Portland MLS stadium capacity/price discussion

[Defenestration]

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2009/09/pge_park_would_have_similar_ca.html


I'm not trying to stir the pot here, but weren't all you Portlanders telling us that you guys were going to sell out 25k a game every year? And that this was going to be a huge cash cow, etc ...

17k is pretty small. I thought your ownership group would have been aiming higher than that. And the screens? Is that a joke? You don't need screens in a stadium that small. You need screens in a stadium of 60k, not 17k.

I thought this Paulson guy was bright and ambitious, but this sounds TERRIBLE.

[HailtotheKing]

"The screens could be rolled back to increase capacity to 22K"

[Paul Schmidt]

It's an architect's statement, I believe. Do they have it in for us after the MC debacle?

Seriously, the screen would cover what many people assume would be seating that remained, but those of us a little more inside figured would become luxury suites. The point is to not have substantial seating behind the posts in the "main stand", save costs, AND make the fire marshal happier (it's not the best place in the park in an emergency). This is where the $6 million reduction in the project funding has probably hit.

A rumor has bubbled up that Paulson intends to maintain the view from the fence on 18th Avenue, which probably should have raised a flag in my mind that the capacity would be lower.

Things that are up in the air that could still be done... extension of anywhere from 6 to 12 rows to the field from the main stand, where a 12' high wall currently exists for most of the length. Also, we could be talking about 17,000 when temporary seating is deployed in the standing area, which could probably fit more for the Timbers.

So, yes, I'm concerned. I want to see more capacity. I think the stage is either a bad idea or total genius given the supposedly failing Clark County Amphitheater. However, let this play out first. We'll see.

[Darth Vegas]

I doubt the screens will be used very often, Portland loves its soccer. But its good that they are keeping options available just in case the economy is still rocky down there.

[bright]

I think the stage is either a bad idea or total genius given the supposedly failing Clark County Amphitheater.

I'm not sure how the Goose Hollow Neighborhood Association and Multnomah Athletic Club would feel about more concerts. Right now, there is just one concert associated with the Rose Festival in the summer, correct?

[CuriousGeorge]

"Stephen Sefton, a designer with Ellerbe Becket, a San Francisco firm working on the remodel, says soccer crowds are not likely to exceed 17,000. If they do, the screen could be rolled up to bring capacity to 22,000. In the meantime, the hidden seats wouldn't show up on TV."

This is simply a good marketing plan. Better to have the average MLS crowd of 15,000 packed into 17,000 seats than spread across 22,000. Get the fan excitment that comes from a packed house going and it will become a hot ticket. Other teams should be this shrewd.

[Paul Schmidt]

I'm not sure how the Goose Hollow Neighborhood Association and Multnomah Athletic Club would feel about more concerts. Right now, there is just one concert associated with the Rose Festival in the summer, correct?

Paulson has probably been keeping the MAC in the loop. He's a member.

You may be right about Goose Hollow- and I reside there- and I can see how it's a disposable part of the plan. Thing is, more concerts were promised as part of the last renovation, and no ownership has truly delivered on that. If anything, there would be more chuckles than concern regarding this idea.

[Asprilla9]

there's very little in that article that isn't disturbing on some level:

1. Screens? Lame. And won't be needed for anything other than early round US Open Cup matches.

2. 17k? A bit small isn't it? They get 12-14k on non-promo nights to watch USL ... I don't think they'll have any problem filling 17k.

3. Stage? I want Paulson to be able to make as much money as possible with this venture, but a concert stage effectively shoots down any hopes of putting real grass in there. unless you want a pitch that looks like shit (or looks like the HDC). I can't see how you would have concerts on grass in the Pacific NW. Unless you have them all during July-Sept.


So whoever wrote this article at the Oregonian ... fie upon you! I will hope it's not true. :)

[bright]

17k is pretty small. I thought your ownership group would have been aiming higher than that.

While the USL Timbers have slowly increased attendance over the years to the point where they have averaged over 9500/game this season, many of their games take place on Thursdays (I counted 7 out of 15) during which they offer discounted beer. This is called "Thirsty Thursdays", and it is done for the AAA baseball Beavers, as well.

Upon moving to MLS, these types of practices are likely not feasible. Ticket prices will increase as will concession prices. The player budget will be higher, the marketing budget will be higher, and there will be a lot of debt to pay off due to the additional renovations.

In the end, the higher prices will likely be an obstacle to attendance, but overall there will be a net monetary gain. So 17K is not really that bad.

[Asprilla9]

While the USL Timbers have slowly increased attendance over the years to the point where they have averaged over 9500/game this season, many of their games take place on Thursdays (I counted 7 out of 15) during which they offer discounted beer. This is called "Thirsty Thursdays", and it is done for the AAA baseball Beavers, as well.

they do draw well on those thirsty thursdays but portland has not relied on that for its numbers though. they got 12k on a random saturday night about 6 weeks ago. i asked around on what the promo was and no one had any clue. come to find out, it was actually Nike bag night or something, like the first 200 fans got free Nike bags or something. whatever it was the promo was not driving 12k fans to that game. they went FOR the game. and Portland has had several other similar examples to that.

it's a little insulting when people bring up the thirsty thursday thing like it friggin made the franchise or something.

[soccerfan]

You think small You will be small,
You think Big you will be big

[Earthshaker]

You think small You will be small,
You think Big you will be big

Thanks Bruce Lee.:rolleyes:

[Mr. Bandwagon]

the sky is falling! the sky is falling! :D

[bright]

Portland Timbers regular season attendance for 2009. Promotions are included after the dash. Thirsty Thursdays are indicated by a *.


1 8549* Thu 04/30 Carolina - magnet schedule (1st 2000)
2 6742 Sat 05/02 Carolina - poster map (1st 2000)

3 7556* Thu 05/14 Rochester

4 9081 Sat 05/30 Vancouver - water bottle (1st 2000)
5 6427* Thu 06/04 Montreal

6 8111 Fri 06/19 Minnesota

7 7783 Sun 06/28 Montreal

8 14103* Thu 07/23 Puerto Rico [1st home match after USOC on 07/01]

9 10786* Thu 08/06 Vancouver - Nike giveaway (1st 1000 kids u-12)
10 9477 Sat 08/08 Charleston

11 13845 Sat 08/22 Miami - youth replica jersey (1st 2000 kids u-12)

12 11683* Thu 09/03 Rochester

13 10141 Fri 09/11 Austin
14 9157 Sun 09/13 Cleveland
15 12567* Thu 09/17 Cleveland - fan choice (1st 2000) & fireworks

[carnifex2005]

Thanks Bruce Lee.:rolleyes:

I would have said "Thanks Splinter." but that works too.

[armani]

is no one taking into account seattles or torontos number as a new sort of measuring stick for future mls stadiums. Seems we have gone from building 24-27k stadiums to 15-17k stadiums despite the fact that the new markets have shown it is possible to get 20k plus on a regular basis.. Look at toronto, they now have the problem of needing to expand due to high demand. Im sure future mls teams will have no problem selling out. Philly already has over 10k season tix sold, The appetite for soccer is there and will only grow as the world cup comes around. They should revert to making 25-29k stadiums again. Bigger is better

[dabes2]

The stage design in Salt Lake is good. The seats covering the stage for soccer games can be removed revealing a stage underneath, but they look permanent. Hopefully that's the kind of stage you will have. Presumably, in Portland, they would also want a stage with a roof over it. Maybe it will turn out like a shed end and be completely awesome.

As for the grass/stage issues, Toyota Park manages it well and it's not a dry climate here. There is some kind of overlay they put down on the field and they can have events on Friday and a soccer game Saturday and the turf is fine.

[bright]

is no one taking into account seattles or torontos number as a new sort of measuring stick for future mls stadiums. Seems we have gone from building 24-27k stadiums to 15-17k stadiums despite the fact that the new markets have shown it is possible to get 20k plus on a regular basis.. Look at toronto, they now have the problem of needing to expand due to high demand. Im sure future mls teams will have no problem selling out. Philly already has over 10k season tix sold, The appetite for soccer is there and will only grow as the world cup comes around. They should revert to making 25-29k stadiums again. Bigger is better

Sure, it's a measuring stick, but that's all it is, and that particular measure is merely within a narrow context. A keen business-person needs to ensure maximum value for the investment, and thus has to take a lot of parameters into consideration when planning their investment. I don't think we should expect every single expansion team from here on out to bring in huge numbers in their first year. Every market and ownership group is unique. If an expansion team can beat the league average, that is a success, IMHO.

[krudmonk]

You think small You will be small,
You think Big you will be big
Big as Giants Stadium?

[dabes2]

Sure, it's a measuring stick, but that's all it is, and that particular measure is merely within a narrow context. A keen business-person needs to ensure maximum value for the investment, and thus has to take a lot of parameters into consideration when planning their investment. I don't think we should expect every single expansion team from here on out to bring in huge numbers in their first year. Every market and ownership group is unique. If an expansion team can beat the league average, that is a success, IMHO.

I think Portland may sell out 17k and I still like Paulson's idea here. Keep the investment down and see what develops. Even Seattle is managing ticket scarcity by limiting the sections open. He can always expand/upgrade. That will create more excitement.