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go_otrova
06 Jun 2004, 10:27 AM
Tenemos tan poco para destruir y tanto para construir...
Para destruir: corrupcion y falso nacionalismo.

-- Falso nacionalismo: politicos locales, mediocres y charlatanes que hacen de la politica un lucrativo negocio, y hacen del falso nacionalismo la bandera para evitar controles supra-territoriales. Que importa la bandera cuando tus niños tienen hambre y falta de educacion, o cuando tus ancianos mueren de pobre y no de viejo?
-- Corrupcion: el beneficio mayor es del politiquero de turno, siempre. Nada queda para la sociedad.

Para construir: carreteras, hoteles, medios de comunicacion, supranacionales, leyes, igualdad de oportunidades para todos los habitantes, industrias, centro de educacion, monedas, centros recreativos, etc. Tenemos un mismo idioma, tenemos una misma pasion(futbol), tenemos hasta presidentes que necesitan escuchar nuestras voces, para que apoyen y promueban la idea de que unidos venceremos el falso orgullo, y solo con ello venceremos la corrupcion.
Hasta tenemos todas las cosas que necesitamos para cerrar las fronteras por 10 años, rehacer nuestros paises en uno solo, ponerles de rodillas a los paises poderosos que hoy nos abusan.
Si tan solo pudiesemos unir nuestras voces. Partamos de un foro comun y llevemos a la practica, la lucha por una Latinoamerica Unida. Quien se une?

Otrova Gomas

PS: extracto de un periodico paraguayo:
"El llamado a la unidad de los países de América Latina realizado en Guatemala por el presidente de Chile, Ricardo Lagos, para afrontar los retos de la inevitable globalización mundial e impulsar el desarrollo de sus pueblos, lamentablemente no tiene la menor posibilidad de concretarse debido a la insensatez, el viejo nacionalismo malentendido, la falta de escrúpulos y, sobre todo, la generalizada corrupción de los gobiernos del continente. Los países latinoamericanos no pueden unirse en nada, inclusive los países socios de un mercado común de más de 14 años de antigüedad, como el Mercosur. Esto se ha hecho patente en el nuevo impuesto de 9,6% que Brasil decidió aplicar arbitrariamente a todos los productos introducidos a su territorio, incluidos los que se encuentran solamente en tránsito por el país, como la soja paraguaya.
El nuevo impuesto brasileño, que ha paralizado las exportaciones paraguayas causando ingentes pérdidas al país, fue creado supuestamente para financiar los "programas sociales" del presidente Lula. ¿Pretende el Brasil financiar sus programas sociales a costa de sus socios del Mercosur? ¿Cómo proyectan forzar a un país mucho más pobre como es el Paraguay a solventar los programas sociales de un país poderoso, a expensas de la caída en su producción agrícola, la destrucción de numerosas fuentes de trabajo y el empobrecimiento de miles de personas? Ello tiene su explicación, quizás, en el hecho de que Paraguay es considerado, no un país serio, sino un nido de coimeros, piratas, falsificadores, contrabandistas y traficantes ilegales.

De todos modos, el despropósito al que le llaman pomposamente la "unión aduanera" del Mercosur no es más que una zona comercial donde los países más fuertes hacen lo que les viene en gana en perjuicio de los más débiles, estableciendo caprichosamente nuevos aranceles y trabas no arancelarias, devaluando sus monedas, etc. Está visto que gobiernos corruptos y de miserables mendicantes no pueden hacer ningún trato serio para el bien común, ni exigir a sus pares el cumplimiento de los acuerdos, porque se revuelven en las farsas de sus propios problemas, no solamente con sus ciudadanos, sino con las luchas partidarias intestinas, los favoritismos, el clientelismo político, los déficit fiscales endémicos y el enriquecimiento ilícito de sus gobernantes.

La lista de males que azotan a los países latinoamericanos no tiene fin. No obstante, el mal mayor que impide la unidad y el progreso compartido es, sin duda, la enorme corrupción. Es doloroso decirlo, pero los países del continente han sido gobernados desde tiempo inmemorial por caudillos populistas y jefes militares estatistas que han asumido el poder no pocas veces a sangre y fuego, con el fin de atracar el botín estatal, repartirse las tierras y riquezas naturales, dar empleos en la administración pública a sus partidarios y gobernar exclusivamente para beneficio de reducidos grupos de poder a costa del empobrecimiento de amplios sectores de la población.

En América Latina nunca se ha combatido con firmeza la desenfrenada corrupción, que es el verdadero cáncer que nos asuela y llena de pobres y desdichados nuestros campos y ciudades. Pero lo que es peor, la absoluta falta de condiciones morales para unir a las naciones latinoamericanas nos está llevando cada vez más rápido hacia el atraso y la pobreza generalizada. "La globalización avanza a pasos agigantados, pero las organizaciones multilaterales no avanzan al mismo paso", advirtió el presidente Lagos. ¿Qué posibilidades tienen de competir y aprovechar los beneficios de los mercados globales los países más pequeños, como Paraguay, si ni siquiera consiguen unirse para afrontar sus retos y rechazan propuestas de libre comercio con naciones ricas y poderosas como los Estados Unidos?

Es de esperar que el presidente Nicanor Duarte Frutos entienda el enorme desafío que entraña la globalización: o adoptar una política exterior sustentada en la moral, la independencia, la apertura económica y la defensa de los intereses nacionales, o hundirse en la anarquía social y la miseria a las que llevan la corrupción, el mesianismo y las ideologías radicalizadas"

DanRod78
06 Jun 2004, 02:25 PM
Primero tienen que trazar un plan
Ese plan tiene que tener los pasos que se van a tomar para hacer posible una integracion lenta pero segura.

Yo pusiera ahi cosas como:
- Cada pais debe designar un "ministro de integracion" y se todos se deben reunir cada 6 meses o lo que sea y cada vez se deben reunir mas a menudo
- Para sudamerica seria vital tener un tratado de libre comercio especificamente para sudamerica, osea unir el TLC de los andes con Mercosur (Chavez lleva varios años impulsando esto)
- Pelear la corrupcion NO DEBE ser prioridad, por que? porque siempre va a haber corrupcion.

Chamo
23 Jun 2004, 09:11 PM
Los libros de Otrova Gomas son de mis favoritos.

DanRod78
24 Jun 2004, 09:37 AM
Lean tambien sobre el congreso de Panama, segun me acuerdo Simon Bolivar llamo a los paises latinoamericanos (o sudamericanos) al congreso de Panama para hablar de como iban a unificarse.

efernandez9
12 Nov 2007, 12:07 PM
sentado al lado de otro comunista/populista y un foro internacional, el militar pierde mas imagen en un foro Internacional.

verlo aca:http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=621144

primero en la ONU insulta a al pre Bush (aunque se lo meresca) y ahora arremete contra los iberolatinos?

Visca...
12 Nov 2007, 12:18 PM
Hugo Chavez es un payaso. Con una persona como el, Latinoamerica nunca va a estar unida.

CUCo0VVEhB0

argentine soccer fan
12 Nov 2007, 03:04 PM
This is an interesting thread. There's a lot to digest from Otrova's post. Here is my opinion:

I agree that Latin American nations should put their diferences aside and try to work together. I even agree with Hugo Chavez that Latin America should form a trading block. If we can present a strong united front economically, this should enable us to negotiate from a stronger position with the large economic powers from the rest of the world. However, I see this as a temporary step. I believe that the ultimate goal should be free trade worldwide, rather than strong competing economic entities.

Where I difer strongly with Chavez is that, in my view, Latin America doesn't need social revolutions based on outdated ideas. What it needs is strong democratic institutions, and the feeling of national identity that provides citizens the basis for accepting their responsibilities to their society. I see Chavez as weakening the democratic institutions of his country, and in many ways he is emerging as a divisive rather than unifying force in Latin America.

Latin America nations need to fortify their democratic institutions, they need to educate their youth to have respect institutions and laws. They needs leaders who will cleanse the system of corruption and thus fortify it, so that citizens can be proud of their national identity. We don't need to tear down our institutions, we need to learn to appreciate and value our nations institutions in order to combat what in my view is their biggest challenge facing our nations, which is endemic corruption at all levels of society.

What demagogues like Chavez do only set the whole process backwards, and make it more difficult for our nations to develop and mature. I think there is great potential in Latin American nations if their people come together, but I think his way is not the way to unleash it.

Peñarol1891
12 Nov 2007, 07:40 PM
No metan a todos en la misma bolsa,
Latinoamerica mas dividida ya!

Danilo-11
13 Nov 2007, 07:06 PM
La unica razon por la cual esto no pasa es por corrupcion en nuestros paises.

Pero en Sudamerica tenemos muchisimo mas en comun que los paises de la Union Europea que creo que tiene como 15 idiomas oficiales.
Eso es solo los idiomas oficiales, porque Espana tiene como 5 idiomas

sysco76
18 Nov 2007, 10:50 AM
This is an interesting thread. There's a lot to digest from Otrova's post. Here is my opinion:

I agree that Latin American nations should put their diferences aside and try to work together. I even agree with Hugo Chavez that Latin America should form a trading block. If we can present a strong united front economically, this should enable us to negotiate from a stronger position with the large economic powers from the rest of the world. However, I see this as a temporary step. I believe that the ultimate goal should be free trade worldwide, rather than strong competing economic entities.

Where I difer strongly with Chavez is that, in my view, Latin America doesn't need social revolutions based on outdated ideas. What it needs is strong democratic institutions, and the feeling of national identity that provides citizens the basis for accepting their responsibilities to their society. I see Chavez as weakening the democratic institutions of his country, and in many ways he is emerging as a divisive rather than unifying force in Latin America.

Latin America nations need to fortify their democratic institutions, they need to educate their youth to have respect institutions and laws. They needs leaders who will cleanse the system of corruption and thus fortify it, so that citizens can be proud of their national identity. We don't need to tear down our institutions, we need to learn to appreciate and value our nations institutions in order to combat what in my view is their biggest challenge facing our nations, which is endemic corruption at all levels of society.

What demagogues like Chavez do only set the whole process backwards, and make it more difficult for our nations to develop and mature. I think there is great potential in Latin American nations if their people come together, but I think his way is not the way to unleash it.

Another great post, rep!

posteador
19 Nov 2007, 07:56 AM
Political unity must happen first...then we can start talking about economy...the way I see it Chile seems to be in a very different plane than countries like Venezuela or Bolivia.

During the 90's Chile had two options to face globalization...open to the world and compete head on with the world on its own...or wait, who known how many decades, for S.America united under in one big block...time has proven Chile took the right path...however the f****** in power don't want to share the success with the people. Minimum wage in Chile is a joke. You can't survive half a month with that...and whenever the peso starts getting strong vs the dollar the bastards do all they can to drop it down again, just so that they keep filling their pockets with the exports.

Chile first world in the next 20 years? Thats BS...at this rate maybe in 50....MAYBE.

Visca...
19 Nov 2007, 09:32 AM
Political unity must happen first...then we can start talking about economy...the way I see it Chile seems to be in a very different plane than countries like Venezuela or Bolivia.

During the 90's Chile had two options to face globalization...open to the world and compete head on with the world on its own...or wait, who known how many decades, for S.America united under in one big block...time has proven Chile took the right path...however the f****** in power don't want to share the success with the people. Minimum wage in Chile is a joke. You can't survive half a month with that...and whenever the peso starts getting strong vs the dollar the bastards do all they can to drop it down again, just so that they keep filling their pockets with the exports.

Chile first world in the next 20 years? Thats BS...at this rate maybe in 50....MAYBE.
I hear Chile was about to get rid of poverty alltogether pretty soon :eek: Isn't the poverty line less than 20%?

minus
19 Nov 2007, 10:15 AM
I hear Chile was about to get rid of poverty alltogether pretty soon :eek: Isn't the poverty line less than 20%?

South America
Chile 13.7 %
Colombia 14.8 %
Argentina 26.9 %
Uruguay 27.37 %
Brazil 36.3 %
Venezuela 36.8 %
Ecuador 48.3 %
Peru 51.1 %
Paraguay 60.5 %
Bolivia 63.9 %

posteador
19 Nov 2007, 10:18 AM
One thing is not to be poor according to what the stats or numbers require...but another thing is quality of life...and the stats may say you are not poor because you earn X money...but consider what you waste on an everyday basis...and you soon realize that X is just not enough.

Right now, Chile's minimum wage (if you want to leave healthily) can last for half a month...probably two weeks...maybe three.

So you either starve for the rest of the month or get 2 jobs and have a very unhealthy life. That has to change.

Visca...
19 Nov 2007, 10:22 AM
One thing is not to be poor according to what the stats or numbers require...but another thing is quality of life...and the stats may say you are not poor because you earn X money...but consider what you waste on an everyday basis...and you soon realize that X is just not enough.

Right now, Chile's minimum wage (if you want to leave healthily) can last for half a month...probably two weeks...maybe three.

So you either starve for the rest of the month or get 2 jobs and have a very unhealthy life. That has to change.
thanks for the info.

Caturro
19 Nov 2007, 10:48 AM
Nobody believes the poverty line in Chile is at 13%. That's impossible. The government is skewing the numbers big time. Officials realized the formulation is outdated (I think it's based off of 1989 income and prices) and next measurement should bring a better view of how things are like.

If I remember correctly posteador, there's a proposal to bring up the minimun wage to 225,000 pesos/month but who knows if that'll ever come to fruition...

MetroChile
19 Nov 2007, 10:49 AM
If ours is higher than 13%, then everyone else's should be higher, no?

Metro

Caturro
19 Nov 2007, 10:51 AM
If ours is higher than 13%, then everyone else's should be higher, no?

Metro

Not necessarily. Each country's formula is different because, if I remember correctly, it's based on the cost of a basic basket of goods that a family can afford with X income. Since the cost is different for each country it differs.

posteador
19 Nov 2007, 01:23 PM
If Bachelet doesn't raise the minimum wage...or does something about the ANFP's who are getting another big chunk of money and sharing very little...I will be very dissapointed with her and the Concertacion in general, who have been getting very complacent lately...I would vote for Piñera just to keep the Concertacion on their toes and give'em a wake up call.

Yañez
20 Nov 2007, 02:58 PM
One thing is to be poor and another is to live in poverty. Ill admit the things in Chile need to get a lot better income wise, but it is improving employment wise. Slowly but steadily it is getting better.

Having said that, i do think Chile is way better off than the rest. But i also think this is NO MERIT. I mean, thats like saying we are the skinniest kid in fat camp. Being way better off than Argentina, Peru , ect is nothing to be proud of. Ill feel proud and brag when we do well compared to countries like greece and belgium not our neighbors.