Disturbing Feature of the Team

[JoeW]

I hate losing to LA and Metros more than any other teams in MLS. But my following analysis isn't b/c losses were against those teams.

In both matches, we had periods where we dominated play. Yes, we also didn't finish (that has been an issue with this side and one we pretty much expected before the season started).

But both of those matches (2nd LA match and Metros matches) involved 2 relatively brief periods where the team basically allowed the opposition to rapidly run up quick scores. I know all the goals weren't the same, Herzog is a veteran, Metros have some offensive talent...yada, yada. But that still is not excuse for giving up 3 goals in 9 minutes (against LA) and 3 goals in 18 minutes (against Metros).

It's as if the team mentally goes to sleep and loses the ability to adjust--to go "hey--we got a problem here, just gave up a goal, we've got to shut this down." As others have pointed out, an aging Herzog with little pace was given entirely too much space to operate in.

I don't think this is just about 1 player (I too agree with Sandon that it isn't Carroll's fault for the scores). But it's rare to see ANY team give up so many goals so quickly. To see this team do it twice so early in the season (on what is otherwise a decent defensive team) makes we wonder what it is about how this side plays, their ability to read and adjust, perhaps their dependence on the coach to give direction (which makes them vulnerable to teams who exploit a mistake/weakness) or what? Yes, Rimando was weak on the first 2 goals, Prideaux and Petke lack pace, we missed Nelsen. But still, that would account for looking sloppy back there or looking bad the entire match. Neither was was the case in either match. Metros was more of a team let down, LA was a case of allowing Herzog a chance to connect with pacey players.

Any theories on this?

[griffin1108]

My guesses --

The defense: who on this team would you pick besides Nelson? Namoff is hard working and serviceable. Petke is slow and sometimes ball watches. Prideaux is the second coming of Ivanov. Stokes -- just avert your eyes, children under the age of 18 shouldn't be exposed to something like that.

The midfield: the supposed strength. Convey, Olsen, Kovalenko, Stewart are all good players. However, Carroll is the d-mid and link to to the offense. I think he's improved since opening day and will get even better. However, he effectively is a rookie and we must suffer his growing pains. Gros shows flashes and will run all night, but again, he's a rookie.

The forwards: Moreno is a rehab project who still has a great deal of class, a limited fuel tank and has lost a step. Cerritos is Moreno lite. Esky will run all day, but to what effect? Adu is Carroll squared, but with a tremendous upside.

The goalkeepers: Rimando never was my favorite and I think he has not recovered fully from his injury. Warren is like Carroll -- a work in progress.

The wild cards are Q1, Q2 and Martins. When and if they recover from injuries they will add depth and one of the forward positions will be theirs if they earn it.

The summary: The goalkeeping was a question going into the season and remains such. The defense was thin, and the LA game exposed every weakness collectively owned by Petke, Prideaux and Namoff. The midfield relies on two rookies at this point, Carroll and Gros. The forwards are anemic, which again was something everyone knew at the beginning.

When Nelson, Convey and Olsen can play, we are dangerous in midfield and OK in the back. Without them, we are one iceberg away from a shipwreck (see Wednesday night).

[DutchFootballRulez]

I think its a confidence issue. I think its affecting every part of the team. Give up goals, or can't finish and you start to get down. Certain players like Dema, Etch, Adu, Gros, Esky, and probably Earnie too, and maybe Moreno as well, they seem to never lose hope.

Esky, Adu and Gros have the blessing of youth naivete. But the other guys I don't know. And maybe its the coaching staff also, maybe they do not put across a never-say-die attitude, but someone has got to light a fire in the club all this Adu crap whether he plays or doesn't what happens when he gets the ball, competition for spots. All of this creates a certain "Fear of Failure" attitude. We play too conservatively, possession football is great..but G-ddammit.. we need goals En masse.

We need to play like we saw LA and the Metros do to us. It only takes one or two passes to score a goal. One turnover. Too much complication in moves..just take the ball to the box, and then get back on D and take the ball back.

Chicago, LA, and the Metros basically ripped us apart w/ only a few passes or moves. We do all this work in possession and then fall apart. Everybody on the club needs to reasses WTF is happening? Nowak wants good possession, ok..we have that and still lose. Maybe we should provide more sweeping counterattacks, and depend on our forwards and wingers to get shots on goal. Let them have freedom to take cracks and shake up the keeper. Something. The match after the Crapids the Season will be 1/3 over. The time for figuring the identity of this team is fading.

We still play like an unimaginitive Hudson-coached club, I realize Convey was out as was Olsen and Nelsen, but Cerritos and Adu's goals are exactly what we need. Someone to put the team on their shoulders and say "We will win because I will make it so"

[garbaggio]

I don't agree with most of DFRulez' post. This goes mainly for last night's game (I'd have to rewatch the Mutts game to see if it applied there).

Last night I think we were too aggressive after we gave up the initial goal on Rimando's blunder. On both the 2nd and 3rd goals you can fault some of DC's players: Petke and Rimando on #2 and Prideaux on #3. But we had almost the whole team pushing up trying to quickly get a score of our own and if either Petke or Prideaux had more help in the back the goals may very well have been averted.

I don't think the team lost it's confidence (well, maybe they did after #3) but they did get overanxious to score and left the back quite weak and vulnerable. If cooler heads had prevailed we would have realized we still had more than half a game of soccer in which to equalize. By recklessly pushing forward we dug ourselves too deep of a hole to climb out of, even with a pretty good showing in the 2nd half.

[Jose L. Couso]

I don't think the team lost it's confidence (well, maybe they did after #3) but they did get overanxious to score and left the back quite weak and vulnerable. If cooler heads had prevailed we would have realized we still had more than half a game of soccer in which to equalize. By recklessly pushing forward we dug ourselves too deep of a hole to climb out of, even with a pretty good showing in the 2nd half.
I agree.

[Pints]

DFR and Garbaggio I think you both make good points. We do lose some confidence, or rather focus. We don't jump up and say "Oh ******** we need to pull it together!" Both matches that happened. As well garbaggio, after that first goal, our back line was IMHO) way too far up. every pass that went to Herzog, there was 20-30 yards of empty pitch between hima nd the goal, and our guys tried as they did couldn't catch up. In the SJ match we did keep our focus and worked to get it back to a draw, but we could have done more in that match too. I guess it's easy to decide what is best when you are not on the pitch you are drinking in the stands but from what i see it seems we get pissed at ourselves rather than pissed at the opponents.

Luckily Cerritos got his goal when he did because when we came back out we played a little better after the half but that was also probably due some serious reaming going on in the locker room.

[Mason16]

There is leadership vacuum on the field that Stewart alone cannot fill. Leaders will help settle the team down after giving up a bad goal and get the team back on track. This is my hunch for the Galaxy debacle although I think we showed good composure to come back from being down 4 goals. Cerritos' strike before the half helped alot too. I don't remember the details of the Mutts game so it may not be applicable there.

[revelation]

As a couple of others have said before me, the LA game was all about pushing up too much. In particular, Gros and Stewart getting cut out and overtaken in midfield allowing an odd-man rush at our undermanned defense. With 3 plus Carroll in the back, the outside mids have to come back and defend - on every LA goal after the first, the Gals by-passed the midfield to threaten quickly. Stewart lost out to Herzog on the third goal and Gros was no where to be seen on any of them.

I think the team would benefit from a mentality of holding possession right after an opposition goal rather than pushing for the equalizer. (Of course I hate to see that from the stands but I can live with it rather than 3 friggen quick goals because our team is out of position...) :(

[Tweaked]

All I have to say is I watched a tape of the game last night and Stokes can't string a pass together to save his life. He easily had 6 or 7 passes that went directly to an LA player. and not even a difficult pass, just kicked it directly to an LA player.

[Pints]

All I have to say is I watched a tape of the game last night and Stokes can't string a pass together to save his life. He easily had 6 or 7 passes that went directly to an LA player. and not even a difficult pass, just kicked it directly to an LA player.

...regardless. He didn't lose the match for DC. It wasn't his fault our team played like sh!t. It wasn't his fault those four goals happened. It isn't his fault this team loses focus everytime another team scores on us. He was subbed in at a perfect time. We were well on our way to losing and he needs time just like every other person on the team needs time. If we keep getting our defenders hurt, we will have no choice but to start him and I am sure no one here or Nowak wants that. So give him time to work when it is not going to swing the balance of the match. Whether or not he pulls it together is up to him. Whether or not he is traded for someone better is not. Pull off the starteers in thos ematches where we are not goign to win based on their position and rest them for the next match two days away. People are displacing their anger. So what if Stokes sucked....or sucks. Everyone on this team has been taking a dip in the Suck Pool. And some of them ARE responsible for the losses.

[BudWiser]

...regardless. He didn't lose the match for DC. It wasn't his fault our team played like sh!t. It wasn't his fault those four goals happened. It isn't his fault this team loses focus everytime another team scores on us....People are displacing their anger. So what if Stokes sucked....or sucks. Everyone on this team has been taking a dip in the Suck Pool. And some of them ARE responsible for the losses.

Exactly. After each loss it's like we look for a scapegoat. Last game it was Rimando-not one of those goals couldn't have been prevented by good defense. The first goal if the players would have guarded Moreno, no goal. The second goal the LA guy was on a breakaway. The third and fourth goal, acres of space. It's a TEAM loss-we lose because as a TEAM we didn't get the job done. That said sure Rimando could have played better-but so could a bunch of other guys.

The most disturbing feature of the team is we're not a very good team. Maybe someday, but not now. We're bad enough to the point where we may not make the playoffs.

As for why bunches of goals get scored, it's a multitude of factors. 3-man backline, midfield not getting back, loss of confidence, getting discouraged after many attempts at goal, etc.......

[fatbastard]

holy crap people, I don't know what's worse, the seeming over-criticism of Stokes or the sillier arguments over not criticizing him at all. No one said it was his fault we lost, just that he played like old people ********. Poorly, sloppily, and/or inconsistantly. :)

With Jaime in MF, and Ben not, our midfield plays too far up leaving a huge gap exposing our slow-ass backline. Or the gap has always been there and LA was the first team to find it.

Who had Bud losing all faith in the team by week 8 in the pool? ;)

[Pints]

[QUOTE=fatbastard]holy crap people, I don't know what's worse, the seeming over-criticism of Stokes or the sillier arguments over not criticizing him at all. No one said it was his fault we lost, just that he played like old people ********. ..QUOTE]

Understood but this thread was started to discuss what someone felt was the reason we were losing and I was simply reacting to another person posting about Stokes terrible play.
posted by tweaked: All I have to say is I watched a tape of the game last night and Stokes can't string a pass together to save his life. He easily had 6 or 7 passes that went directly to an LA player. and not even a difficult pass, just kicked it directly to an LA player.

I simply do not believe it was any one persons fault. Surely Stokes doesn't deserve any sort of commending but as far as subbing him in. the time in which he came in was probably best. Made more sense than subbing him in during the first match against the Smurfs.

[Pints]

Also....

No one said it was his fault we lost, just that he played like old people ********. Poorly, sloppily, and/or inconsistantly.


This is probably the funniest thing I have heard on this board, aside from Asshat.

With Jaime in MF, and Ben not, our midfield plays too far up leaving a huge gap exposing our slow-ass backline. Or the gap has always been there and LA was the first team to find it.

I couldn't agree with you more. If Rimando was a retard Wed night this was the mother who drank too much during the pregnancy.

[JRHokie]

My guesses --

The defense: who on this team would you pick besides Nelson? Namoff is hard working and serviceable. Petke is slow and sometimes ball watches. Prideaux is the second coming of Ivanov. Stokes -- just avert your eyes, children under the age of 18 shouldn't be exposed to something like that.


I think it's easy to say that now about the defense but these are the same guys that were very solid last year as a unit. Why the difference this year? Are these guys just not athletic enough to cover one-third more ground? Should the D-mids bear as much responsibility as the defenders?

Were all seven of the LA/NY goals given up without Nelson??? That is did NY score before Nellie went down in Apr 17 game?

[Tweaked]

Hey, I never once claimed Stokes was the reason we lost the game...just observing that he has a terrible time making passes out of the back field. Open and shut case.