Concerned

[Prenn]

I'm really worried about thursday.

I think the manner of yesterday's defeat will affect the team badly. We never play well against 'lesser' teams and I can see Switzerland fancying their chances against a demoralised England. I'm pessimistic by nature but I can't help but feel this has done too much damage for us to recover.

There were some positives from the game. Rooney and King were two but the big one was that we were superb defensively. Anti-English trolls at BS will conveniently ignore that France had no clear opportunites from open play and it took two stupid mistakes from England players to even give them a sniff at goal.

Beckham... looks like he's beginning to believe the hype about him. What the hell was he thinking trying to shoot from that free kick that was 40 yards out? As for the penalty... well... we've known for a long time that he's crap at them and now we've paid for his egotistical play. There are better penalty takers and I think it's only Beckham's trumped up sense of self importance that stops them taking them. He's quickly becoming a liability.

Owen... poor lad, he's lost the pace that made him so dangerouse. I said a few years back that his England career would be over by the time he's 26 for this very reason and he's not doing much to prove me wrong. His lack of pace means he can no longer turn the defender and sprint away, he keeps getting caught. He's a very talented striker but I can't help feeling that Vassell should be above him in the pecking order now.

Opinions?

[Matt Clark]

I think that's the biggest load of horsesh1t I've ever seen you post.

How's that for an opinion?

[Prenn]

I touched ;)

What exactly do you disagree with?

[Matt Clark]

Think it through. Let's leave the sheer buggery********ness of a result like yesterday aside (that's football, kids!) and look at things objectively.

We controlled the game against the best team in the world for 90 of 93 minutes and, but for two individual mistakes would now be talking ourselves up as the real deal because we beat France 1-0.

As you yourself say, we were superb defensively. We reduced Trezeguet to irrelevance and kept so tight on the best striker on the planet he had to ask Ledley King for permission to go for a piss at halftime.

In addition, we played well when on the ball. Less so as the game wore on, admittedly. Less so as fatigue became a factor. Less so as we began to play longer. But we played well nonetheless. I think I can expect no serious argument if I say that that was our best competitive performance since the last World Cup.

On then, to Beckham and Owen. Quick one to start "we" have not known for ages that he is bad at PK's. Because he's not. Two straight misses have nothing to do with it. The penalty itself was not bad, he just allowed it to rise slightly. My own theory about why people are suddenly so concerned about Beckham as a penalty taker is because it was Barthez who saved it. His profile as a hapless clown in this country means we can't accept that he just saved a saveable penalty. So it's all hands to the worry beads and Beckham's suddenly rubbish at penalties.

And Owen ... dearie me Prenn. Not you and all. When are people going to learn? You. Can. Not. Write. Him. Off.

Ever.

Ever ever ever.

So fine, he had a quiet game, largely due to two facts: 1) we were playing a counterattacking game in which Rooney was given license to roam back and collect and Owen quite clearly was not. 2) he was up against very good defenders.

So what? After one game, let's not be calling time on his England career and let's also not get into that claptrap about his pace. For one his pace is nowhere near as important a part of his game as people say and for two he is still very very quick indeed.

So to sum up ... I think there should be a rule forbidding any form of commentary upon a game, a team or a player within 72 hours of a disheartening defeat.

It brings the worst out in people.

[Prenn]

On then, to Beckham and Owen. Quick one to start "we" have not known for ages that he is bad at PK's. Because he's not. Two straight misses have nothing to do with it. The penalty itself was not bad, he just allowed it to rise slightly.

The penalty was body height and less than a body length away from Barthez, it wasn't too good. Barthez did well to save it, as any keeper does, but he only had to go the right way. Dare I remind you of Beckham's penalty against Argentina? He scored but it was awful, straight down the middle. I've never rated him as a penalty taker, he's no Shearer or Le Tissier, he takes very savable pentalties.

And Owen ... dearie me Prenn. Not you and all. When are people going to learn? You. Can. Not. Write. Him. Off.

Ever.

Ever ever ever.

I did but it's been a long time coming, a lot of what I've said is not off the back of one result. Can I write him off if he doesn't do it against Switzerland and Croatia? ;)

So fine, he had a quiet game, largely due to two facts: 1) we were playing a counterattacking game in which Rooney was given license to roam back and collect and Owen quite clearly was not. 2) he was up against very good defenders. [quote]

When was the last time Owen turned a man and sprinted away from him? He couldn't do it against France, he couldn't do it against Iceland, he hasn't been able to do it for a while come to think of it.

[quote]So what? After one game, let's not be calling time on his England career and let's also not get into that claptrap about his pace. For one his pace is nowhere near as important a part of his game as people say and for two he is still very very quick indeed.

Again this is not off the back of one game. If Owen's contribution to England is simply to stand up front and occasionally score a goal then I think I want Shearer back, he's better at doing that. What does the Owen of today offer to England that makes him more valuable than the faster, trickier Vassell? Now before you get all defensive of the fellow scouser (as I know you will) just spend a few minutes thinking about it. I haven't made up my mind either way but I certainly think Vassell is worthy of a start given Owen's lack of form, dropping Owen may be the kick up the arse he needs. Could you imagine how Switzerland would feel after being run ragged by Vassell for 60 minutes only to have Owen to come on?

So to sum up ... I think there should be a rule forbidding any form of commentary upon a game, a team or a player within 72 hours of a disheartening defeat.

:p

[RobB]

Owen...He's a very talented striker but I can't help feeling that Vassell should be above him in the pecking order now.

Opinions?

It would make sense to start with Vassell over Owen only if we`re going to hit long balls up to the front man. I`d prefer our midfield tried to craft some clear goal scoring chances in which case Owen would be far and away the best player for us. Against France, who play with two holding midfielders, we either needed width to get around them or do what we did, go long, we couldn`t play through them. That didn`t suit Owen so he had a very quiet game.

[Prenn]

I think it would be the opposite way round. Vassell likes to get the ball and run with it, Owen likes to be placed for crosses. If we were going to play the ball through the middle I'd have Vassell, if we were going to whack in crosses I'd choose Owen, if we were going to hit long balls I'd select Nat Lofthouse.

[Prenn]

I bet Matt's quietly seething at the monitor right now ;)

[Matt Clark]

When was the last time Owen turned a man and sprinted away from him? He couldn't do it against France, he couldn't do it against Iceland, he hasn't been able to do it for a while come to think of it.

That's nonsense. He has done it on numerous occasions this season in the club game (by common consensus a "bad season for Owen" despite the fact that he scored over 20 goals) and he retains the speed and the mindset to do it at international level. Fact is though that defenders of the Thuram/Gallas calibre were not born yesterday. They are not going to give him the space he requires to make use of that one most obvious asset. Come on - if Ledley King can keep Thierry Henry off his normal game then there's nothing remarkable or significant about Owen not shining in one game against the French. Plus, you must also remember what I said about the respective roles assigned to Owen and Rooney yesterday. Owen was clearly told to push on and play high through the centre to allow Rooney and Scholes more room in behind him. It is a far harder task to impose your pace from close in and without a run-up at the central defenders.

What does the Owen of today offer to England that makes him more valuable than the faster, trickier Vassell? Now before you get all defensive of the fellow scouser (as I know you will) just spend a few minutes thinking about it.

Not even vaguely defensive. I honestly do not believe there is anything to defend. What does Owen offer? He offers a proven track record, better experience and the dead cert ability to score important goals at important times. As he will again prove at this tournament sooner or later.

As it happens, I do agree that there might be something in the idea of pepping things up by sticking Vassell in against the Swiss and holding Owen in reserve. Totally up for that. If only to see how it goes.

[When Hell Unfreezes]

I'm really worried about thursday.

Me too - the Swiss looked very sharp against the Croats and if our luck is as poxed as it was last night we're in big trouble!

Nothing much wrong with the way we played against one of the best teams in the world - but that's what makes them so good - they don't stop playing 'til the final whistle blows! I seem to remember us outplaying Brazil for 60 minutes!

It would make sense to start with Vassell over Owen only if we`re going to hit long balls up to the front man.

Disagree - if we were going to play this type of game, we would play Heskey alongside Owen and drop Rooney - after all we've been saying for a while now, they don't complement each other!

Quick one to start "we" have not known for ages that he is bad at PK's.

Yes we have - he has the touch of a charging rhino - no way should he be taking the pens - he's always been hit or miss. If you are going to have someone who is just going to crack it as hard as they can we might as well let David James take them as he probably has the strongest kick in the side. I think I'd have let Ledley King take it - he couldn't do anything wrong yesterday :)

As you yourself say, we were superb defensively. We reduced Trezeguet to irrelevance and kept so tight on the best striker on the planet he had to ask Ledley King for permission to go for a piss at halftime.


Agree with this, but it cost us all our attacking capabilities from the back and the midfield were sat just in front of the defence, leaving the gap that Vieira and Makelele kept picking the ball up from to launch more attacks.

There were some positives from the game.

Yes there were - Rooney, King, lampard, Scholes, Campbell, James (other than standing behing the wall) but on the downside, Micky went awol, Stevie was brutal and Becky is looking very ordinary!

Thursday is judgement day - can we overcome this tag of doing poorly against lesser teams? I certainly hope so, all is not yet lost!

On another note, it looks like the security screening of travellers has worked - all quiet in Portugal, but riots over here!

[sendorange]

I rate Vassell highly for England but Owen should still play against the Swiss, he's still been scoring goals and getting chancesm and will find it easier in games when the team needs a win and will push forward looking for one. The first half against France he looked threatening when the ball was delivered well into him, almost got away a couple of times and then that would have been a 1v1 and an almost certain goal. He still very much has the ability to do that, even though he's not been in the very best form this year.

He does depend on the service though, and it was not coming to him in the 2nd half, which made him a liability. Vassell is better in those counter attack situations as he's busier, stronger at holding it up for a little fella and is trickier on the ball so he keeps it for longer.

The Swiss game will be a big test to see if Owen's really just suffering from the lack of appropriate service and Rooney receiving most of the ball, or if he's genuinely in a bit of a dip of form right now and needs replacing for a while with Vassell.

As for Becks penalty taking, for someone who has never been a 1st choice taker at club level he does do a good job usually, just not a perfect one. Scholes and Lampard are also decent penalty takers from memory, but I'm not sure they would be better options than Becks other than against Barthez or Casillas.

[Matt Clark]

Me too - the Swiss looked very sharp against the Croats

Erm ... do they also still have Corrie in that parallel universe of yours?

The swiss looked slightly less sharp than one of their stereotypical logs of chocolate cake. If we can't beat that shower of sh1te then we have no business being at the tournament in any case and it would be better for all concerned if we just ********ed off home and let the decent teams get on with actually winning something.

Nothing much wrong with the way we played against one of the best teams in the world - but that's what makes them so good - they don't stop playing 'til the final whistle blows! I seem to remember us outplaying Brazil for 60 minutes!

We hardly "stopped playing". Of course the equaliser, that late in the game, knocked some of the wind out of us, but the difference between what we woke up to this morning and the one we were all looking forward to at 21.33 last night is marginal. A single individual error. [/quote]

[Red Bird]

I'm really worried about thursday.

Opinions?

So am I.

I am not particularly sold on Lampard (sorry Londoners). He was more anonymous than Owen, before and after his goal. Since Scholes is reportedly injured, I'd say this a chance for a bit of tinkering. Put an anchor (P Neville or Butt), Bridge on the left and push Gerrard forward behind the front two who I think still ought to be Owen and Rooney.

[its called football]

I seem to remember a lot of criticism of Owen at the Wolrd cup, even though he got the penalty against Argentina and scored against Brazil. You can't write him off as he ca always pop up and bang in the winner, something that with Scholes not scoring is otherwise lacking from the England team.

[SwissGCZ]

The swiss looked slightly less sharp than one of their stereotypical logs of chocolate cake. If we can't beat that shower of sh1te...

If I had a cowbell right now, I would introduce your head to it...

[BaltimoreYankFan]

Switzerland 2 - 1 England : Disaster will strike Thursday. England will control most of the match yet fall to the Swiss on tactical errors and stupid mistakes. This game will reek of Sunday's affair. I can see the headlines now- "Swiss Sabotage"..... :D

[When Hell Unfreezes]

The swiss looked slightly less sharp than one of their stereotypical logs of chocolate cake. If we can't beat that shower of sh1te then we have no business being at the tournament

Your rose-coloured spectacles must have taken on a deep-burgundy hue, my dear. The Swiss created a host of chances against a stolid Croat side and we must take nothing for granted.


We hardly "stopped playing". Of course the equaliser, that late in the game, knocked some of the wind out of us, but the difference between what we woke up to this morning and the one we were all looking forward to at 21.33 last night is marginal. A single individual error.

Well we were certainly doing something different during injury-time, to what we had done for the previous 90 minutes - ball watching (aka stopped playing).

Anyway, if Scholes is injured, it gives us the opportunity IMHO, to play Rooney in his role, behind a front 2 of Owen and Heskey.

All credit to young Rooney (I'm not his greatest fan) as he has matured in recent times, hence the clamour for him to play, which he undoubtedly deserves. But this has thrown all original plans into disarray and cancelled out Owen's effectiveness as (and I repeat) they do not complement each other.

I most certainly agree that we should catch the next bus home if we don't beat the Swiss.

[Matt Clark]

Your rose-coloured spectacles must have taken on a deep-burgundy hue, my dear. The Swiss created a host of chances against a stolid Croat side and we must take nothing for granted.

Rubbish. They're sh1t.

[sendorange]

Haha, You're being very harsh on them Matt Clark :D

They'll raise their game enormously against England, no question about it. They may not have a great team, but Cabanas and H Yakin are lively, Frei has scored goals for fun in France - and at a higher rate than both Drogba and Cisse this season for example. At the back Patrick Muller is a very solid defender and Murat Yakin has a lot of experience.

England will have to turn in a good solid performance to get the win.

[Andy Bennett]

So am I.

I am not particularly sold on Lampard (sorry Londoners). He was more anonymous than Owen, before and after his goal. Since Scholes is reportedly injured, I'd say this a chance for a bit of tinkering. Put an anchor (P Neville or Butt), Bridge on the left and push Gerrard forward behind the front two who I think still ought to be Owen and Rooney.
I've seen Lampard a lot this year and he's one of the best English strikers around at the moment, despite the fact he's playing in midfield. That's why he scored the goal - it wasn't an accident.

Also, in this game where we held the French for a long period, who do you think was doing all the tackling to stop them before they got to our back line... it was the midfield, including Lampard, who helped contain Zidane, Henry, etc.