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View Full Version : Wenger's aim and bad starts...


Cannon
14 Aug 2009, 09:39 PM
So Arsenal.com has a new article (http://www.arsenal.com/match-menu/3149186/first-team/everton-v-arsenal?tab=preview) with some interesting quotes from Wenger:
The opponents - Manchester United, Liverpool and Chelsea - you do not know how strong they will be. But, in the Premier League, the target is to always be over 82 points if you want to win the title. In a League of this quality you need to win at least 25 games.

I look at last year’s season as a product of bad circumstances. We had a bad start and that is why maybe we feel a little bit under pressure to start well this time because we know that last year after 14 games we had lost five and that was too many
Hmm...I have a problem with these quotes. First 82 points (or 83 points since he says "over 82") is hardly a guarantee of winning the Prem. Lets look at past seasons. In 08/09, ManU won with 90 while Chelsea was third with 83. In 07/08, ManU won it with 87 and Arsenal finished third with 83 points. In 06/07, ManU got the title with 89 and Chelsea in second had 83 points. In 05/06, Chelsea won the Prem with 91, ManU had 83 for second, and Liverpool got third with 82 points. The season before that Chelsea got the title with 95 and Arsenal were second with 83 points. In the invincibles season, Arsenal took 90 and Chelsea in second only had 79 points. Finally in 02/03 we see the last time 83 points won the Prem. It took 87 in 01/02, 80 in 00/01, 91 in 99/00, and before that the winners each season had high 70s or low 80s until you get to Blackburn's win with 89 points in 94/95.

My point is that the aim to get to 82 or 83 points is unlikely to produce a title unless the Prem title race is going to be much more like it was back in the 90s and the early part of this decade. It was true then that around 25 wins put you in the title hunt but the number of late has been around 28 wins. No club has won the title with more than 5 losses since the 00/01 season. That makes the second part of the quote interesting.

Wenger correctly pointed out that the five losses by the end of November that the club had last season made it all but impossible for them to win the Prem. I think it is quite possible that we'll see 3 losses (and another draw/loss) by the end of September so talking about how we'll avoid a bad start this season seems more than a bit hopeful. After 14 games last season Arsenal had 23 points and had managed 12 by the end of September. This season they'd have 25 points (assuming we win in the two matches with new clubs to the Prem) after 14 games and just 8 by the end of September if we match last season's performance in the corresponding fixtures. I predict that Arsenal will actually have just 7 by the end of September and 24 points after fourteen matches. In other words, we're likely to have no better a start this season than last and in fact the first two months look more difficult.

My problem with Wenger's quote is that if he is telling the truth than he is aiming too low to have a realistic chance to win the Prem and is counting on an unlikely better start to the season. What happens when the start is worse than he expects and the club gets its fourth loss by the end of November?

Silva 5
14 Aug 2009, 10:23 PM
So Arsenal.com has a new article (http://www.arsenal.com/match-menu/3149186/first-team/everton-v-arsenal?tab=preview) with some interesting quotes from Wenger:

Hmm...I have a problem with these quotes. First 82 points (or 83 points since he says "over 82") is hardly a guarantee of winning the Prem. Lets look at past seasons. In 08/09, ManU won with 90 while Chelsea was third with 83. In 07/08, ManU won it with 87 and Arsenal finished third with 83 points. In 06/07, ManU got the title with 89 and Chelsea in second had 83 points. In 05/06, Chelsea won the Prem with 91, ManU had 83 for second, and Liverpool got third with 82 points. The season before that Chelsea got the title with 95 and Arsenal were second with 83 points. In the invincibles season, Arsenal took 90 and Chelsea in second only had 79 points. Finally in 02/03 we see the last time 83 points won the Prem. It took 87 in 01/02, 80 in 00/01, 91 in 99/00, and before that the winners each season had high 70s or low 80s until you get to Blackburn's win with 89 points in 94/95.

you don't look at what the first place team finished at, you look at the second place team.

In 05/06 Chelsea may have finished with 91, but it only took 83-84 points to win it, depending on tie breakers.

In 06/07 Man Utd finished with 89, but it only took 83-84 points again...

I think you're making a lot more out of this than is necessary. I think you can excuse Wenger for not getting the numbers right...I knew what he meant.

antifan
14 Aug 2009, 11:54 PM
"the target is to always be over 82 points if you want to win the title. In a League of this quality you need to win at least 25 games.


Note Wenger's use of the words "over" and "at least".

biggonez
15 Aug 2009, 12:42 AM
My problem with Wenger's quote is that if he is telling the truth than he is aiming too low to have a realistic chance to win the Prem and is counting on an unlikely better start to the season. What happens when the start is worse than he expects and the club gets its fourth loss by the end of November?

The simple answer to your question is, "Then we don't win the league." I wouldn't be that upset, although I know alot wrongfully be calling for his head. But really, do you think this man, whose job it is to win, is aiming, before the season even starts, to not win?

I also think that by using those numbers he is factoring in a more competitive league. The last several years you had 4 teams winning virtually every game.

thebigman
15 Aug 2009, 07:06 AM
i think wengers playing it right and under playing expectations

i fully expect 'over performance' this year

TheImposter
15 Aug 2009, 07:57 AM
It sounds to me like he's stating the minimum target it would take to win the league, and leaving it implicit that depending on other competitive factors those totals might or might not be sufficient. Clear enough.

Cannon
15 Aug 2009, 09:01 AM
"the target is to always be over 82 points if you want to win the title. In a League of this quality you need to win at least 25 games.
Note Wenger's use of the words "over" and "at least".
In that case, he might as well have said 80 or 78 points and 22 games. My point is he picked those particular numbers for a reason. I think he really believes that the no team will score in the high 80s/low 90s this season and that a low 80s will be competitive. I see little to suggest that there has been the type of change in the top three needed for that prediction to come true.

I also note that nobody has had much to say about the "bad start" stuff. I wonder why? ;) I'll leave it now since I'm too excited about the start of the Prem to continue to fret over the problems coming down the pipe. I'm sure we can come back to this in a month or two and see what became of his reasoning.

Val1
15 Aug 2009, 09:20 AM
you don't look at what the first place team finished at, you look at the second place team.

In 05/06 Chelsea may have finished with 91, but it only took 83-84 points to win it, depending on tie breakers.

In 06/07 Man Utd finished with 89, but it only took 83-84 points again...

I think you're making a lot more out of this than is necessary. I think you can excuse Wenger for not getting the numbers right...I knew what he meant.
I like your take on the numbers, but having a target of what the second place finisher needs/gets is a formula for mediocrity.

Erdles
15 Aug 2009, 09:43 AM
We haven't got 25 wins in a season since 2004-05, so aiming to get over that is a step forward in my opinion. Remember, we're a side that's finished 4th, 4th, 3rd, 4th in the last 4 years; so setting realistic targets make sense.

Considering how competitive the league'll be this season, I would be surprised if the champions had over 87 points.

I think Wenger's got the right idea about what we should be aiming for.