The Berbatov Challenge

[ovalball]

I read this on another site today:

“Berbatov, despite his superb goal, has yet to show his Tottenham form.”

And I wondered---is that fair? Do his playing minutes match up? Was he “the man” at Hotspur as opposed to playing second fiddle to someone else at Man U? Are the systems of play likely to yield the same results?

I asked the question, but seem to have stunned everyone into silence. No responses. Now I know we have plenty of "Experts" here who have unending knowledge of the beautiful game. (Where's "thebigman" when you need him?):)

I admit to ignorance on the question (I haven't been following the EPL long enough). I am simply looking for enlightenment. Surely someone out there has the answer(s).

RSVP

[Harry Boulton]

I see it one of two ways:

Either he is but it's not as noticeable because Tottenham are not as good as Man Utd?

Or the lad simply hasn't managed to find his place in the side yet?

It's one thing to be an outstanding player in an average side, it's quite another to be an outstanding player in an outstanding side. It's much harder to get noticed playing along-side Wayne Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez than it is playing alongside Jermaine Jenas, Hossam Ghaly and Michael Dawson. Berbs isn't the most athletic of players so the skill in his play isn't his ability to beat three men and drill it home, but in the more subtle aspects of the game. His lack of "work" is also made to look worse because he plays next to Wayne Rooney - one of the most relentless and hard working strikers in the game. A player who, more often than not, goes above and beyond the call of duty.

[ovalball]

Thanks for the response HB. For a moment I thought I might have stumped the entire world. Nobody had any idea??

Personally, I think that if Berba scores +/- 10 goals for ManU that he is in form, given the team he is on and the amount of playing time he is getting.

I don't see how he ever scores for ManU the way he scored for other clubs. That's not a criticism of anybody, just a byproduct of his current situation.

Put him back on a midlevel club where he is the go-to-guy and he's probably back to scoring +/- 15.

[pookspur]

I read this on another site today:

“Berbatov, despite his superb goal, has yet to show his Tottenham form.”

And I wondered---is that fair? ...

to answer your question, yes, it is fair. it is utterly true.

now, that's not to deny the evident reality that it is, indeed, harder to shine at old trafford than at the lane. no question about that. but he oozed class with spurs (at least in his first season there), and he simply hasn't at man u. and you needn't really bother with the +/- goals stuff, because it's essentially not about them. hell, he didn't score in many of his best performances with tottenham ... i'm getting misty-eyed just thinking about bolton at the lane in '07. honestly, you could take rooney, giggs, or whomever from the current united side, put them at spurs, and they still wouldn't put in performances superior to that. at united, however, he simply hasn't shone at those levels.

but rather than seeking the answer on the internet, just look at it this way ... would alex ferguson pay thirty million pounds for the player that he's seen over the last 13 months? we all know he wouldn't. the fact is that he paid that price because he thought he was going to get more than he's gotten thus far. there's your answer.

[worldsoccers]

Berbatov is quite lazy but he still can get a good performance in United. I hope he will finally win the Champions League

[Harry Boulton]

but he oozed class with spurs (at least in his first season there), and he simply hasn't at man u.

Yes, but ask yourself this question. It's easy to "ooze class" when you're in comparison to Didier Zakora or Gareth Bale. You have to wonder whether or not he simply doesn't look as good because he's playing with better players?


I think he is doing ok. He's not been as good as we might have hoped so far, but, as always, he's nowhere near a bad as some seek to make out. He has such rich talent but he's just not showed it consistantly.

If we can get the best out of his ability then we have a player who can stand toe-to-toe with the best around because his touch and vision are exquisite. But his form, and more worryingly his confidence, seem to be extremely shaky.

[ovalball]

... would alex ferguson pay thirty million pounds for the player that he's seen over the last 13 months? we all know he wouldn't. the fact is that he paid that price because he thought he was going to get more than he's gotten thus far.

Could that possibly mean that (gasp!) Sir Alex has made a mistake???

Call The Guardian!

[revelationx]

I think Berbatov had an underwhelming season last year. When people discuss the best striker in the Prem - zero people mention Berbatov as a candidate these days as he has been eclipsed by other players. When Fergie signed him many rated Berbatov as one of the best strikers in the League over the previous 2 seasons. Now his star has dimmed after last season. He will need a good season in Red this year to win over the Man U fans and to justify his price-tag as a £30 million+ player. With C Ronaldo and Tevez missing, Berbatov has to shoulder more of the attacking responsibility this season.

I think that Berbatov feels somewhat overwhelmed at the demands of being a record signing for Man U. I get the impression that he does not believe he is worthy of it and that he is in awe of some of his team-mates (not Nani or Brown obviously)! In an interview he did some months ago, Berbatov said that after missing a pen in the League Cup Final shootout that he had almost decided to never take a penalty again! I am sure I read that he was feeling nervous before matches such that he was physically shaking before he went on the pitch! Does not sound that he has belief in his place in the Man U side. If he does not have the mental strength to cope then he will definitely fail. It is up to him to overcome any psychological barriers that prevent him playing at his best. He needs to personally deliver this season though as Rooney cannot shoulder the entire Man U attack on his own.

C Ronaldo and Rooney both have oodles of self-confidence and can mentally cope with pressure , this season will show whether Berbatov can step up or not.

[ovalball]

I think Berbatov had an underwhelming season last year. When people discuss the best striker in the Prem - zero people mention Berbatov as a candidate these days as he has been eclipsed by other players. When Fergie signed him many rated Berbatov as one of the best strikers in the League over the previous 2 seasons. Now his star has dimmed after last season. He will need a good season in Red this year to win over the Man U fans and to justify his price-tag as a £30 million+ player. With C Ronaldo and Tevez missing, Berbatov has to shoulder more of the attacking responsibility this season.

I think that Berbatov feels somewhat overwhelmed at the demands of being a record signing for Man U. I get the impression that he does not believe he is worthy of it and that he is in awe of some of his team-mates (not Nani or Brown obviously)! In an interview he did some months ago, Berbatov said that after missing a pen in the League Cup Final shootout that he had almost decided to never take a penalty again! I am sure I read that he was feeling nervous before matches such that he was physically shaking before he went on the pitch! Does not sound that he has belief in his place in the Man U side. If he does not have the mental strength to cope then he will definitely fail. It is up to him to overcome any psychological barriers that prevent him playing at his best. He needs to personally deliver this season though as Rooney cannot shoulder the entire Man U attack on his own.

C Ronaldo and Rooney both have oodles of self-confidence and can mentally cope with pressure , this season will show whether Berbatov can step up or not.

Nice analysis. Berbatov may be a prime example of the "Be careful what you wish for," syndrome.

[Harry Boulton]

I agree.

Any player moving for £30m has to believe that he's worth £30m. If he gets nervous lining up for a league cup semi-final, it's no wonder Fergie benched him for the CL final.

He has bags of talent, bu if he's not got it up "there", then he'll never acheive anything of note in red.

I thought that winning the league last year as well as a pre-season might boost his self-belief and confidence but he still looks withdrawn and introvert at times. It's a shame because he's got as good a touch as any player in the league when he puts his mind to it.

[pookspur]

Yes, but ask yourself this question. It's easy to "ooze class" when you're in comparison to Didier Zakora or Gareth Bale.

er ... that's not a question.

... You have to wonder whether or not he simply doesn't look as good because he's playing with better players?

i'm pretty sure that's not either, though the question mark might just bring it in play.

:D ;)

ok, sorry for that. i get your point. but i respectfully disagree. or at least i disagree that he was 'oozing class' merely relative to zokora and bale. true, if you took berbatov's '06-'07 performances and placed them amongst united's squad's, he would not have been the automatic choice for the team's 'player of the year' that he was at spurs; but he surely would've been amongst the contenders. last season (and thus far in this one), he wasn't even in the discussion ... and not just because of one standout (ronaldo/rooney).


revelationx's point is a good one. i've no doubt it's down to his head, rather than his industry. even when he would dominate games for spurs, he never appeared to be working hard.* for what it's worth, i still think he'll come good at old trafford. but it's not because he has to raise his game from what it was at spurs ... he just needs to retain it.


*though i don't really know if united fans are on him for being lazy like spurs fans became toward the end.

[TabLalas]

If they ever have a "Who has the greasiest hair in the EPL" then Berbatov will win that hands down.

[Harry Boulton]

I don't know. On his day Tevez' barnet can be harrowing.

[TabLalas]

I don't know. On his day Tevez' barnet can be harrowing.

lol, too true.

[ranny fash]

I think Berbatov had an underwhelming season last year. When people discuss the best striker in the Prem - zero people mention Berbatov as a candidate these days as he has been eclipsed by other players. When Fergie signed him many rated Berbatov as one of the best strikers in the League over the previous 2 seasons. Now his star has dimmed after last season. He will need a good season in Red this year to win over the Man U fans and to justify his price-tag as a £30 million+ player. With C Ronaldo and Tevez missing, Berbatov has to shoulder more of the attacking responsibility this season.

I think that Berbatov feels somewhat overwhelmed at the demands of being a record signing for Man U. I get the impression that he does not believe he is worthy of it and that he is in awe of some of his team-mates (not Nani or Brown obviously)! In an interview he did some months ago, Berbatov said that after missing a pen in the League Cup Final shootout that he had almost decided to never take a penalty again! I am sure I read that he was feeling nervous before matches such that he was physically shaking before he went on the pitch! Does not sound that he has belief in his place in the Man U side. If he does not have the mental strength to cope then he will definitely fail. It is up to him to overcome any psychological barriers that prevent him playing at his best. He needs to personally deliver this season though as Rooney cannot shoulder the entire Man U attack on his own.

C Ronaldo and Rooney both have oodles of self-confidence and can mentally cope with pressure , this season will show whether Berbatov can step up or not.


pretty much sums it up.

I also wonder if he could really ever play his game comfortably in the same team as Rooney. I think they often end up inhibiting each other. But it's certainly fun watching them try.......if it finally clicks then it would be quite something!

[Harry Boulton]

That last point is important.

I personally think that Ferguson would be better playing Owen and "one other". Rooney and Berbatov occupy the same area's of the pitch and it results in them almost cancelling eachother out. Both are deep lying second strikers and I'm disappointed that Ferguson has not realised this. Both play better when they're playing with a proper striker who makes runs, takes the ball on and gives them a forward thinking option. It's like we're playing two Teddy Sheringhams up-front and leaving Alan Shearer on the bench.

Personally I'd start giving Owen more of a run-out, Give him a chance to play with both and then maybe we can start to get the best out of all 3.

[pookspur]

That last point is important.

I personally think that Ferguson would be better playing Owen and "one other" ...

i'm not saying that's wrong (in fact, i pretty much agree). but rooney's not going to sit. so that means you either bench the one you've sunk 30m in to, or the one you got for free. i'll grant that SAF isn't a slave to transfer fees, as sitting berbatov (and others) has shown. but which one do you think he wants to see succeed?

[ranny fash]

i'm not saying that's wrong (in fact, i pretty much agree). but rooney's not going to sit. so that means you either bench the one you've sunk 30m in to, or the one you got for free. i'll grant that SAF isn't a slave to transfer fees, as sitting berbatov (and others) has shown. but which one do you think he wants to see succeed?

I can't see Ferguson letting sentiment get in the way of judgement, he's too experienced and successful to let politics influence his decisions.

[pookspur]

I can't see Ferguson letting sentiment get in the way of judgement, he's too experienced and successful to let politics influence his decisions.

i understand what you're saying, but it's not just sentiment, is it? if diego forlan doesn't come good after a stretch, you send him on his way for whatever you get. if berbatov moves on after two disappointing years, well, now there's a pretty big loss. i'm not saying SAF would let that stand in the way of selling him ... only that he's going to have greater incentive to make damn that he's not going to come good before doing so.

or from a different angle, their relative price tags likely indicate the varying degrees of confidence ferguson has that each will come good. perhaps the word 'expects' would have been better than 'wants' at the end of that last post.

no quarrels, though. i get both your's and harry's points. i'm just saying that i suspect fergie signed owen as a backup to rooney and/or berba, and that he might be inclined to continue to see him primarily as such, given his overall plans for the squad.

just a thought, at any rate.

[Harry Boulton]

Well, it's a rod he's made for his own back, I'm afraid. But to me, and most other people, it's pretty obvious that Rooney and Berbatov, as a partnership, is never going to work. Berbatov needs players running beyond him in order to get the best out of him as does Rooney, and we currently have no players who make aggressive runs like that.

I admit it's a conundrum, and not one with an immediately obvious solution, but playing them together, with a midfield that never breaks and wide players who never breach the penalty area, is leaving us impotant at times, particularly against defences who like to sit deep and invite pressure. It means we play the entire game infront of them and never seek to get behind them, and players like Carragher and Terry live for that type of game. Infact, they positively revel in it. Meh.