Chivas business/culture/legal model

[Viking64]

Mods, please don't move this to the Chivas folder, I ask that you keep it here.

Issue 1: MLS holds the contracts for all players in MLS. Vergara's team had better be careful about expressing an a priori hiring preferences for hispanics. It is close enough to discrimination to be taken to court. The actual quote was "We're going to look around and try to recruit mostly Mexican American or Hispanic players to the extent that that's possible..."

Recruiting only minorities might be construed as a form of discrimination. I am not saying it is or is not, only that under our legal system it could be construed that way.

Hooters got taken to court for hiring...only women waitresses. Eventually DOJ gave up because of bad publicity, but they maintain that they would have won the case because having boobs is not a prerequisite to serving food. Being able to speak Spanish is not a prerequisite to playing soccer in the United States or anywhere else in the world. Being hispanic is not either. So discrimination by Chivas the club could make MLS corporate an accessory to discrimination because they sign the contracts.

Issue 2: Will this do what MLS has not been able to do? Bring hispanics to the stadiums for good?

Issue 3: Is it true that Saprissa has a no-foreign player model, like Chivas Mexico? If so, this leads me to point four...

Issue 4: The culture war. That tw@t Huntington just riled up the right wing of the country with THE THREAT OF THE IMMINENT "reconquista" and now MLS is giving them more ammunition. I can hardly wait to read "The rich owner of Mexican soccer teams has established a beachead in LA with a team he claims will FORCE red blooded Americans to learn Spanish JUST to play on the team. Since when does the so called World's Game require you to speak Spanish? Since when is ANY American compelled to LEARN ANY LANGUAGE OTHER THAN ENGLISH TO OBTAIN ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN THE UNITED STATES?"

This is cannon fodder for people who think we need a national language and who portray soccer as antiAmerican. Again the quote above opens up some questions. Like "what if a player does not want to learn Spanish? Will be fired, or never hired?"

Comment away, but I'll be hoping the mods keep a tight eye on this thread. No name calling and no grandstanding. This is too serious of a topic to get out of hand.

[JG]

Issue 3: Is it true that Saprissa has a no-foreign player model, like Chivas Mexico?

Yes.

[Northside Rovers]

... but they maintain that they would have won the case because having boobs is not a prerequisite to serving food.

Well - it oughta be.

[Brownswan]

Since when does the so called World's Game require you to speak Spanish? Since when is ANY American compelled to LEARN ANY LANGUAGE OTHER THAN ENGLISH TO OBTAIN ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN THE UNITED STATES?"



BROWNSWAN RULES OF THUMB:

1. All laws should be in English.

2. All opera should be in Italian.

3. All football should be in Spanish.

All kidding aside, I have to agree that compelling players to speak Spanish on a US league soccer team is way out of line -- and probably illegal. Nobody on the MetroStars compells Guevara to speak English -- and he doesn't. Ruiz is not compelled to speak English, nor is he shunned by his English speaking mates or frozen out of the match; quite the contrary.

Realistically, it is helpful in most large, US cities to have some knowledge of Spanish, just as the majority of latin Americans in the States have a working knowledge of English, if they aren't already primarlily English speaking citizens.

If I worked in a bodega or a Mexican company located in the US, I would be better off communicatiing in Spanish. Is Chivas to be the bodega of MLS?

[texgator]

I ain't no lawyer, but I'm guessing that all they have to do is show the willingness to hire non-hispanics in the slightest way, and they will be fine. They can claim that they are looking for a certain "style" of player and that the Mexican style exemplifies what they are looking for. Or, they can have a camp and bring in thousands of players, regardless of language/race, to prove they have looked at all kinds of ethnicities and just naturally gravatated towards an hispanic core. Proving employment discrimination is a very, very difficult thing to do. The DOJ didn't just give up on Hooters because of publicity, they gave up because they weren't going to win the case. In order to really prove discrimination you have to find some hard evidence of a pattern of discrimination. Usually this will require some kind of internal memo or policy stating, or at least hinting at, a discriminatory stance. Even age discrimination, which would seem easy to prove (an old guy gets fired without cause and is replaced by a younger guy), is difficult without there being an obvious pattern of discrimination. All Chivas has to do is hire some non-hispanics in their FO, and perhaps one or two Mexican-American players and they will be good to go.

[kenntomasch]

Mods, please don't move this to the Chivas folder, I ask that you keep it here.

Issue 1: MLS holds the contracts for all players in MLS. Vergara's team had better be careful about expressing an a priori hiring preferences for hispanics. It is close enough to discrimination to be taken to court. The actual quote was "We're going to look around and try to recruit mostly Mexican American or Hispanic players to the extent that that's possible..."

Recruiting only minorities might be construed as a form of discrimination. I am not saying it is or is not, only that under our legal system it could be construed that way.

Hooters got taken to court for hiring...only women waitresses. Eventually DOJ gave up because of bad publicity, but they maintain that they would have won the case because having boobs is not a prerequisite to serving food. Being able to speak Spanish is not a prerequisite to playing soccer in the United States or anywhere else in the world. Being hispanic is not either. So discrimination by Chivas the club could make MLS corporate an accessory to discrimination because they sign the contracts.

This is the $64,000 question that's been asked over and over here - will someone challenge it? We don't know. We'll have to see.


Issue 2: Will this do what MLS has not been able to do? Bring hispanics to the stadiums for good?

Well, they seem to think so.

Garber on May 19:

“We believe that there will be a unique fan base for Chivas USA. We have not been as successful attracting and keeping the Hispanic fan for our current MLS teams and we’ve tried so many different things from different players that we’ve signed, to different marketing programs, different media strategies, both in terms of broadcasts and press relations. Our goal with Chivas USA is to have a team that will connect with that Hispanic fan that we have lost a bit of and we’re convinced that both of these cities are massive, have large soccer audiences, large Hispanic audiences, and believe actually that it will create a rivalry that soccer fans are used to in London and used to in Guadalajara and used to in Mexico City, so we’re actually pretty encouraged and excited by it.”

Also from that day, related to Chivas:


“(Chivas) will be a team that will extend the Chivas brand into the United States and hopefully will be attractive to lots of fans of the sport, both in the market where it will play and around the country.

We’ve said this, I’ll say it loud and clear: Chivas is coming into Major League Soccer’s single-entity structure, they’ll play by the rules of the rest of our teams. They will try to go out and be more creative in their minds in finding and discovering players that they feel fit the character of Chivas and they’re going to try to have an Hispanic feel to their team, and have the players speak Spanish, have the coach speak Spanish, and that is a very, very important quality for our positioning as the league for a new America. We think that it’ll give us something that we can even shout louder.

The dual city approach has been very specific to a Mexican club. We think that putting them in a very large Hispanic market, you folks know that. That’s something that we would do. We need to grow our footprint, we need to have more teams in more cities. But there’s a uniqueness to Chivas that we think will take us – we’ll take it on the chin a bit with those people who say 'Why don’t you just put them in San Diego, or why don’t you just put them in Houston.' But San Diego doesn’t have a facility that makes a lot of sense today, and Houston has got a 70,000 seat stadium that would be a challenge for any MLS team to play in long-term."

Issue 3: Is it true that Saprissa has a no-foreign player model, like Chivas Mexico? If so, this leads me to point four...

I believe that is the case, yes.


Issue 4: The culture war. That tw@t Huntington just riled up the right wing of the country with THE THREAT OF THE IMMINENT "reconquista" and now MLS is giving them more ammunition. I can hardly wait to read "The rich owner of Mexican soccer teams has established a beachead in LA with a team he claims will FORCE red blooded Americans to learn Spanish JUST to play on the team. Since when does the so called World's Game require you to speak Spanish? Since when is ANY American compelled to LEARN ANY LANGUAGE OTHER THAN ENGLISH TO OBTAIN ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN THE UNITED STATES?"

This is cannon fodder for people who think we need a national language and who portray soccer as antiAmerican. Again the quote above opens up some questions. Like "what if a player does not want to learn Spanish? Will be fired, or never hired?"

Okay, seriously, here's what I think will happen - some nitwit political talk show host will make an issue out of it and it will be a cause celebre in the mainstream media for about a week, week and a half. There'll be guests on the Today show, there will be columns written out of the sports section in your local papers, you might see something in Newsweek. The thrust of it will be "Is it cultural tradition or racial discrimination?" or "Equal Rights for Whites" or something bumper-stickerish like that.

And then everyone will say "Well, that was fun, but it's a soccer team, after all, so who really gives a rat's ass?" And they'll go on to something else. Somebody will clone something, or someone will get trapped in a mineshaft, or a famous person will say something incredibly inappropriate, and before you know it, the Olympics will be upon us, and then the election, and then it's Thanksgiving and everyone will have forgotten all about it.

[JBohland]

Viking64, nice post. I agree that Huntington's latest opus on the growing Hispanic "threat" in America has the potential to be applied by some nut case columnist out in somewheresville America to the Chivas case. For proof positive, check the Crew board where there is now a 6 or 7 page thread on Chivas that includes some rather borderline racist posts on the future of MLS and Chivas USA.

I tend to agree with TexGator that this legally will turn out to be of very little importance. There is nothing wrong with the club operating in Spanish language-players coming to that system will likely learn the language pretty fast (just as American players have to abroad) or will learn just enough to get by on the pitch. There may actually be some Anglo players that would like this experience to learn immersed in another language while still living in the United States.

If the club shows a willingness to sign all types of players that want to be set up in this Chivas system, I think they should be fine legally. I actually am hoping that this club could serve to discover some hidden talents not currently recognized by the ODP system over time. Nothing wrong with having another possible talent identifying system in place for US Soccer.

[Brushes Sand]

Viking64, nice post. I agree that Huntington's latest opus on the growing Hispanic "threat" in America has the potential to be applied by some nut case columnist out in somewheresville America to the Chivas case. For proof positive, check the Crew board where there is now a 6 or 7 page thread on Chivas that includes some rather borderline racist posts on the future of MLS and Chivas USA.

Thanks to MW for starting this thread, and this IS the appropriate
forum to discuss this topic. I've been following the thread on the
Crew board, and while I have been mostly ambivalent on the Vergara
questions, the Tunnel Vision on display is rapidly moving me in to the
pro-Chivas camp.

Those of you who, in general, are of the mindset that the United States
has carte blanche to tell anyone else where to stick it, please proceed
directly to the Crew board for further discussion.

I hereby plead with the mods to quash ANY subjective mouthbreathing
in this thread, immediately, and mercilessly.

-bs

[Dr. Wankler]

Issue 4: The culture war. That tw@t Huntington just riled up the right wing of the country with THE THREAT OF THE IMMINENT "reconquista" and now MLS is giving them more ammunition. I can hardly wait to read "The rich owner of Mexican soccer teams has established a beachead in LA with a team he claims will FORCE red blooded Americans to learn Spanish JUST to play on the team. Since when does the so called World's Game require you to speak Spanish? Since when is ANY American compelled to LEARN ANY LANGUAGE OTHER THAN ENGLISH TO OBTAIN ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY IN THE UNITED STATES?"


Here is a negative review of Huntington's latest work, by another darling of the American right, Francis Fukiyama, who argues that Mexicans actually assimilate into American culture as well as, and as fast as, other immigrants to the US from early in the 20th century.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2101756

But that won't stop hysteria.

Of course, the anti-Chivas hysteria might make people fans of other MLS teams, too, people who otherwise might not have gotten into it if not for the presence of a team to root against as much as one to root for.

[Bill Archer]

Those of you who, in general, are of the mindset that the United States
has carte blanche to tell anyone else where to stick it,

If there is a more absurd coloration you could place on the discussion, I cannot conceive it.

I hereby plead with the mods to quash ANY subjective mouthbreathing
in this thread, immediately, and mercilessly.


First time I've ever seen someone ask to have his own post deleted.


As to the topic, there are certainly legitimate legal questions, and I would expect them to be fully explored.

The questions that concernme are the perceptual ones because they bear directly on the future of the league, an issue near and dear to me.

HOWEVER, it's clear that starting a discussion with a reference to "stirring up the right wing of the country" and then pretending that you haven't de facto already taken a political position is not the best way to encourage a rational debate.

The concept of "reconquista" originated not with some lunatic fringe but with a Mexican-American student organization in California. I fail to see how it is relevant to this discussion, but your obvious attempt to color this as a "right wing" vs. "the good people of the earth" argument is, to me, EXACTLY whatis wrong with this whole debate in the first place.

[skipshady]

Here is a negative review of Huntington's latest work, by another darling of the American right, Francis Fukiyama, who argues that Mexicans actually assimilate into American culture as well as, and as fast as, other immigrants to the US from early in the 20th century.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2101756

But that won't stop hysteria.You're right, unfortunately.

I wish they could at least hold off on the hysteria until MLS allows special rules for Chivas. THEN, we can start the fist pounding and the vein popping.

I have a feeling all of Vergara's talk about a Mexican team is for the benefit of the Mexican press. I won't believe it until I see it.
Of course, the anti-Chivas hysteria might make people fans of other MLS teams, too, people who otherwise might not have gotten into it if not for the presence of a team to root against as much as one to root for.Also agreed. People forget that there are teams other than Chivas in Mexico. In fact, they have a league full of clubs other than Chivas, and the fans of those other teams, amazingly enough, don't support Chivas.

Maybe what MLS needs is a New York Yankees or a Dallas Cowboys that we can all despise. Whether or not Chivas USA can fill that role, I can't get worked up over this. Chivas USA is a good thing, until otherwise proven.

[mjtate]

Does the fact that MLS is single entity and the employer for all players impact potential legal challenges? Viewing MLS players as a whole, there isn't discrimination (opinion). MLS could make the argument that Chivas USA is a "department" within MLS, and that specific "deparment" requires special skills such as speaking Spanish? I'm not saying this as fact, just sort of saying what if.

[Chicagoon]

Does the fact that MLS is single entity and the employer for all players impact potential legal challenges? Viewing MLS players as a whole, there isn't discrimination (opinion). MLS could make the argument that Chivas USA is a "department" within MLS, and that specific "deparment" requires special skills such as speaking Spanish? I'm not saying this as fact, just sort of saying what if.
that would not hold water, since playing soccer does not in itself require the ability to speak spanish.

[skipshady]

that would not hold water, since playing soccer does not in itself require the ability to speak spanish.
Devil's advocate says:
Not so fast. A Hispanic division of a large ad agency can hire an all-Latino staff because their job requires the understanding of and interaction with the Hispanic consumers and client companies. Likewise, MLS can argue that a part of a player's job is to appeal to and interact with the community, and being Latin is a huge advantage, if not a requirement in fulfilling the role.

That said, I honestly don't think MLS will be bending the rules for Chivas USA nor do I see Chivas USA put together a viable team with just Latin players. It could happen, but I'll believe it when it does.

[(TxT)]

Non-Latino's should boycott the team and any games on TV.

[kenntomasch]

Yeah, that'll help. Thanks, Clint.

[Calexico77]

Non-Latino's should boycott the team and any games on TV.

If Vegara's policies end up being exactly what our more pessimistic posters have predicted (ooooooh, I love alliteration), I would call on Latinos to boycott as well.

Your post, however, is the worst kind of divisiveness we can ask for.

I've said this before, but we're clutching at straws, and making our own inferences. We know that Vergara wants to have players speak spanish.

NOT-SPANISH ONLY as bostonsoccermdl has slipped into her arguments, just that they should be able to speak spanish.

Vergara & Co. have also said that they would like to have as many Mexican and Mexican-American players AS THEY CAN - which indicates to me that they've already gotten a talking to about this.

The thing is, I agree with certain posters that, IF Vergara was to bring in an all-Mexican team, that would be illegal of course. IF Vergara was to bring in a team made up of exclusively mestizo or spanish-decent players, that would be bad for the league and probably illegal as well.

But I don't think that he's going to do it that way. It just wouldn't make sense.

I agree with Kenn, again, that it won't be a crap-storm of bad publicity.

[(TxT)]

If Vegara's policies end up being exactly what our more pessimistic posters have predicted (ooooooh, I love alliteration), I would call on Latinos to boycott as well.

Your post, however, is the worst kind of divisiveness we can ask for.

I've said this before, but we're clutching at straws, and making our own inferences. We know that Vergara wants to have players speak spanish.

NOT-SPANISH ONLY as bostonsoccermdl has slipped into her arguments, just that they should be able to speak spanish.

Vergara & Co. have also said that they would like to have as many Mexican and Mexican-American players AS THEY CAN - which indicates to me that they've already gotten a talking to about this.

The thing is, I agree with certain posters that, IF Vergara was to bring in an all-Mexican team, that would be illegal of course. IF Vergara was to bring in a team made up of exclusively mestizo or spanish-decent players, that would be bad for the league and probably illegal as well.

But I don't think that he's going to do it that way. It just wouldn't make sense.

I agree with Kenn, again, that it won't be a crap-storm of bad publicity.


Is the ACLU backing Vergara

[skipshady]

Is the ACLU backing Vergara
Not to turn this into a Politics forum discussion, but if Vergara does go with a Mexican and/or Spanish-speaker only policy (fat chance, except in the imagination of the more paranoid BS posters), then ACLU would be against Vergara.

Despite popular misconceptions and villification from the political right, ACLU policies are actually politically neutral - just ask Rush Limbaugh or Jerry Falwell.

But lest we get distracted from the main topic, the key phrase from this post is "fat chance".

[(TxT)]

But do the ACLU have knowledge of what might go down and are already planning a case.