Physical play and the small player

[jkritchey]

Hope I can clarify my question accurately:

Is it appropriate for a referee to have a different standard for making a call for physical play if the victim of the push is smaller? Example: Ref A is CR in a game Tuesday night, between two equal teams. It gets physical, but a hard push in the back does not result in any advantage and the physical play goes both ways. Fewer fouls are called.

Friday nite, same CR does a game between a large physical team and smaller team. The larger team gains significant advantage from the type of play that is 'routine' in Tuesday's game. Examples include winning 50-50 headers, etc.

I bring this up as my son's high school team is filled with short, smallish underclassmen who are getting pounded by larger teams, who while not playing 'dirty' have gained significant advantage with pushes to the back that may not affect a larger player, but do affect our smaller players. (Sorry for the long sentence structure).

Summary: Is a push a push regardless of result? Or does the result effect the call?

[Tame Lion]

A push is a push is a foul, period. It is within the power of the referee to decide that the foul was trifling, i.e., had little or no effect on play, and "ignore" it. If the victim of the foul lost his fair chance to play the ball, it is not trifling. If the culprit of the foul gained an unfair advantage, it is not trifling. If the referee's control of the match is threatened, it should not be considered trifling.

The phrase "size of player" does not appear in the above paragraph. But it is not hard to imagine how it could be a factor.

Only a foolish referee would call such pushes solely against the larger team because his control will be threatened.

[IASocFan]

If a player has one or two hands on the back of an opponent, the easiest (but not only way) to judge its effect is by observing the response of the player being affected. If the player suddenly changes position by a couple of feet, you can suspect that a foul should be called. If the affected player continues to control the ball or proceed in his original direction, the hands may just be used for balance or to keep track of his opponent - no foul.

[Ref Flunkie]

I think where this becomes even harder for the referee is when a fair shoulder to shoulder charge between a large and small player occurs. Since it takes much less force to shoulder the smaller player off the ball, the referee must think much harder if the charge is fair or with excessive force (foul). I don't think a player has time to think "gee this player is smaller than me, I better reduce the force I use for this shoulder charge". When it comes to pushes, as has been said, if the push does not effect play it will not be called.

[jkritchey]

Thank you for your prompt responses. It has been a frustrating season for our brand new high school team with no senior class for this reason. (also because my son is a freshmen goal keeper with no back up). The quality of the referees has been spotty at best, and we continually find our selves getting a real pounding from the larger more experienced squads. Usually by the time the CR has realized the consistency of the advantage gained by holding his whistle, we're down a number of goals and playing in an uninspired fashion.

Hopefully a season like this builds character....

[NHRef]

I have two comments to add:

1) ANY push to the back, and I am calling it. The only fair/legal challenge with contact is shoulder to shoulder. To much can happen with a push/challenge to the spine area or from behind in general.

2) I personally have problems reffing when one team is noticeably smaller than the other. I go in with a "watch the little ones" attitude so that they don't get hurt. I totally lost control of a game once when it turned out the little ones where the agressors and initiating the contact/pushes, the effect was not as obvious due to size difference, but the larger players noticed they were being pushed pretty good.

One of the primary jobs is to protect the safety of the players. I have no issue with a "let them play" attitude as long as its consistent and fair and not dangerous. Especially as the players get older. I will hold the whistle much more often in an older U15+ game than in a U10/11/12 game.

[nsa]

Instructions for Referees and Resolutions Affecting Team Coaches and Players
Regional and National Cup Competitions and Tournaments (http://www.massref.net/ussf0404.htm)

Some good stuff in there regarding fair and foul challenges.
Soccer is a tough, combative sport. The contest to gain possession of the ball should nonetheless be fair and gentlemanly. Any actions meeting these criteria, even when vigorous, must be allowed by the referee.

The small player can create match control problems when he repeatedly throws himself at a larger opposing player, then bounces off and falls to the ground (usually with a plaintive wail and dagger-eyes towards the referee). The foul, if any, is against the smaller player. Applying advantage is usually the best option, however the little gnat (no relation :) ) can become annoying to the bigger player resulting in a retaliatory swat. Be sure to address this ploy by the little player early so that you don't have to card the big guy later.

[ProfZodiac]

I see this kind of situation every week, particularly with the U-14 age groups. It's not so much one team to another, it's more along the lines of a third of the players have grown underarm hair, and the other two-thirds remain smooth as the day they were born. I do my best to call consistently regardless of the players' size, but I've seen that in many cases, the bigger player is more than aware of the fact that they outweigh their opponent by fifty pounds. I think I'm more apt to pull a yellow card when a big player flattens a small player as opposed to another big player. I know I probably shouldn't, but I feel I have a duty to protect those whose voices haven't cracked yet.

[nsa]

I was watching a G13 State Cup match tonight (no relation to anybody on either team). A girl about 5' 7" raced with a speedy 4' 11.5" player to the ball. The bigger player had the angle to start with so the little kid tries to run past and sticks her foot in to cross the ball. The momentum and awkward play send her head over heels.

I'm thinking, "brave kid, but no foul".

The ref tweets loudly and strolls up (from 45 yds. away :( ) to pull out his yellow card for the bigger player.

Parents go nuts and I bit a hole in my tongue keeping silent.

[nsa]

... I know I probably shouldn't, but I feel I have a duty to protect those whose voices haven't cracked yet.
Why? If they are stupid enough to step off the curb in front of a semi, then let them get a few tire tracks.

Call the fouls, but don't get suckered by the little guy trying to play you.

[jkc313]

Hope I can clarify my question accurately:

Is it appropriate for a referee to have a different standard for making a call for physical play if the victim of the push is smaller? Example: Ref A is CR in a game Tuesday night, between two equal teams. It gets physical, but a hard push in the back does not result in any advantage and the physical play goes both ways. Fewer fouls are called.

Friday nite, same CR does a game between a large physical team and smaller team. The larger team gains significant advantage from the type of play that is 'routine' in Tuesday's game. Examples include winning 50-50 headers, etc.

I bring this up as my son's high school team is filled with short, smallish underclassmen who are getting pounded by larger teams, who while not playing 'dirty' have gained significant advantage with pushes to the back that may not affect a larger player, but do affect our smaller players. (Sorry for the long sentence structure).

Summary: Is a push a push regardless of result? Or does the result effect the call?

A push in the back is always a foul. A shoulder to shoulder charge may be deemed careless,reckless or with excessive force. WHen you have different sized players you cannot allow the larger players to just run over the smaller ones at will. At higher levels of play, you have to make sure the smaller players aren't taking a dive on a fair charge from a larger opponent. That can get tricky. What's not tricky is when a player literally runs over another and then screams "it was shoulder to shoulder!"

[But Referee]

[QUOTE=nsa]A girl about 5' 7" raced with a speedy 4' 11.5" player to the ball.
QUOTE]

Not 4' 11", not quite 5'. Akin to drinking a quart of water after the game as opposed to a liter (32 ounces vs. 33.8 ounces)?

[nsa]

Not 4' 11", not quite 5'. Akin to drinking a quart of water after the game as opposed to a liter (32 ounces vs. 33.8 ounces)?An in-joke. As a player my daughter was 5' 0.5" and very emphatic about that extra half inch. :)

[kevbrunton]

A push in the back is always a foul.
Two different people made this statement - and I have a small problem with a component of this. I have a bit of a problem with the "in the back" part.

A push is a foul, period, but as outlined by Tame Lion above, it may not always be called.

However, the more common form of physical contact between two players is the charge (meaning with the body) rather than the push (meaning with the hands). Charging is a legal challenge for the ball and it is generally considered that you can't challenge for a ball from behind.

However, there is one situation where a charge from behind is legal -- when a player is shielding a ball, he is subject to a fair charge from behind -- with the caveat that comes with ALL charges, as long as it is not done in a careless or reckless manner or done with excessive force.

So this is the problem with a blanket statement like "a push in the back or a charge from behind is always going to be a foul in my book" -- because there are times when it is perfectly legal.

As far as the original question goes, again, I would like to make a distinction between a push and a charge. As Tame Lion explained very well, a push becomes a foul when it affects the play or outcome. A push against a small player that affects the play gets called when an equal push against a larger player that doesn't affect play stays within the realm of trivial and doesn't get called.

However, I don't think the same statement can be made about a charge -- which is a fair play for the ball. If a larger player makes a fair charge for the ball and is able to dispossess the smaller player simply because of the size involved, it does not constitute a foul. It has to do with player strength which is as much a component of the game as player speed. If you have two players who are exactly equal size but one is much stronger, they are going to win a lot more balls than the weaker player. You can't penalize the stronger player because the weaker player hasn't put as much work into his/her game to gain that strength on the ball. Similarly, you can't penalize the larger player just because the smaller player is physically unable to compete. It is an athletic contest and the more skillful, stronger, faster players should succeed over smaller, weaker, slower players.

As someone on these board has put it so well, it is not our job as referee to make sure it is a fair result, but only to make sure that the result is obtained fairly.

[JohnR]

However, there is one situation where a charge from behind is legal -- when a player is shielding a ball, he is subject to a fair charge from behind -- with the caveat that comes with ALL charges, as long as it is not done in a careless or reckless manner or done with excessive force.


I'm glad that you wrote this sentence, since this is a subject that I have never understood.

What is a fair charge from behind? I am confused, since I think of a fair charge as being one that attempts to play the ball, and it is pretty difficult to play the ball when standing directly behind somebody. Indeed, I would say that most defenders do not even attempt to play the ball from this position; rather, they merely lean on the attacker, with the aim being to hamper the attacker's attempts at playing the ball.

[JohnR]

I was watching a G13 State Cup match tonight (no relation to anybody on either team). A girl about 5' 7" raced with a speedy 4' 11.5" player to the ball. The bigger player had the angle to start with so the little kid tries to run past and sticks her foot in to cross the ball. The momentum and awkward play send her head over heels.

I'm thinking, "brave kid, but no foul".

The ref tweets loudly and strolls up (from 45 yds. away :( ) to pull out his yellow card for the bigger player.

Parents go nuts and I bit a hole in my tongue keeping silent.

Yup. Damn midgets.

I'd whine more, except my big brute son who is constantly getting whistled for fairly winning 50/50 balls gets his revenve against older kids. He falls down somewhat easily from a 50/50 challenge, and to his pleasure the old kids are often called for the foul. He feels a bit sheepish about the whole thing but also feels sophisticated, in that he too has learned how to play the refs.

[love to play]

So kevnburton - Here is a question for you.. You make a distinction between a push and charge. That distinction is fair and I accept it as i try to make the same distinction myself. My question is in regards to what we call a charge. When do you see the charge as illegal? When it effects the outcome of the play. I guess I am getting at is if a player comes barreling from say 8 or 10 yards away and with arms at side charges the player shoulder to shoulder at full on speed do you consider this a fair charge?
I guess I am having trouble sometimes establishing the difference there especially at the older ages and adults. I try to take into consideration was the player in control of themselves or were they out of control and therefore careless. Maybe I have just answered my own question there but if you have some further insight I would be interested to hear.

[kevbrunton]

So kevnburton - Here is a question for you.. You make a distinction between a push and charge. That distinction is fair and I accept it as i try to make the same distinction myself. My question is in regards to what we call a charge. When do you see the charge as illegal? When it effects the outcome of the play. I guess I am getting at is if a player comes barreling from say 8 or 10 yards away and with arms at side charges the player shoulder to shoulder at full on speed do you consider this a fair charge?
I guess I am having trouble sometimes establishing the difference there especially at the older ages and adults. I try to take into consideration was the player in control of themselves or were they out of control and therefore careless. Maybe I have just answered my own question there but if you have some further insight I would be interested to hear.
You really have just answered your own question there.

Unlike the push, in the case of the charge, it is not a matter of whether it affects the outcome of the play. Because a fair and successful charge will affect the outcome of the play because the player will succeed in winning the ball. It is one of those things that has to be judged completely within the context of the game based upon age, experience and level of play.

What may be a fair charge in college age men would be completely unfair for a U14 youth game. In general, if it looks like they are just barrelling in out of control, then they probably are.

Keep in mind that the older ages of higher level play do get very physical and you shouldn't try to whistle that out of the game. But in the recreational areas and in the adult O-x ages where it's played for the fun rather than for the result, keep it safe. If you are struggle with what level of physical play to allow, go watch some games in that league when an experienced or respected referee is working the center and guage what level he/she allows.

[kevbrunton]

I'm glad that you wrote this sentence, since this is a subject that I have never understood.

What is a fair charge from behind? I am confused, since I think of a fair charge as being one that attempts to play the ball, and it is pretty difficult to play the ball when standing directly behind somebody. Indeed, I would say that most defenders do not even attempt to play the ball from this position; rather, they merely lean on the attacker, with the aim being to hamper the attacker's attempts at playing the ball.
If a player is shielding the ball, then he is denying, albeit legally, an opportunity for the opponent to play the ball. Therefore, he has to be able to "hold" his position on the ball. The opponent should be able to challenge for the ball and in this case, the only place he is going to be able to challenge from is behind.

So as long as you have more or less body to body contact, if the player from behind is able to dispossess the holder, it is going to be a legal challenge.

Some of the things that are not going to be allowed are things like, using hands in the back to push the holder over. Using hands on hips to facilitate getting around the holder. Any kind of charge from a distance where he just bangs into the holder or lowering the shoulder into the back of the holder (either of those would be careless, reckless or excessive force).

I hope this helps.

[JohnR]

Kev -

I very much appreciate the response.

However, I still remain puzzled as to the rules governing the situation wherein there are no hands, no charges, no shoulder banging. But the ballcarrier ends up flat on his face because the bigger, stronger defender uproots him from behind. Pushes his pelvis and/or hips against the attacker's butt, pushes hard, and the weaker attacker falls on his face.

I have a hard time believing that is a truly a play on the ball. I also have a hard time believe that it is strictly legal, since I have seen plays like this whistled as fouls many times in professional play. Yet ... it also does not seem strictly illegal, since at all levels of play I see defenders pushing with the body from behind without penalty.

So, I remain confused.