundreds of other teams for which such a player could go play. What would the damage to that player be? A couple of years of max MLS salary? If the player was worth that much cap space, wouldn't have of the rest of the teams in the league and various teams at different levels in Europe be begging to sign him?

Ir's only worthwhile to sue if you have damages that you can prove and for which you can be remunerated.

Loss of the opportunity to play for an expansion team in a fledgling league isn't so damaging that it's a "world of hurt."

In theory, MLS could lose such a lawsuit, but who would care? The money would be inconsequential.

[Dave Brull]

Nah, what you've said is essentially right-- which is why I used to the term "the right plaintiff". It IS hard to prove. I think to win you'd basically have to be a Landon Donovan-caliber, Spanish-speaking non-latino player AND get turned down.


If this guy exists, MLS is doing him a favor by rejecting him. Your honor, I want to make less money and play for Chivas! I am a bi-lingual World Cup caliber player and want to make about $255,000 a year. I have rights!

I see your point about IBM. That does not make sense. However, seeing as there are not a plethora of MLS-caliber Hispanic-Americans (unless you plucked every other MLS team of those players) I don't see how Vergera is going to field this team legitimately. I assume has has lawyers in this country and those lawyers are employed to help him sue and not get sued. The other option is to field an MLS team that has a blend of creeds, before NY takes all the TIs.

So again I think when Chivas fields a team, there will not be much to talk about.

[Atom'sDad]

I really do not know the laws and I am new here so please do not flame me for this question.

Can't MLS be sued right now? I mean if the company I work for has a policy of only hiring a set number of non-citizans, couldn't we be sued? Isn't that what MLS is doing right now? I mean aren't both what MLS is doing now and what we think Chivas is planning on doing illigal?

[Casper]

I really do not know the laws and I am new here so please do not flame me for this question.

Can't MLS be sued right now? I mean if the company I work for has a policy of only hiring a set number of non-citizans, couldn't we be sued? Isn't that what MLS is doing right now? I mean aren't both what MLS is doing now and what we think Chivas is planning on doing illigal?
A company is under no obligation whatsoever to hire non-citizens. I have never hired one, for instance. A green card holder probably has standing to sue me, but then again, a green card holder has no problem getting a job in MLS, either, if he can play.

[depor15]

a few things right off the bat
1) Hispanic is not a race, I repeat hispanic is not a race.
2) Many latinos or hispanics cannot speak Spanish.
3) please define what Hispanic in the US means as i get more confused everyday. Are Brazilians considered Hispanics?

A lawyer could really twist this whole issue so many ways in court. By hispanic or latino are we talking only about those people born outside of the US and then only in Latin America, because some people consider Spaniards hispanic and others do not. In fact in Europe Latins are as fellows: Spaniards, Italians, Portuguese and Some even consider Romanians to be Latin. Let the judge have this one.
Thats what we get for inventing a race that does not exist.
It is so messed up that some of my friends do not consider
some black latins who play pro baseball Black.

[Dave Brull]

In fact, to begin to obtain permanent resident status (green card) in the USA on a work-basis, the employer must show that the immigration applicant (furriner) is the only one who is a.) is qualified for the position and b.) wants the job. The BCIS (formerly INS) wants the employers to prove that no American who wants the job and is qualified for that job is passed over before an immigrantion applicant is eligible for the work-based green card application. I forget what the process is called but I used to work at an immigration law firm.

So to answer your question: As long as there are American soccer players, foreign players cannot sue their way into the league.

[ur_land]

Thats what we get for inventing a race that does not exist.


Strictly speaking, no races exist except in how we socially define them......

[depor15]

this is true but in a world in which we like to put everything into little categories we unfortunately do invent them

[denver_mugwamp]

I think some of these posts are going in the wrong direction. There's absolutely no chance that an up-and-coming young player is going to sue for the right to play for Chivas. The players you have to watch out for are the journeyman types--examples would be the 1995 Brosman (an obscure Belgian I think) ruling in Europe or Curt Flood suing basball in 1972. You get an obscure or average player, maybe near the end of his career, who is willing to take the time and effort to sue MLS. Let's say (for example) that Wes Hart is dropped by the Quakes and can't find another position in MLS. He wants to try out for the new Chivas team but they won't even give him a chance. Would he have a case if he sued MLS (not Chivas since the league holds the contracts)? There's a lawyer somewhere who probably would take that chance.

[Dave Brull]

I think some of these posts are going in the wrong direction. There's absolutely no chance that an up-and-coming young player is going to sue for the right to play for Chivas. The players you have to watch out for are the journeyman types--examples would be the 1995 Brosman (an obscure Belgian I think) ruling in Europe or Curt Flood suing basball in 1972. You get an obscure or average player, maybe near the end of his career, who is willing to take the time and effort to sue MLS. Let's say (for example) that Wes Hart is dropped by the Quakes and can't find another position in MLS. He wants to try out for the new Chivas team but they won't even give him a chance. Would he have a case if he sued MLS (not Chivas since the league holds the contracts)? There's a lawyer somewhere who probably would take that chance.

Who knows. I cannot foresee a scenario like that occuring. All MLS has to say is that we don't want to re-sign you, as opposed to: As you are not of Hispanic/Latino/Central-South American descent we cannot use you. Pretty easy to get around that one.

The two lawsuits you described above aren't bias or equal opportunity cases. Flood's case allowed player to become free agents after their contracts expired. I believe the owners had a huge deal of control over out-of-contract players prior to that. Bosman is the free transfer rule, isn't it? What is Bosman.

Get this through your heads. This is nothing to worry about. Chivas will not be the end of MLS. We probably won't get sued over anything that will stick.
The sun will rise tomorrow and American soccer will be played under it.

[thurd]

Fixed your post.

If the team is owned by a soverign tribe, alot of those pesky laws don't apply because of tribal soverignty.
The team of American Indians will not all be from the same tribe. The owners are holding tryouts all over the plains states. The only thing required to make the team other than the required skill level is proof that you actually are American Indian.

[United_Caps_Fan]

Who knows. I cannot foresee a scenario like that occuring. All MLS has to say is that we don't want to re-sign you, as opposed to: As you are not of Hispanic/Latino/Central-South American descent we cannot use you. Pretty easy to get around that one.

The two lawsuits you described above aren't bias or equal opportunity cases. Flood's case allowed player to become free agents after their contracts expired. I believe the owners had a huge deal of control over out-of-contract players prior to that. Bosman is the free transfer rule, isn't it? What is Bosman.

Get this through your heads. This is nothing to worry about. Chivas will not be the end of MLS. We probably won't get sued over anything that will stick.
The sun will rise tomorrow and American soccer will be played under it.

Totally agree.

So Chivas will be forced to look for mex/ hispanic/ latin playes who are U.S. citizens either by green card or birth, if they are that bent on that. Not a big deal. The bottom line for them is being competitive, successful, and making a profit right? So I really dont see that they would go out of thier way to pass up a better soccer player just because he is NOT of Mex/Latin/Hispanic decent. I dont belive for a second that MLS will even allow anything to come even close to being unfair or discriminatory practices by Chivas. MLS is awarding Chivas a franchise in its league, and that franchise MUST abide by the rules and regulations set forth by MLS. IF it chooses not to, it can be booted from the league much faster than it was granted a franchise. I just dont see that happening.

I personally have no problem with them "looking" on thier own for players whithing the United States who are green card or birth citizens. As another poster pointed out in another thread, im sure that there is ALOT of as yet undiscovered talent in those communities, that could one day not only play in MLS, but perhaps even make it to the USMNT.

Hmmm imagine that.. Chivas might actually be GOOD for MLS and soccer in the United States in some ways. :eek: