The thread to piss off every Hockey Purist/Whiner

[JMU Soccer!]

I posted this last year, and I believe it’s time for a redo and update, In the wake of Hockey Purist Mourning Day.

-Hartford never deserved the NHL, they were a novelty act to get Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull back into the league, a novelty act that lasted 16 years too long. Check out these attendance figures. From the 1979-80 season until they left for Carolina. Remember, Carolina doesn’t have nearby teams such as the Rangers, Devils, Islanders and Bruins constantly padding their attendance figures.

9854, 11703, 10586, 11506, 12059, 12769, 14230, 14574, 13821, 13705, 12404, 10896, 10144, 10492, 11822, 11967, 13680

-There are die hard hockey fans born in the sunbelt who know the game well.

-The trap is simply great clean defense, banning it would compromise the integrity of the game.

-The NHL is not as watered down as you are led to believe. The iron curtain coming down as well as the emergence of the American Hockey Player has at least doubled the talent in the NHL's player pool since the early 90's by opening the floodgates to talent from Eastern Europe. Hell, the NHL tripled in size in the late 60’s early 70’s, not to mention the WHA taking players away, and people still wax nostalgia about that era. If that isn’t watered down talent, I don’t know what is.

-The Talent level in the league has nothing to do with how well the trap works. Lets say you contract the league by 4 teams, sure, the more talented speedier, craftier offensive players will be consolidated down to fewer teams, but so will the more talented speedier, craftier defensive players. Letting the trap still be effective with the right system in place. Meaning teams that play good defense like the Devils will continue to win.

-Markets like Winnipeg and Quebec never had a chance to compete financially and it was a mistake by Ziegler to permit them entrance into the league and to give their fans any semblance of hope. Edmonton only continues to exist because they won their cups before financial reasons broke apart the team. And that was before Bettman. Ziegler never solved the financial problems of these franchises.

-The Devils are an asset to hockey, because they prove that you can be a perennial contender with a relatively modest payroll, good player drafting and key trades to build an exciting team. Yes, I said exciting team. (from last year)

-The Ducks played some great hockey and they deserved to be in the finals more than any other western conference team, including the darlings of Canada, Edmonton and Vancouver. (from last year)

-The reason for lower scoring and tighter playing is not due to watered down talent but due to the players getting bigger and faster but the rink stays the same size. You want more open ice, enlarge the rink or reduce the number of players on the ice. This way there’s more skating room. Players these days are so agile and fast that when someone gets the puck, they immediately have 2 defenders on them. Plus, goalies are better then ever before, as they get broken into the league at younger and younger ages. Additionally, their padding continuously becomes stronger and lighter, turning them into Stay-Puff Marshmallow Man clones with amazing acrobatic ability guarding goals whose dimensions have remained unchanged since the beginning of time.

-Hockey in the 80's was less interesting than it is today, because you had the same few teams winning everything, with an abundance of bad teams, and only a total of 5 teams out of a 21 team NHL missed the playoffs. You could pencil in the Northstars and Whalers practically every year as missing the playoffs.

-When teams win, people show up, when teams lose people stay home. That goes for any market, traditional or non-traditional. There are a few exceptions such as the novelty of a new franchise or new arena. How is the Chicago Blackhawks and Boston Bruins attendance these days?

-Fighting has nothing to do with Hockey and is just icing on the cake. Take it out, and the game loses nothing, besides the pro-wrestling crowd. Why do you think there is very little fighting in the Stanley Cup Finals? It serves little purpose other than as a circus side show. Yes, I’m sure fighting would have stopped Bertuzzi and McSorely.

-Nets over the end boards are no big deal, if they save one life, they're more then worth it.

The problems hockey is facing are financial, players and owners have let salaries spiral too high, and that has nothing to do with the NHL's migration south. Despite migrating south, attendance is much higher and there has been more revenue coming into the league from merchandising and tv rights then it was in the Ziegler era. Salaries simply grew faster than those revenues did. Not to mention a weak Canadian dollar making it more difficult for Canadian teams north of the border to compete. You can blame certain monetary and fiscal policies that have weakened the Canadian dollar making business easier south of the border.

The other problem that the league has is from self-serving hockey purists who refuse to support the league because some sunbelt team eliminated their precious original six or Canadian team from the playoffs. Then they make the excuse that that particular sunbelt team in the finals is boring and not worth watching. Such as the Lightning are the weakest team to ever win the Cup. If the Lightning were so bad? What would that make Calgary if they had won the cup.

Face it, if the Lightning or Devils were playing north of the border with their exact same playing styles, hockey purists would be idolizing them and labeling them anything but dull, weak and boring. John Tortella would be a Saint and Dave Andreychuk would be one of the greatest feel good stories of all time.

That was a great Stanley Cup Finals series wasn't it? Take off your '81-'82 Edmonton prejudice blinders already and enjoy the sport. Hopefully they’ll have it next year.

[ElJefe]

I'll help out:
The Dallas Stars are better supported financially by their local community than the Minnesota North Stars were.

The Colorado Avalanche are better supported financially by their local community than the Quebec Nordiques were.

The Phoenix Coyotes are better supported financially by their local community than the Winnipeg Jets were.

Without Sunbelt teams, the NHL would have all the national prominence of any lacrosse league.

If and when the NHL contracts, the number of Sunbelt teams that disappear is going to be far less than the number of teams located in "deserving" areas.

[dfb547490]

I posted this last year, and I believe it’s time for a redo and update, In the wake of Hockey Purist Mourning Day.

-Hartford never deserved the NHL, they were a novelty act to get Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull back into the league, a novelty act that lasted 16 years too long. Check out these attendance figures. From the 1979-80 season until they left for Carolina. Remember, Carolina doesn’t have nearby teams such as the Rangers, Devils, Islanders and Bruins constantly padding their attendance figures.

9854, 11703, 10586, 11506, 12059, 12769, 14230, 14574, 13821, 13705, 12404, 10896, 10144, 10492, 11822, 11967, 13680

But Carolina does have large numbers of people from the northern US and Canada living in the Charlotte area who pad their attendance figures.

-There are die hard hockey fans born in the sunbelt who know the game well.

Sure, there just aren't very many of them.

-The NHL is not as watered down as you are led to believe. The iron curtain coming down as well as the emergence of the American Hockey Player has at least doubled the talent in the NHL's player pool since the early 90's by opening the floodgates to talent from Eastern Europe. Hell, the NHL tripled in size in the late 60’s early 70’s, not to mention the WHA taking players away, and people still wax nostalgia about that era. If that isn’t watered down talent, I don’t know what is.

The influx of Eastern European and American players has alleviated, but not ended, the talent dropoff caused by overexpansion and failures in the Canadian youth development systems in the 1980s and 90s (which partially allowed for the rise of American players).

-The Talent level in the league has nothing to do with how well the trap works. Lets say you contract the league by 4 teams, sure, the more talented speedier, craftier offensive players will be consolidated down to fewer teams, but so will the more talented speedier, craftier defensive players. Letting the trap still be effective with the right system in place. Meaning teams that play good defense like the Devils will continue to win.

True, but doesn't change that the trap sucks.

-Markets like Green Bay never had a chance to compete financially and it was a mistake by the NFL to permit them entrance into the league and to give their fans any semblance of hope. The Packers only continue to exist because they won their Super Bowls before financial reasons broke apart the team.

Come again?

-The Devils are an asset to hockey, because they prove that you can be a perennial contender with a relatively modest payroll, good player drafting and key trades to build an exciting team. Yes, I said exciting team. (from last year)

Which is exactly the formula a team in a city like Winnipeg or Hartford would find more favorable to success, helping the league's economic health as a whole. And in fact that's exactly what the Nordiques and North Stars did before they were moved--how do you think Colorado and Dallas were so good for so long? Many of their key players played for those franchises in Quebec and Minneapolis.

-The Ducks played some great hockey and they deserved to be in the finals more than any other western conference team, including the darlings of Canada, Edmonton and Vancouver. (from last year)

Never said they didn't. But how many of their players were raised below the Mason-Dixon line? The team may have been located in the sunbelt, but there's still really no such thing as a sunbelt hockey team.

-The reason for lower scoring and tighter playing is not due to watered down talent but due to the players getting bigger and faster but the rink stays the same size. You want more open ice, enlarge the rink or reduce the number of players on the ice. This way there’s more skating room. Players these days are so agile and fast that when someone gets the puck, they immediately have 2 defenders on them. Plus, goalies are better then ever before, as they get broken into the league at younger and younger ages. Additionally, their padding continuously becomes stronger and lighter, turning them into Stay-Puff Marshmallow Man clones with amazing acrobatic ability guarding goals whose dimensions have remained unchanged since the beginning of time.

Agreed, goalie pads need to be limited in size.

-Hockey in the 80's was less interesting than it is today, because you had the same few teams winning everything, with an abundance of bad teams, and only a total of 5 teams out of a 21 team NHL missed the playoffs. You could pencil in the Northstars and Whalers practically every year as missing the playoffs.

Agree.

-When teams win, people show up, when teams lose people stay home. That goes for any market, traditional or non-traditional. There are a few exceptions such as the novelty of a new franchise or new arena. How is the Chicago Blackhawks and Boston Bruins attendance these days?

Boston's attendance is fine (altho they actually had a good team this year). Chicago's may not be great, but it's better than Carolina's or Nashville's would be if their team was that bad.

-Fighting has nothing to do with Hockey and is just icing on the cake. Take it out, and the game loses nothing, besides the pro-wrestling crowd. Why do you think there is very little fighting in the Stanley Cup Finals? It serves little purpose other than as a circus side show.

It's a part of the game. It can be used by teams to swing momentum in their favor, discourage physical play against their finesse players, etc.

Yes, I’m sure fighting would have stopped Bertuzzi and McSorely.

It would've prevented those incidents from taking place, the reasons for which are well known.

-Nets over the end boards are no big deal, if they save one life, they're more then worth it.

The problems hockey is facing are financial, players and owners have let salaries spiral too high, and that has nothing to do with the NHL's migration south. Despite migrating south, attendance is much higher and there has been more revenue coming into the league from merchandising and tv rights then it was in the Ziegler era. Salaries simply grew faster than those revenues did. Not to mention a weak Canadian dollar making it more difficult for Canadian teams north of the border to compete. You can blame certain monetary and fiscal policies that have weakened the Canadian dollar making business easier south of the border.

Don't disagree here. The NHL needs a salary cap.

The other problem that the league has is from self-serving hockey purists who refuse to support the league because some sunbelt team eliminated their precious original six or Canadian team from the playoffs. Then they make the excuse that that particular sunbelt team in the finals is boring and not worth watching. Such as the Lightning are the weakest team to ever win the Cup. If the Lightning were so bad? What would that make Calgary if they had won the cup.

I don't support a Canadian or original six team, yet you would consider me a purist. The Lightning had an excellent team--on the ice. They played very well throughout the playoffs, including the series against the Flyers, and their players deserved to win the Cup. They were the best team in the playoffs and one of the 2 or 3 best teams in the regular season. No-one's saying their players were bad. But again, how many of those players are from Tampa, and grew up dreaming to someday pull on the black and silver jersey and play in the Stanley Cup Finals (OK, the Lightning didn't exist when most of their players were kids, but if they win another Stanley Cup 30 years from now do you think even then they'll have anyone on the roster who grew up as a Lightning--or Panthers, or Hurricanes, or Predators, or Thrashers, or Coyotes--fan?).

That was a great Stanley Cup Finals series wasn't it? Take off your '81-'82 Edmonton prejudice blinders already and enjoy the sport. Hopefully they’ll have it next year.

I watched a total of probably about 5 minutes of the Finals, not because of any anti-sunbelt bias but because I couldn't bear to after suffering another heartbreaking defeat (wouldn't have been any different if we'd lost to Montreal). From all accounts it was exciting on the ice. Tampa Bay has a very talented team and they certainly deserved to win. But can you honestly tell me that Tampa's fans appreciate the Cup as much as Calgary's, or Philly's, or Edmonton's, or Ottawa's (or Hartford's or Winnipeg's or Quebec City's) would have?? I bet you that the main topic of conversation on Tampa Bay sports talk radio by the end of the week (and possibly as soon as tomorrow) will be the Devil Rays or the Bucaneers minicamps or the NBA playoffs--not the Lightning.

[dfb547490]

I'll help out:
The Dallas Stars are better supported financially by their local community than the Minnesota North Stars were.

The Colorado Avalanche are better supported financially by their local community than the Quebec Nordiques were.

Denver and Dallas deserve teams. Doesn't mean Minneapolis and Quebec don't.

The Phoenix Coyotes are better supported financially by their local community than the Winnipeg Jets were.

By a few billionaires with deep pockets, maybe, but not by the community at large.

Without Sunbelt teams, the NHL would have all the national prominence of any lacrosse league.

Yes, the NHL was doing horribly in the 1980s. Anyway, no-one's saying get rid of all the sunbelt teams--the Sharks, Kings, and Stars can stay (actually you could make an argument that Vancouver is a sunbelt team as well).

If and when the NHL contracts, the number of Sunbelt teams that disappear is going to be far less than the number of teams located in "deserving" areas.

If the NHL acts in short-term, rather than long-term, interest, then you're sadly right.

[JG]

Boston's attendance is fine (altho they actually had a good team this year). Chicago's may not be great, but it's better than Carolina's or Nashville's would be if their team was that bad.


Bruins attendance is always good, even in relatively down years. Chicago also has a minor league team drawing 8,000 a game.

[MetroAndAGuinessPlz]

The Rangers have been out of the playoffs for 7 consecutive years and AVERAGE attendance is about 99%.

[soccernutter]

That was a great Stanley Cup Finals series wasn't it? Take off your '81-'82 Edmonton prejudice blinders already and enjoy the sport. Hopefully they’ll have it next year.

Wasn't '82 the year that the Kings beat the Oilers? :D Miracle on Manchester, baby!


But Carolina does have large numbers of people from the northern US and Canada living in the Charlotte area who pad their attendance figures.

So that disqualifies Carolina?

The influx of Eastern European and American players has alleviated, but not ended, the talent dropoff caused by overexpansion and failures in the Canadian youth development systems in the 1980s and 90s (which partially allowed for the rise of American players).

The point is that with Eastern Europe, the talent pool is larger, and can sustain the talent drop of the Canadians.


But how many of their players were raised below the Mason-Dixon line? The team may have been located in the sunbelt, but there's still really no such thing as a sunbelt hockey team.

And how many black or hispanic hockey players are there? These things don't happen overnight.


It's a part of the game. It can be used by teams to swing momentum in their favor, discourage physical play against their finesse players, etc.

It would've prevented those incidents from taking place, the reasons for which are well known.


This is a whole different discussion that occurred earlier in the year. Fighting should be banned. But then the officiating should be stricter as well. As to Bertuzzi and McSorely, they acted because of the culture of violence in hockey. But there is no excuse for what either did.


I don't support a Canadian or original six team, yet you would consider me a purist. snip


In some aspects, yes. In others, no.


But again, how many of those players are from Tampa, and grew up dreaming to someday pull on the black and silver jersey and play in the Stanley Cup Finals (OK, the Lightning didn't exist when most of their players were kids, but if they win another Stanley Cup 30 years from now do you think even then they'll have anyone on the roster who grew up as a Lightning--or Panthers, or Hurricanes, or Predators, or Thrashers, or Coyotes--fan?).


How many players have grown up in LA and wanted to play for the Kings? You will never hear Marcel Dionne or Roggie Vachon speak ill of their time in LA. They are Kings through and through, even though the Kings did not exist when those two were born.

Hockey is a sport of social geography. Kids in Calgary or Montreal are more likely to be predisposed to play hockey because a solid chunck of the year allows for ice on ponds and lakes. Kids in Tampa or Miami are more likely to be predisposed to play baseball or basketball because of the sunny and warm weather year round (except for January and February, when everybody in Florida complains if the temperature drops below 60).


I bet you that the main topic of conversation on Tampa Bay sports talk radio by the end of the week (and possibly as soon as tomorrow) will be the Devil Rays or the Bucaneers minicamps or the NBA playoffs--not the Lightning.

You forgot to mention Florida and FSU spring practice.

[DoyleG]

I posted this last year, and I believe it’s time for a redo and update, In the wake of Hockey Purist Mourning Day.

-Hartford never deserved the NHL, they were a novelty act to get Gordie Howe and Bobby Hull back into the league, a novelty act that lasted 16 years too long. Check out these attendance figures. From the 1979-80 season until they left for Carolina. Remember, Carolina doesn’t have nearby teams such as the Rangers, Devils, Islanders and Bruins constantly padding their attendance figures.

9854, 11703, 10586, 11506, 12059, 12769, 14230, 14574, 13821, 13705, 12404, 10896, 10144, 10492, 11822, 11967, 13680

I can only think of two of hose teams even padding their numbers.

-There are die hard hockey fans born in the sunbelt who know the game well.

Of course there are. They are called Canadians.

-The trap is simply great clean defense, banning it would compromise the integrity of the game.

A Swedish wuss I see.

-The NHL is not as watered down as you are led to believe. The iron curtain coming down as well as the emergence of the American Hockey Player has at least doubled the talent in the NHL's player pool since the early 90's by opening the floodgates to talent from Eastern Europe. Hell, the NHL tripled in size in the late 60’s early 70’s, not to mention the WHA taking players away, and people still wax nostalgia about that era. If that isn’t watered down talent, I don’t know what is.

You don't know anything for sure.

-The Talent level in the league has nothing to do with how well the trap works. Lets say you contract the league by 4 teams, sure, the more talented speedier, craftier offensive players will be consolidated down to fewer teams, but so will the more talented speedier, craftier defensive players. Letting the trap still be effective with the right system in place. Meaning teams that play good defense like the Devils will continue to win.

It means getting rid of the players who wouldn't make the roster.

-Markets like Winnipeg and Quebec never had a chance to compete financially and it was a mistake by Ziegler to permit them entrance into the league and to give their fans any semblance of hope. Edmonton only continues to exist because they won their cups before financial reasons broke apart the team. And that was before Bettman. Ziegler never solved the financial problems of these franchises.

The teams were competing just fine until men like you had to come in and ruin it. Despite all the doom and gloom, we are still filling up Rexall Place for Oilers games.

-The Devils are an asset to hockey, because they prove that you can be a perennial contender with a relatively modest payroll, good player drafting and key trades to build an exciting team. Yes, I said exciting team. (from last year)

Watching the Devils play is like watching paint dry.

-The Ducks played some great hockey and they deserved to be in the finals more than any other western conference team, including the darlings of Canada, Edmonton and Vancouver. (from last year)

Suck up to Disney now aren't we?

-The reason for lower scoring and tighter playing is not due to watered down talent but due to the players getting bigger and faster but the rink stays the same size. You want more open ice, enlarge the rink or reduce the number of players on the ice. This way there’s more skating room. Players these days are so agile and fast that when someone gets the puck, they immediately have 2 defenders on them. Plus, goalies are better then ever before, as they get broken into the league at younger and younger ages. Additionally, their padding continuously becomes stronger and lighter, turning them into Stay-Puff Marshmallow Man clones with amazing acrobatic ability guarding goals whose dimensions have remained unchanged since the beginning of time.

Try watching an international game before you comment on that.

-Hockey in the 80's was less interesting than it is today, because you had the same few teams winning everything, with an abundance of bad teams, and only a total of 5 teams out of a 21 team NHL missed the playoffs. You could pencil in the Northstars and Whalers practically every year as missing the playoffs.

From 1979-80 to 89-90, The North Stars only made the playoffs 9 times. The Whalers made playoffs 6 times in the same period.

-When teams win, people show up, when teams lose people stay home. That goes for any market, traditional or non-traditional. There are a few exceptions such as the novelty of a new franchise or new arena. How is the Chicago Blackhawks and Boston Bruins attendance these days?

Better fans than Carolina or Nashville.

-Fighting has nothing to do with Hockey and is just icing on the cake. Take it out, and the game loses nothing, besides the pro-wrestling crowd. Why do you think there is very little fighting in the Stanley Cup Finals? It serves little purpose other than as a circus side show. Yes, I’m sure fighting would have stopped Bertuzzi and McSorely.

-Nets over the end boards are no big deal, if they save one life, they're more then worth it.

Nets do nothing to stop shots.

The problems hockey is facing are financial, players and owners have let salaries spiral too high, and that has nothing to do with the NHL's migration south. Despite migrating south, attendance is much higher and there has been more revenue coming into the league from merchandising and tv rights then it was in the Ziegler era. Salaries simply grew faster than those revenues did. Not to mention a weak Canadian dollar making it more difficult for Canadian teams north of the border to compete. You can blame certain monetary and fiscal policies that have weakened the Canadian dollar making business easier south of the border.

Try and learn more history before you make such statements. No #99 in LA meant no Ducks, Sharks, Sens, Tampa Bay, Nashville, Dallas, Florida, or Carolina.

The other problem that the league has is from self-serving hockey purists who refuse to support the league because some sunbelt team eliminated their precious original six or Canadian team from the playoffs. Then they make the excuse that that particular sunbelt team in the finals is boring and not worth watching. Such as the Lightning are the weakest team to ever win the Cup. If the Lightning were so bad? What would that make Calgary if they had won the cup.

Both teams deserved to be in the final this year. Calgary was popular because it didn't have a star-studded team and made it on simple principles. Tampa was a work in progress.

Face it, if the Lightning or Devils were playing north of the border with their exact same playing styles, hockey purists would be idolizing them and labeling them anything but dull, weak and boring. John Tortella would be a Saint and Dave Andreychuk would be one of the greatest feel good stories of all time.

Yeah right.

That was a great Stanley Cup Finals series wasn't it? Take off your '81-'82 Edmonton prejudice blinders already and enjoy the sport. Hopefully they’ll have it next year.

We didn't win the cup that year. Check you dates.

[JMU Soccer!]

I can only think of two of hose teams even padding their numbers.

Then think harder.

Of course there are. They are called Canadians.

Why don't you try living down there before making such a statement. Yes they're are some Canadian transplants, but they make up a very small minority.

A Swedish wuss I see.

A xenophobic Cherryophile I see. Do you say the same thing to Peter Forsburg and Mats Sundin? For the record, I am part Swedish.

You don't know anything for sure.

Yes, but at least I back up my arguements and don't just say, "F*** the sunbelt"

It means getting rid of the players who wouldn't make the roster.

Well duh! Of course cutting teams will do that. It doesn't need to happen though. My arguement is that so many contractionists think cutting teams will open up play.

The teams were competing just fine until men like you had to come in and ruin it. Despite all the doom and gloom, we are still filling up Rexall Place for Oilers games.

Men like me? I'm like Peter Pocklington who sold Gretzky and broke apart the team? They draw decently, because the oilers are competitive as of now, in their downtime back in the early to mid 90's they drew 13478, 13124, 12335 over the course of 3 seasons. Carolina numbers.

Watching the Devils play is like watching paint dry.

If they were your team, you wouldn't say that.

Suck up to Disney now aren't we?

Who cares about Disney? All I care about is that a deserving team and goaltender made the finals.

Try watching an international game before you comment on that.

Did you catch the Olympics? Did you hear how some players wished the NHL could play that way? Additionally, I got to see some Finnish Elite league action. Plenty of open ice. Of course, to a lot of Canadians, hockey doesn't exist outside their own country.

From 1979-80 to 89-90, The North Stars only made the playoffs 9 times. The Whalers made playoffs 6 times in the same period.

Okay, I was wrong on that one, but their fans still didn't show up.

Better fans than Carolina or Nashville.

Now your shifting the arguement? If these fans are so good, why don't they show up?

Nets do nothing to stop shots.

Tell a certain family in Columbus that.

Try and learn more history before you make such statements. No #99 in LA meant no Ducks, Sharks, Sens, Tampa Bay, Nashville, Dallas, Florida, or Carolina.

Again, your shifting the arguement, of course Wayne had an impact on new teams down south. Yep, Canada's hockey prize was Canada's hockey undoing. Remember, unlike a lot of Canadians, Wayne wasn't so selfish of his sport and actually wanted the sport to grow into new areas.

Both teams deserved to be in the final this year. Calgary was popular because it didn't have a star-studded team and made it on simple principles. Tampa was a work in progress.

Glad we can agree on that, not everyone does though.

Yeah right.

It's true.

We didn't win the cup that year. Check you dates.

I never said they did, but I have heard enough people wax enough nostalgia over Gretzky's record shattering season. 92 Goals.

[JMU Soccer!]

Bruins attendance is always good, even in relatively down years. Chicago also has a minor league team drawing 8,000 a game.

Boston was one of the top teams in the league this year and they were 21st in attendance. Source http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2004

But Carolina does have large numbers of people from the northern US and Canada living in the Charlotte area who pad their attendance figures.

Your missing the point, Hartford had 4 competiting teams within a 2 1/2 drive of them.

The influx of Eastern European and American players has alleviated, but not ended, the talent dropoff caused by overexpansion and failures in the Canadian youth development systems in the 1980s and 90s (which partially allowed for the rise of American players).

So what your saying is that the only reason Europeans and Americans are making an impact (besides expansion) is because Canadian talent is getting worse and worse?


-Markets like Green Bay never had a chance to compete financially and it was a mistake by the NFL to permit them entrance into the league and to give their fans any semblance of hope. The Packers only continue to exist because they won their Super Bowls before financial reasons broke apart the team.


Come again?

If the good people of Winnipeg, Quebec and Hartford were willing to open their pocketbooks and invest in shares of their team like the people of Green Bay did, and if they were to open their pocketbooks again every time the team needed saving, I'd be all for it. Green Bay is an anomaly of sports franchises.

Which is exactly the formula a team in a city like Winnipeg or Hartford would find more favorable to success, helping the league's economic health as a whole. And in fact that's exactly what the Nordiques and North Stars did before they were moved--how do you think Colorado and Dallas were so good for so long? Many of their key players played for those franchises in Quebec and Minneapolis.

Dallas wasn't that good for a 3 or 4 years after it moved from Minnesota, it had a decent year in it's first season in Dallas, but dropped off after that. It took a few years for the franchise to get going again....with a lot of new payers. Minnesota also had 1 winning season in their last 8 before moving to Dallas.

As for the Nordiques, they're team was built by the Lindros trade. They couldn't build a team to save their lives between the time Dale Hunter left and they traded Lindros.

Never said they didn't. But how many of their players were raised below the Mason-Dixon line? The team may have been located in the sunbelt, but there's still really no such thing as a sunbelt hockey team.

Here we go again. It takes time to generate players from their respective Sun Belt, it took the Capitals 25 years to finally do it in Jeff Halpern. What's wrong with having teams in the sunbelt to grow the sport?

It's a part of the game. It can be used by teams to swing momentum in their favor, discourage physical play against their finesse players, etc.

Curtailing violence with violence? Makes sense to me. Why does fighting in the playoffs drop to near zero then?

It would've prevented those incidents from taking place, the reasons for which are well known.

No, McSorely was put on the ice in the last minute of the game for the sole purpose of starting a fight. Fighting never stopped Ulf on Neely, fighting never stopped Hunter's hit on Turgeon, or his elbow to Gord Murphy's head. Fighting never stopped Claude Lemieux from biting another player during a brawl in the 80's. Fighting never stopped Adam Graves from slashing Lemeiux hand and breaking it. Fighting never stopped Eddie Shore ramming into Ace Bailey from behind and ending his career.

But again, how many of those players are from Tampa, and grew up dreaming to someday pull on the black and silver jersey and play in the Stanley Cup Finals (OK, the Lightning didn't exist when most of their players were kids, but if they win another Stanley Cup 30 years from now do you think even then they'll have anyone on the roster who grew up as a Lightning--or Panthers, or Hurricanes, or Predators, or Thrashers, or Coyotes--fan?).

Players take time to develop from their respective fan bases. See the Jeff Halpern example. Hockey is growing in those areas and the demand for rinks is increasing.

I watched a total of probably about 5 minutes of the Finals, not because of any anti-sunbelt bias but because I couldn't bear to after suffering another heartbreaking defeat (wouldn't have been any different if we'd lost to Montreal). From all accounts it was exciting on the ice. Tampa Bay has a very talented team and they certainly deserved to win. But can you honestly tell me that Tampa's fans appreciate the Cup as much as Calgary's, or Philly's, or Edmonton's, or Ottawa's (or Hartford's or Winnipeg's or Quebec City's) would have?? I bet you that the main topic of conversation on Tampa Bay sports talk radio by the end of the week (and possibly as soon as tomorrow) will be the Devil Rays or the Bucaneers minicamps or the NBA playoffs--not the Lightning.

So that's the arguement that the fans don't deserve the Cup, so I guess the USA as a whole doesn't deserve to win the World Cup then, because we won't appreciate it as much as England, France, Germany, or some African country.

[DoyleG]

Then think harder.

The Islanders and Devils don't pad other teams numbers.

Why don't you try living down there before making such a statement. Yes they're are some Canadian transplants, but they make up a very small minority.

Go to Phoenix, Tampa, or Miami and you would be surprised. Even Dallas has a growing ex-pat population.


A xenophobic Cherryophile I see. Do you say the same thing to Peter Forsburg and Mats Sundin? For the record, I am part Swedish.

They act more like Canadians and Americans now. They would probley beat you into pulp for being such a wimp.

It was the Swedes who invented the neutral zone trap to begin with.


Yes, but at least I back up my arguements and don't just say, "F*** the sunbelt"

Why don't you read history about the NHL v. WHA before you post. You would be quite surprised by what you read.


Well duh! Of course cutting teams will do that. It doesn't need to happen though. My arguement is that so many contractionists think cutting teams will open up play.

It would work by eliminating the weak offensive players and fragmenting the stronger defensive players. Hard to be defensive when you don't have the players needed for such a tactic.


Men like me? I'm like Peter Pocklington who sold Gretzky and broke apart the team? They draw decently, because the oilers are competitive as of now, in their downtime back in the early to mid 90's they drew 13478, 13124, 12335 over the course of 3 seasons. Carolina numbers.

The team was still competitive and drawing the fans after #99 left. The cup was won in 1990 followed by two sucessive Confrence finals. Fuuny that you only focus on three season in a decade. You must be a politican of sorts.

If they were your team, you wouldn't say that.

Oh I would. We Canadians aren't afraid about how we bash our teams for that kind of play.


Who cares about Disney? All I care about is that a deserving team and goaltender made the finals.

Tampa and Calgary made it on skill and determination. Anaheim made it on luck, a proud Disney tradition.


Did you catch the Olympics? Did you hear how some players wished the NHL could play that way? Additionally, I got to see some Finnish Elite league action. Plenty of open ice. Of course, to a lot of Canadians, hockey doesn't exist outside their own country.

We know it exists. We get more internation hockey than you can even imagine. You ignore the fact the neutral zone trap was created for the larger ice surface.


Okay, I was wrong on that one, but their fans still didn't show up.

You weren't talking about the fans, dipstick.


Now your shifting the arguement? If these fans are so good, why don't they show up?

Number don't mean anything when fans don't grow a par to begin with.


Tell a certain family in Columbus that.

The pucks are going through those nets as if they weren't there. Fans have to accept that going to a game means accepting risks. You stand a better chance of getting injured or killed at a minor hockey game than an NHL one. Americans just haven't caught up to that reality yet.


Again, your shifting the arguement, of course Wayne had an impact on new teams down south. Yep, Canada's hockey prize was Canada's hockey undoing. Remember, unlike a lot of Canadians, Wayne wasn't so selfish of his sport and actually wanted the sport to grow into new areas.

The only reason he went south as because Bruce coughed up the cash. Without that cash, #99 had better odds of ending up in TO than down south.


Glad we can agree on that, not everyone does though.

Fair enough


It's true.

If it was old fashioned defensive hockey instead of the neutral zone trap. Canadian teams are becoming more offensive minded now.


I never said they did, but I have heard enough people wax enough nostalgia over Gretzky's record shattering season. 92 Goals.

We gloat? Puh-lease. Scoring is one thing, not having the grit to win the cup is another. It took the Oilers a bit longer to realize that. #99 had more points in 85-86 than 81-82 despite scoring only 52 goals. He kept of the pace while with the Oilers.

[TheWakeUpBomb]

I'm sure the fact that two of hockey's best young players ply their trade in Atlanta doesn't make the purists happy, either.

[GringoTex]

I liked showing up at Dallas Stars games and getting drunk and staring at our Stanley Cup banner and staring at the tits and not really understanding a single goddamn thing that was happening on the ice and laughing at all the cities in Canada and the North that can't support an NHL team.

[ElJefe]

Bruins attendance is always good, even in relatively down years.
Only if your definition of "good" is "bottom third of the league":

2000-01: 15,432 (22nd out of 30, 87.9% capacity)
2001-02: 15,403 (25th out of 30, 87.7% capacity)
2002-03: 15,029 (21st out of 30, 85.6% capacity)
2003-04: 15,133 (21st out of 30, 86.2% capacity)

Good news, though. They did manage to outdraw the Atlanta Thrashers by 12 fans a game this past season.

[WarrenWallace]

I liked showing up at Dallas Stars games and getting drunk and staring at our Stanley Cup banner and staring at the tits and not really understanding a single goddamn thing that was happening on the ice and laughing at all the cities in Canada and the North that can't support an NHL team.


Quality.
(You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.)

[JG]

Only if your definition of "good" is "bottom third of the league":

2000-01: 15,432 (22nd out of 30, 87.9% capacity)
2001-02: 15,403 (25th out of 30, 87.7% capacity)
2002-03: 15,029 (21st out of 30, 85.6% capacity)
2003-04: 15,133 (21st out of 30, 86.2% capacity)



In terms of % capacity filled they're middle of the pack. But they've never fallen below the 85% of capacity range even in their worst (15,551 in 96-97, when they finished last) or most poorly attended seasons, while other teams--some in "traditional" markets like Chicago, NY (Islanders), and Washington have seen much sharper drops during lean years.

[skipshady]

But Carolina does have large numbers of people from the northern US and Canada living in the Charlotte area who pad their attendance figures.Charlotte? Good lord, if there are enough transplants who are willing to make the drive from Charlotte to Raleigh and back to pad attendance figures over the course of a season, then there's absolutely no question that Carolina deserves a team!

[JMU Soccer!]

The Islanders and Devils don't pad other teams numbers.

They do in D.C. So I'm sure they could have in Hartford.

Go to Phoenix, Tampa, or Miami and you would be surprised. Even Dallas has a growing ex-pat population.

I didn't say they weren't. But you're very narrow minded to think that only Canadian expats can know hockey in the south.

They act more like Canadians and Americans now. They would probley beat you into pulp for being such a wimp.

Giving me Wimp smack? That has got to give "gay smack" a run for it's money as the least intelligent form of smack on bigsoccer. (I won't even bother to correct your spelling) Plus, those two learned their trade in Sweden. As for the trap, it's not like it wasn't employed long before the Devils did it. The Canadians of the 70's utilized the formation. And the man who arguably brought it to the Devils was none other than former Hab Jacques Lemaire.

Why don't you read history about the NHL v. WHA before you post. You would be quite surprised by what you read.

You assume that I haven't? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that players that would normally serve as expansion fodder were scooped up by the WHA. Look at how bad the bottom feeding teams were in the 70's. (The Caps being one of them)

It would work by eliminating the weak offensive players and fragmenting the stronger defensive players. Hard to be defensive when you don't have the players needed for such a tactic.

Teams will always employ defense because offense will put people in the seats, but defense ultimately wins games.

The team was still competitive and drawing the fans after #99 left. The cup was won in 1990 followed by two successive Confrence finals. Fuuny that you only focus on three season in a decade. You must be a politican of sorts.

Pocklington kept trading salaries. The three seasons I focused on were the Oiler's weaker years, showing that even in hockey hotbeds like Edmonton, if the team doesn't play well, fans stop showing up. At one point, I recall Edmonton management, loosening the regulation on Alcohol sales at Northlands to get more people to the games.

Oh I would. We Canadians aren't afraid about how we bash our teams for that kind of play.

Yeah, "you Canadians" (in general) are just quicker to blame everything wrong in the league on everything European or Sunbelt. Never looking at yourselves (in general)

Tampa and Calgary made it on skill and determination. Anaheim made it on luck, a proud Disney tradition.

How many games did they lose before before the Finals? Two? Yep, that's what I call luck. Yes, and they definitely just got by the Redwings by only sweeping the series.

We know it exists. We get more internation hockey than you can even imagine. You ignore the fact the neutral zone trap was created for the larger ice surface.

Yeah, you know it exists, you just feel that if it isn't Canadian, it's crap. And for obvious reasons, the trap works a lot better on smaller ice surfaces.

You weren't talking about the fans, dipstick.

Number don't mean anything when fans don't grow a par to begin with.

Maybe not, but their fans certainly didn't "grow a pair"

The pucks are going through those nets as if they weren't there. Fans have to accept that going to a game means accepting risks. You stand a better chance of getting injured or killed at a minor hockey game than an NHL one. Americans just haven't caught up to that reality yet.

Again, if it saves one life, it's worth it. Of course, a lot of "Real" hockey fans seem to accept death or crippling as part of the game seeing how they defended Todd Bertuzzi.

The only reason he went south as because Bruce coughed up the cash. Without that cash, #99 had better odds of ending up in TO than down south.

Yeah, it was who Pocklington sold him though, and many argue that that move saved the franchise. Plus, of course, one can argue that Canada's own Satan, Janet Jones, had something to do with it.

If it was old fashioned defensive hockey instead of the neutral zone trap. Canadian teams are becoming more offensive minded now.

I'm sorry that you can't accept the fact that the trap is simply more effective than the "old fashioned" kind. So just because a team employs an "unmanly" Swedish system, that happens to me more effective, that makes the team full of wimps or Swedish wusses? Talk about pathetic machismo.

We gloat? Puh-lease. Scoring is one thing, not having the grit to win the cup is another. It took the Oilers a bit longer to realize that. #99 had more points in 85-86 than 81-82 despite scoring only 52 goals. He kept of the pace while with the Oilers.

The 1981-82 season is just one example that nostalgites use to describe to the uninformed how much better hockey used to be. I'm sure there are other examples that can be used.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against Canadians, fine people, just that when it comes to hockey, some, some and I do mean some need to get over themselves and accept the fact that Hockey is loved and played in other parts of the world (including the south) and not to be so defensive and xenophobic about it.

[AndyMead]

The pucks are going through those nets as if they weren't there.

Really? I shot 30 Hurricanes games last season, and attended about that many the previous season, and I can't recall a single puck going through one of those nets. I can't recall a single game on TV that I saw in which a puck went through one of those nets, nor can I think of an article I've seen mentioning a puck going through one of the nets.

Even the odd baseball makes it through the nets at ballparks, but the vast majority, and I suspect we're talking better than 999 of 1000, pucks are stopped by the nets.

[AndyMead]

And as someone who has averaged 25+ Hurricanes games per season - including the 60 mile drive to Greensboro the first two seasons - I would have to say that the lower attendance the last two seasons is a good sign. The Hurricanes crowds have matured, they are knowledgeable hockey fans. They are demanding of a good product. Fans want 2 things. If they get either they'll tend to be happy. The Canes delivered neither during the last two seasons, and the fans stayed away in droves. Fans want a winner and they want to be entertained. Carolina fans put up with the neutral ice crap/dump and suck team in 2001-2002 because they were successful on the ice. But the dump and suck, 3-1 losses night after night doesn't bring back the fans when the team is 30th of 30 teams.

It's the ultimate bait and switch. The team jacked up the ticket prices after rumbling to the Stanley Cup Finals in 2002, and rewarded the ticket buying faithful with the worst product in the league. I'm honestly astonished that the attendance didn't erode any further.