FC Bayern Formation & Tactics Thread 2009-2010

[eissman]

Forgive me if this have been started already, I tried to find it and only discovered last year's thread of the same title.

So, it is high time to start this one, in light of all the striker debate recently.


==============
2009-2010 Season
==============

Louis Van Gaal has utilized 3 formations thus far this season:

4-4-2 (diamond)
4-3-3 (classic Dutch system)
3-4-3 (variation of above)


Most recent and successful formations have been the 4-3-3 including the following:

...................................Butt.........................................
.................................................................................
Lahm...........Van Buyten.......Babstuber.......Pranjic/Braafheid
.................................................................................
...............Müller........Tymoschuk.......Schweinsteiger.......
.................................................................................
Robben...............................................................Ribery
.................................Olic/Gomez.................................



*******Options******

GK: Rensing, Kraft

Backs: Breno, Demichelis, Lell, Görlitz

Midfield: Von Bommel, Ottl, Ailtontop, Sosa, Baumjohann,

Forwards: Toni, Klose

[eissman]

The debate recently has been over the use of Olic as the main target versus the use of Gomez. All of this is even possible due to the absense of both Luca Toni and Miroslav Klose, both recovering from injury.

LvG clearly has a concept of what he expects from a striker in a 4-3-3 formation, and while Gomez was doing his part in the 4-4-2 diamond formation earlier used when Bayern had neither Arjen Robben (newly signed) and Franck Ribery (recovering at the time) at their immediate disposal in midfield, it is clear that LvG expects something different from that position in the newly instated 4-3-3 formation.

In my time as a coach at a much lower level than that we are discussing, I have utilized both systems of play. While a tall target is ideal in the 2 man forward line, the reason it becomes more conducive is that the midfield is able to be more defensively stable with a 4 man formation (diamond or otherwise). Where it becomes less conducive is when you take a defensive piece of the midfield puzzle and put it in the forward line. This is where the qualities necessary to play the 'target' forward in a 4-3-3 system become redefined. As the midfield is now more difficult to defind, the forwards are asked to put more immediate pressure on the ball in the oppositions backline, particularly the central forward who is responsible for two CB's.

Here is where Gomez is not as conducive in my opinion as Olic. Barring the sole purpose of the striker - which is the simply score goals - Olic's workrate at high-pressuring the backline of the opposition when they have possession is essential to the midfield being able to defend properly, as the other two forwards have to collapse towards the middle from the wings.

The OTHER and equally as important attribute that needs to occur is the main central or target forward at times will simply need to keep the ball 'in play', meaning out of possession of the opposition and continuing the play anyway possible. This is where Olic has a distinct advantage over Gomez.

This is a feature of the attack I think gets overlooked... Olic has the ability to extend an attack with his workrate, whereas Gomez not so much. I have found this to be beneficial in my own 4-3-3 system I employ with my current team... the more athletic striker who may be less polished often times finds themselves on the pitch when we score simply because they are able to help keep an attack alive and not concede it to the opposition.

[shealygg]

Hmmmmm......must be a "teacher workday" today....;)

[Hendrik]

Will be interesting to see what LvG does when MvB returns in two or three weeks. The most likely outcome imo is that he drops the disappointing Tymoshchuk, but then the question remains whether two box-to-box midfielders like MvB and Schweini can protect the backline.

The other option, Tymo-MvB-Schweini is probably too defensive minded against most Bundesliga teams, especially considering Robben and Ribery are no great goal scorers either. Plus we know from his previous clubs that LvG prefers to play a goal scoring AM (not necessarily a 10) behind the front 3.

[Matakos]

Great thread!I think it is a very good idea, as there was very much discussion in the other threads about tactics.

To the point, actually the competion in our team is very strong this year which is exciting.There are many debates about the #9 position.Also, MvB's return from injury will heat up further discussions as to which players will constitute the 3 man mindfield.At the LB spot there is the fight between Braafheid and Pranjic.Each gives us different options but, to be honest neither has been very impressive so far.And finally there is also Demichelis who will sooner or later return to fitness.He will not be guaranted a starting spot in my opinion but will be a major contender for a CB spot.
All in all, we have a stronger squad this year.We have more options and depth hence all these debates about the starting 11.

[nekkibasara]

The other option, Tymo-MvB-Schweini is probably too defensive minded against most Bundesliga teams, especially considering Robben and Ribery are no great goal scorers either. Plus we know from his previous clubs that LvG prefers to play a goal scoring AM (not necessarily a 10) behind the front 3.I think this would be the smarter midfield to send out against top European sides allowing us to control the midfield with 3 hard tacklers, and spring counters using the pace of Robbery down the wings.

In the Bundesliga, for most matches, we can get away with MvB, Schweini and Muller.

I would play:

Bundesliga (against all but the top tear teams):

-----------------Butt-------------------
Lahm---van Buyten---Badstuber---Pranjic
--------van Bommel---Schweini---------
----------------Mueller-----------------
Robben----------Gomez-----------Ribery

Champions League:

----------------Butt-------------------
Lahm---van Buyten---Badstuber---Pranjic
--------------Demichelis----------------
--------v. Bommel---Schweini-----------
Robben---------Gomez------------Ribery

Bring Mueller in the 2nd half for Schweini to add a little extra to our attack.

I think our best option at DM is still Martin Demichelis. He is much better at positioning and tackling than Tymo, and no matter what he says that is his best position. We all know that the only reason he refuses to play there is that he wont make the Argentinian NT as a DM.

I think a central defense of DvB and Badstuber, with Demichelis playing as a out and out destroyer in front of them would be formidable. This would allow MvB and Schweini or Mueller to push up into the attack more, and work more on possession. Our central midfield would be extremely difficult to break down, and would have 2 players who are good at distribution and long passes. We could be devastating on the counter by allowing Robbery to have nearly 0 defensive duties in this case.

[shealygg]

I think our best option at DM is still Martin Demichelis. He is much better at positioning and tackling than Tymo, and no matter what he says that is his best position. We all know that the only reason he refuses to play there is that he wont make the Argentinian NT as a DM.



Not so sure about that right now....they seem to be hurting pretty badly ATM!!

[eissman]

I think our best option at DM is still Martin Demichelis. He is much better at positioning and tackling than Tymo, and no matter what he says that is his best position. We all know that the only reason he refuses to play there is that he wont make the Argentinian NT as a DM.

I think a central defense of DvB and Badstuber, with Demichelis playing as a out and out destroyer in front of them would be formidable. This would allow MvB and Schweini or Mueller to push up into the attack more, and work more on possession. Our central midfield would be extremely difficult to break down, and would have 2 players who are good at distribution and long passes. We could be devastating on the counter by allowing Robbery to have nearly 0 defensive duties in this case.

Fully agree. I LOVED Demichelis as a DM for Bayern in the past. He was always successful there. I believe as well that DM is in fact his best position at Bayern.

[eissman]

I wish Bayern could shore up a true Left Back as well sometime soon. The reason we see less from Ribery has a bit to do with his still finding his match fitness, but realistically it has a LOT to do with no Philip Lahm behind him at LB. I like the move of Lahm to RB, BUT the understanding between Ribery and Lahm was magic on the left.

So far neither Pranjic or Braafheid have panned out. That we know. Neither seem inclined to attack and neither can serve their own supper!

If bringing Mark Von Bommel back into the starting XI and using Demichelis as another DM were in fact something that happened this season, then I would love to take Schweinsteiger out of that attacking midfield role and put him at LB. Craziness, I know, but I remember him having some success there in the past. This ISN'T at all saying he isn't performing in midfield and thus should move... to the contrary... we are getting some consistancy it seems from Schweinsteiger. But out of all the other choices we have at LB on the roster, I would like to see how he fits in. He knows how to play wide left, as he did so much under Hitzfeld, and he has played LB under Magath when needed.

A backline and midfield could look like this:
(Bundesliga)
.........................Butt......................
Lahm.....Van Buyten.....Babstuber....Schweini
..............Von Bommel...Demichelis......
.......................Mueller....................


or even:
(Champions League)
.........................Butt......................
Lahm.....Van Buyten.....Babstuber....Schweini
..............Tymoschuk...Demichelis......
.....................Von Bommel..............


I am not one to give up on new signings, but after a point, one must cut your losses and move on. I think Tymoschuk has shown more promise than Pranjic/Braafheid, but I would prefer to see more. I think Tymo is also another signing that was 'pre LvG', much like Gomez, so that potentially could be working against him when MVB returns to full fitness.

Again, I would LOVE to see Demichelis there.

[eissman]

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18911896&postcount=26


Give this little nugget... that LvG will try Tymo at RB upon MVB's return to the lineup... that puts a whole new twist on this lineup now.


VERY VERY VERY interesting. I like how this coach thinks! :D


.........................Butt......................
Tymo.....Van Buyten.....Babstuber......Lahm
.............Von Bommel...Schweini......
.......................Mueller....................
Robben.......................................Ribery
................Olic/Klose/Gomez.............

or

.........................Butt......................
Tymo.....Van Buyten.....Babstuber......Lahm
.....................Demichelis..................
............Von Bommel...Schweini......
Robben.......................................Ribery
.......................Mueller....................

[shealygg]

How do you like how he thinks about today's CL lineup? Ottl supposedly matched up against Diego....

[eissman]

How do you like how he thinks about today's CL lineup? Ottl supposedly matched up against Diego....

Ottl??!!!?????? (gulp)


WTF! :eek:

[ForeverRed]

Will be interesting to see what LvG does when MvB returns in two or three weeks. The most likely outcome imo is that he drops the disappointing Tymoshchuk, but then the question remains whether two box-to-box midfielders like MvB and Schweini can protect the backline.

The other option, Tymo-MvB-Schweini is probably too defensive minded against most Bundesliga teams, especially considering Robben and Ribery are no great goal scorers either. Plus we know from his previous clubs that LvG prefers to play a goal scoring AM (not necessarily a 10) behind the front 3.

I don't see anything wrong with a midfield of Tymo-Schweinsteiger-MvB. MvB is perfectly capable of going forward. He was only asked to play a more defensive role because we lost Hargreaves. His natural role is a more balanced central midfield role in which he can both track back as well as attack and link up with the rest of the team. That is what he should be utilized as. Tymo as the DM is fine, I don't get the overreaction or even calls to drop him alltogether. In time he will be a huge asset and consistently reliable.

I think LvG is still in the phase of experimenting and trying out different things. Thats why there hasn't really been a consistent line up from game to game, nothing wrong with that.

[Equilibrium]

Champions League-

Home matches:

---------------Gomez---------------
--Ribery-------------------Robben--
---------------Muller----------------
---------Schweini--Bommel--------
Lahm--------------------------Tymo
-------Badstuber---Buyten----------
----------------Butt------------------

Away matches:

---------------Gomez----------------
--Ribery-------------------Robben--
---------Schweini---Bommel--------
-------------Demichellis------------
Lahm--------------------------Tymo
-------Badstuber---Buyten----------
----------------Butt------------------

Bundesliga-

Vs Defensive teams:

---------------Gomez---------------
--Ribery-------------------Robben--
---------------Mul/Sosa-------------
---------Schweini--Bommel--------
Lahm--------------------------Tymo
-------Badstuber---Buyten----------
----------------Butt------------------

or

-----------Gomez---Klose-----------
--Ribery-------------------Robben--
---------Schweini--Bommel--------
Lahm--------------------------Tymo
-------Badstuber---Buyten----------
----------------Butt------------------

Hard matches:

---------------Gomez---------------
--Ribery-------------------Robben--
---------------Muller----------------
---------Schweini--Bommel--------
Lahm--------------------------Tymo
-------Badstuber---Buyten----------
----------------Butt------------------

[Dr.Phil]

I would much rather see Altintop at RB then Tymo

[Zullu]

.........................Butt......................
Tymo.....Van Buyten.....Babstuber......Lahm
.....................Demichelis..................
............Von Bommel...Schweini......
Robben.......................................Ribery
.......................Mueller....................


What a bitch this would be to play against:)

Apart from that, maybe MvB and Robben will bring some advantages from playing 2gether in dutch NT

Btw at what point this year are we allowed to call Müller a succes? Cos he is by far the second best new player here

[eissman]

I would much rather see Altintop at RB then Tymo

I would two. I think Ailtontop in the back with Tymo AND MVB in the center would be solid.
Unfortunately, LvG hasn't even considered Ailtontop this option yet, or we would have seen it.

I would rather see Schweinisteiger at RB before Tymo as well, but the fact of the matter is LvG has only hinted at the Tymo situation.

[eissman]

What a bitch this would be to play against:)

Apart from that, maybe MvB and Robben will bring some advantages from playing 2gether in dutch NT

Btw at what point this year are we allowed to call Müller a succes? Cos he is by far the second best new player here

This would be an ideal formation for:
a) away Bundesliga matches against top tier opponents
b) Champions League matches, especially away to Bordeaux and Juventus

The midfield would be stiffling hopefully. I would actually rather see Schweini at RB than Tymo, but regardless, Demichelis at DM freeing up both MVB and Schweini with Mueller up top is just mouth-watering!

[Equilibrium]

I hope now Gomez starts for us now that both of the pretenders have proved a point.

[Equilibrium]

First of all, congrats to the defense on only conceding 3 goals in 8 games. It's one hell of a job, and 2 of the goals were also avoidable which is good news. Now I am getting sick and tired of our team being so utterly crap 1st half of every game. The announcer just stated that our team has scored 25th minute the earliest the entire season. That is absolutely pathetic, and we wonder why teams bunker down on us. The only time our team went for it from the beginning was the Juve game. Van G needs to motivate the team to have a great high-paced 20 minutes into the game. If we get an early goal there, we can counter and don't have to worry for teams like today or 2 weeks ago to play utterly disgusting football by literally playing 11-0-0 vs us the entire game. We need to go hard in the beginning, score one and then often other goals will follow as they will come out of their shell.