Why are USMNT Fans So Nasty?

[Thomas Flannigan]

About a year ago there was a newbie in the US men forum and he expressed enthusiasm to find an internet discussion group on the USMNT. Nancyb posted a warning; put on the flak jacket, or be aware of the nastiness here. Something like that. I have had some differences with nancyb but she is a good moderator and only spoke the truth here. I made a note of the newbie’s screen name. He didn’t post after a certain point.
With club teams, rancor is good for business. If people really get wound up backing one Delaware Corporation against another, you get more buzz and more ticket sales. Trash talking and fan-baiting, within some limits, can be a good thing. If people say Chicago is a cow town or blast New York, that is part of building league rivalries.
It is totally different for the USMNT. We have thousands of basketball and football teams; we have one national team. The rest of the world is crazy about men’s soccer and the USMNT is the one they love to beat up on. They don’t care if we have a great swimming team. They care about soccer.
We all know the difficulties fans of the USMNT face in seeing the team succeed and gain support, especially partisan fans who can make a difference at crucial games. We are about to start qualifying, and I don’t think we are any better off in terms of fan support than we were 4 years ago. Crowds have been small. Last night’s game wasn’t even on TV for most people.
A more serious problem is the sniping and antagonism among USMNT fans. We support the same team, but it is hard to divine that sometimes when you take note of internecine sniping among our small fan base. Some of the most passionate and helpful people who were around 4 years ago are gone. New ones have appeared, but you don’t grow a fan base that way.
I am interested in theories explaining the ugly American fan phenomenon. I have one or two of my own, but I am interested in what others have to say.

[SirFozzie]

It's because we've been attacked by all sides.

"It's not soccer.."
"You do not play the beautiful game..."
"You Americans are so arrogant.."
"You play in a weak federation.."


So, we get very defensive, and as you all know, the best defense is offense.

And FSW may not have the clearance of ESPN, but I don't think "most" people don't have it..

[Thomas Flannigan]

Interesting point, Sir Fozzie. I think your explanation points more towards antagonism between US fans and fans in other countires. That should cause a circling of the wagons here. What I am concerned about is how US fans often seem to go out their way to antagonize other fans, driving away new fans and making old ones give up.
I have particiapted in many intenet discussion groups and I have never seen one where it was advisable-even necessary-to make the admonition that nancyb made.
This is not a new phenomenon. The book "Offside" talks a bit about it in the twenties and thirties, when the ASL folded and the USMNT went into a steep decline. It is hard to put a finger on 1934 but it should be easier to figure out the present.

[Laggard]

Good question. A better question may be why are the Bigsoccer forums so nasty. I don't know that it's limited to USMNT supporters.

[Calexico77]

Maybe it's because we, as a nation and fan base, had a little too much to drink last night. Maybe we feel a little ashamed of that, and just need to be held. Doesn't anyone every think of our feelings?


Also, maybe it's not the USMNT's fans. It's just these boards? BS has some pretty mean sh-t talking people hanging around. Spouting off on all kinds of nonsense - Title IX, Chivas USA, the Native American vs. Indian debate, the Latino vs. Chicano vs. Raza debate. . . .

[cpwilson80]

Good post. US fans are like indie-rock fans:

Smarter than your average fan of either sports or music, and has a wider appreciation than average fans (think obscure bands/ability to debate the merits of who's #5 or #6 on the US keeper depth chart)

Treats soccer/music as their passion, and has a healthy distrust of those who don't do the same

Are possessive their favorite bands/players, and will defend them/him to the death

Has an unspoken part of them that kind of likes the unique nature of their fandom -- just as indie fans argue over who was a fan "before they got big", some soccer fans like the inane media editorials or ranting against SportsCenter

[RevPOWA]

If anyone saw the Revolution/Sporting "friendly"...it may help provide some answers to your question.

It was a typical Eurosnob vs American clash. These guys came in with the mentality of...stupid incompetent Americans who suck ass at soccer. They basically felt that it was still 1970, amazingly even after they got their asses beat in WC2002.

So they come in expecting to "cruise" by the Revs...and realize that its not so easy. Frustrations then proceed to increase substantially....as they go on to commit 3 red card fouls, basically assaulting (Kamler's teeth knocked out)the Revolution players for the rest of the match.

We dont get any respect from foreigners, hence our short fuses and tendency to retaliate with vicious opinions/statements.

[Thomas Flannigan]

Some good posts here, and the analogy with ardent fans of rock groups is not so far off.
Concerning the behavior of Sporting Lisbon's supporters, I think hatred between fans of different nations is par for the course. It can be worse is some times and places but it part of soccer madness on a global scale.
What I mean is antagonism AMONG US fans, not BETWEEN US fans and fans from other countries. Antagonism between fan groups of different nations can get out of hand but up to a certain point, it is good for business. Internecine warring and sniping among US Fans hurts the cause and hurts our chances of succeeding.

[monster]

About a year ago there was a newbie in the US men forum and he expressed enthusiasm to find an internet discussion group on the USMNT. Nancyb posted a warning; put on the flak jacket, or be aware of the nastiness here. Something like that. I have had some differences with nancyb but she is a good moderator and only spoke the truth here. I made a note of the newbie’s screen name. He didn’t post after a certain point.
With club teams, rancor is good for business. If people really get wound up backing one Delaware Corporation against another, you get more buzz and more ticket sales. Trash talking and fan-baiting, within some limits, can be a good thing. If people say Chicago is a cow town or blast New York, that is part of building league rivalries.
It is totally different for the USMNT. We have thousands of basketball and football teams; we have one national team. The rest of the world is crazy about men’s soccer and the USMNT is the one they love to beat up on. They don’t care if we have a great swimming team. They care about soccer.
We all know the difficulties fans of the USMNT face in seeing the team succeed and gain support, especially partisan fans who can make a difference at crucial games. We are about to start qualifying, and I don’t think we are any better off in terms of fan support than we were 4 years ago. Crowds have been small. Last night’s game wasn’t even on TV for most people.
A more serious problem is the sniping and antagonism among USMNT fans. We support the same team, but it is hard to divine that sometimes when you take note of internecine sniping among our small fan base. Some of the most passionate and helpful people who were around 4 years ago are gone. New ones have appeared, but you don’t grow a fan base that way.
I am interested in theories explaining the ugly American fan phenomenon. I have one or two of my own, but I am interested in what others have to say.
Did you come to this ephiphany before or after you spent the better part of the US-Germany game in Korea berating your fellow fans for not singing and cheering to your liking?

Hypocrite.

[Bruce S]

here is the real answer: it isn't especially nasty here, compared with other boards. I post on several boards, including Man U's .It is much worse at all of these other boards.People feel disinhibited when they can post anonymously.It is not pretty, but this is NOT just a BS phenomenon, but human nature.

[Thomas Flannigan]

I hope people will ignore hostile Moderators and stick to this discussion, if they are interested in it. The USMNT is not growing its fan base, especially passionate fans, while we can see that the Catrachos, Guanacos seem to be drawing ever larger and noisier fan bases for games on US soil. I never thought that a USMNT game at Foxboro would draw so many fans for Honduras and El Salvador, but they have. Meanwhile, the passionate US fans seem to be stuck on zero in terms of an increase in numbers.
I know of several fans who were very active in the last qualifier series who are finished with active support, at least in part because of the hostillity and negativity. Sure, they will watch the games on TV, but it would be better if they continued to stay involved.
You don't really see this phenomenon with US fans in other sports. Why is that?

[SirFozzie]

Tom: then you missed the Gold Cup games at Gilette, the Honduras game at RFK, etcetera etcetera..

Since America is such a hodge podge of ethnicities and backgrounds and most of these groups settle together (not an enclave so to speak, but there are Portugese neighborhoods and Spanish and etc..)

These games are the biggest chance for fans to "connect" with their home base. For example, when Sporting came for their tour, at the game at Gilette, whole neighborhoods seemed to come. I mean, how often would you get to see YOUR countrymen/favorite team come to the US and play a game? Not far off from "Once in a lifetime.."

Combine that with the fact that soccer is a small (but growing fast) sport at the adult level in the USA...

[TheWakeUpBomb]

A more serious problem is the sniping and antagonism among USMNT fans.In fact, a more serious problem is people taking things written by total strangers on a message board waaaaay too seriously and waaay too personally. It's called perspective, people.

[Blong]

Could it be that some people are too damn sensitive, and take disagreements as personal attacks by "big meanies"? Some individuals always seem to become victims of something-or-other. It's no coincidence.

People argue on message boards. Get used to it.

[Casper]

People argue on message boards. Get used to it.

No they don't. And I won't.

And you suck.

[geordienation]

Oh, man, this thread is gonna be comedy gold.

[Blong]

No they don't. And I won't.

And you suck.


I'm telling!!!

[JBohland]

Good post. US fans are like indie-rock fans:

Smarter than your average fan of either sports or music, and has a wider appreciation than average fans (think obscure bands/ability to debate the merits of who's #5 or #6 on the US keeper depth chart)

Treats soccer/music as their passion, and has a healthy distrust of those who don't do the same

Are possessive their favorite bands/players, and will defend them/him to the death

Has an unspoken part of them that kind of likes the unique nature of their fandom -- just as indie fans argue over who was a fan "before they got big", some soccer fans like the inane media editorials or ranting against SportsCenter

I absolutely love this post. As an indie rock snob and a massive soccer fan, I could not agree more. You could add in indie films to this mix as well.

[Lanky134]

I'm telling!!!

Don't make me turn this thread around!

[JBohland]

I hope people will ignore hostile Moderators and stick to this discussion, if they are interested in it. The USMNT is not growing its fan base, especially passionate fans, while we can see that the Catrachos, Guanacos seem to be drawing ever larger and noisier fan bases for games on US soil. I never thought that a USMNT game at Foxboro would draw so many fans for Honduras and El Salvador, but they have. Meanwhile, the passionate US fans seem to be stuck on zero in terms of an increase in numbers.
I know of several fans who were very active in the last qualifier series who are finished with active support, at least in part because of the hostillity and negativity. Sure, they will watch the games on TV, but it would be better if they continued to stay involved.
You don't really see this phenomenon with US fans in other sports. Why is that?

I blame Julie Foudy and Title IX.