Question about Carling Cup & UEFA Cup

[VON9905]

I asked this question a few months ago, and I was thinking of asking this in the Games forum, but I want to know if the Carling Cup is a competition between the First, Second, and Third Divisions of England? I was told this before, but when I went to play in the competition in FIFA 2004, there were Premiership teams in the League Cup, so there was no difference between it and the FA Cup in the game. I want to know if I was given wrong information or if the game is just a bit off for allowing Premiership teams to compete. If anyone doesn't mind, I have another question: at what round do the losers of the group stages of the Champions League go play in the UEFA Cup? Thanks for any info you guys can help me with. I am playing FIFA 2004 and these two competitions are confusing what I thought I knew about them.


-Von

[erictheking]

The carling cup is a competition for all teams from the prem, 1st - 3rd divs plus I think a few of the top place conference teams have been allowed in for the past couple of years.

The 3rd placed teams from the group stage of the champions league go into the UEFA cup

[John Boy]

The Carling Cup is limited to the 92 clubs in the Premier League and Football League (i.e. Divisions One, Two & Three).

[Boro_lad]

while the fa cup has non league team competeing. That is the differance between the 2

[LMvCP]

How long is the qualification process for the FA cup for a team that does not pertain to the FA Premiere League and Nationwide Football leagues?

[Peakite]

There are two preliminary rounds followed by four qualifying rounds. A Conference club would have to win just one game (the fourth qualifying round) to get into the first round, those in the feeders would have three to play. The extra preliminary round is the first to be played, only a few games there, between teams several divisions below the Conference. Expect it to change a little with the forthcoming reorganisation of the pyramid though.

[RichardL]

How long is the qualification process for the FA cup for a team that does not pertain to the FA Premiere League and Nationwide Football leagues?
in length of time, they start at the end of August.

The qualifying rounds of the FA Cup are regional, drawn in 'groups' of 8. The 1st, 2nd and 3rd qualifying rounds whittle these groups down to just 1 team. Depending on the region, there may be a further one or two preliminary qualifying rounds for teams to qualify for qualifying round one. The winners of the groups then go into a draw with the best non-league teams, for a fourth qualifying round. The winners of the fourth qualifying round go into the first round draw with the teams from divisions 2 & 3. The winners of that play a second round of matches, and the winners of those go into a draw for the third round, along with the teams from the premiership and division 1.

In all, around 600 teams usually take part.

[DAGSports]

in length of time, they start at the end of August.

The qualifying rounds of the FA Cup are regional, drawn in 'groups' of 8. The 1st, 2nd and 3rd qualifying rounds whittle these groups down to just 1 team. Depending on the region, there may be a further one or two preliminary qualifying rounds for teams to qualify for qualifying round one. The winners of the groups then go into a draw with the best non-league teams, for a fourth qualifying round. The winners of the fourth qualifying round go into the first round draw with the teams from divisions 2 & 3. The winners of that play a second round of matches, and the winners of those go into a draw for the third round, along with the teams from the premiership and division 1.

In all, around 600 teams usually take part.
Yes, pretty long and complex stuff. The FA's website has the rules of the competition. So many teams enter because the only requirements are that a team find a ground where they can charge for tickets and that has acceptable and separate locker rooms/bathrooms for the teams and officials.

Since most English teams play in public parks (and remember, every team in the qualifying round is amateur unless you're talking about a team recently relegated from Division Three), I would think ground-sharing is fairly common.

[RichardL]

Since most English teams play in public parks (and remember, every team in the qualifying round is amateur unless you're talking about a team recently relegated from Division Three), I would think ground-sharing is fairly common.
Not true. Pretty much every single team that enters the FA Cup own their own ground. Instances of people renting a ground and entering a team on a whim are rare. In fact I'd go as far as to say that I've never heard of such a case happening. There are a heck of a lot of leagues below league level, more than enough to fill 600 places.


Parks football (sunday league) and non-league football (saturday leagues) are completely different things. Parks football is just organised recreational football, pub teams etc, wheareas non-league football is for clubs representing their towns and villages etc. There are even a few pro teams at the 6th level (i.e. 2 divisions below Div 3) but the majority are part-time even at 7th level (which encompasses the top 200 or so teams outside the football league.

[DAGSports]

Not true. Pretty much every single team that enters the FA Cup own their own ground. Instances of people renting a ground and entering a team on a whim are rare. In fact I'd go as far as to say that I've never heard of such a case happening. There are a heck of a lot of leagues below league level, more than enough to fill 600 places.


Parks football (sunday league) and non-league football (saturday leagues) are completely different things. Parks football is just organised recreational football, pub teams etc, wheareas non-league football is for clubs representing their towns and villages etc. There are even a few pro teams at the 6th level (i.e. 2 divisions below Div 3) but the majority are part-time even at 7th level (which encompasses the top 200 or so teams outside the football league.
Thanks for clearing that up. Amazing how many football clubs there actually are in England.

[VON9905]

Thanks for the info, but I still don't understand why there needs to be two competitions held that are basically the same. I understand the part about the Carling Cup just sorta cutting out all the amateur teams and getting straight to the pros, but it seems to me that it would be enough to just have the FA Cup and be done with it. No wonder so many Premier League teams play a third or fourth-string lineup in these games.

-Von

[Caesar]

Thanks for the info, but I still don't understand why there needs to be two competitions held that are basically the same. I understand the part about the Carling Cup just sorta cutting out all the amateur teams and getting straight to the pros, but it seems to me that it would be enough to just have the FA Cup and be done with it. No wonder so many Premier League teams play a third or fourth-string lineup in these games.

-VonThe FA Cup is played as a single match for each tie. This means that a small team can go several seasons without generating any revenue from these matches, which are extremely lucrative as they have the opportunity to play against the biggest and best clubs.

The idea of the League Cup (known ATM as the Carling Cup) when it was founded was to benefit these lower league teams. Each round was played over two legs, similar to CL and UEFA Cup knockout stages, which guaranteed a money-spinning home match every round. Interest from the Premier League didn't really take off until a valuble European qualifying spot was added in the 60s.

Nowadays, it often forms part of a team's domestic treble (Liverpool being the most recent). Being the less prestigious cup of the two, it often allows a midtable top-flight team a decent shot at some silverware, when the top sides are more concerned with the Premiership, FA Cup and Europe. A perfect example of this is this year, when Middlesborough and Bolton contested the final.

No offence to Boro or Bolton fans, by the way.

[VON9905]

Thank you for that info. That was the best I have been given so far. I guess now if I want even more, I should just do some searching on Google. But that was some great history. Thank you again, Caesar.

-Von

[LMvCP]

I have a question?

As of now, the Premiere Champions and Runner-Up get go directly to the CHamions League group stage. The 3rd and 4th place teams go directly into CL qualifying stages. The FA Cup winners and and 5th an 6th place teams go to the UEFA Cup.

Why is that the League Cup (Carling) does not get a direct slot into the UEFA Cup. Isnt the League Cup more prestigous considering all teams are professional?

[RichardL]

Thanks for the info, but I still don't understand why there needs to be two competitions held that are basically the same. I understand the part about the Carling Cup just sorta cutting out all the amateur teams and getting straight to the pros, but it seems to me that it would be enough to just have the FA Cup and be done with it. No wonder so many Premier League teams play a third or fourth-string lineup in these games.

-Von
The FA Cup is very old, starting in the 1871/2 season I think, nearly 20 years before the league formed. As the league grew there was something of a rivalry between the two organisations. In the late 50s teams started installing floodlights after the FA relented after previously banning floodlight games. These floodlit games were something of a novelty and even friendlies under lights attracted good crowds. It was with this in mind, and also the league's rivalry with the FA, that spawned the idea of a floodlit cup competition to be played mid-week (even the early finals were mid-week matches). As this competition was run by the league rather than the FA, it was only made open to the members of the league, unlike the FA Cup, which is open to members of the FA.

[DAGSports]

I have a question?

As of now, the Premiere Champions and Runner-Up get go directly to the CHamions League group stage. The 3rd and 4th place teams go directly into CL qualifying stages. The FA Cup winners and and 5th an 6th place teams go to the UEFA Cup.

Why is that the League Cup (Carling) does not get a direct slot into the UEFA Cup. Isnt the League Cup more prestigous considering all teams are professional?
Carling Cup winners DO go right into the UEFA Cup. Sixth place in the EPL does not get an automatic ticket to the UEFA Cup because Millwall will play Man U in the FA Cup final. As Man U will qualify for the Champions League, Millwall gets a place in the UEFA Cup. Because neither Middlesborough or Bolton could qualify for the UEFA Cup by their league standing, the winner got a UEFA Cup place and there are no places left for sixth in the league.

Last year, Man U and Liverpool met in the Carling Cup final. Both made it into Europe by their league position. Therefore, the UEFA Cup place dropped down to sixth place in the league, which was Blackburn.

[Treetaliano]

Because neither Middlesborough or Bolton could qualify for the UEFA Cup by their league standing, the winner got a UEFA Cup place and there are no places left for sixth in the league.


Have you checked the Premiership table recently? Bolton could still mathematically qualify for the Champions League.

[Clan]

Carling Cup winners DO go right into the UEFA Cup. Sixth place in the EPL does not get an automatic ticket to the UEFA Cup because Millwall will play Man U in the FA Cup final. As Man U will qualify for the Champions League, Millwall gets a place in the UEFA Cup. Because neither Middlesborough or Bolton could qualify for the UEFA Cup by their league standing, the winner got a UEFA Cup place and there are no places left for sixth in the league.

Last year, Man U and Liverpool met in the Carling Cup final. Both made it into Europe by their league position. Therefore, the UEFA Cup place dropped down to sixth place in the league, which was Blackburn.

Teams that are a little of the top in the league were also wishing for a Toon win in the UEFA Cup as it would have given 6th place an entry if they finished 5th.

Alas.........

[LMvCP]

Carling Cup winners DO go right into the UEFA Cup. Sixth place in the EPL does not get an automatic ticket to the UEFA Cup because Millwall will play Man U in the FA Cup final. As Man U will qualify for the Champions League, Millwall gets a place in the UEFA Cup. Because neither Middlesborough or Bolton could qualify for the UEFA Cup by their league standing, the winner got a UEFA Cup place and there are no places left for sixth in the league.

Last year, Man U and Liverpool met in the Carling Cup final. Both made it into Europe by their league position. Therefore, the UEFA Cup place dropped down to sixth place in the league, which was Blackburn.
Thanks :D

http://www.uefa.com/newsfiles/19071.pdf

I was looking at the regulations for the CL & Eufa Cup.

According to access list:

England will have the premiership champion & runner up participating in the Champions League group stage. The 3rd and 4th place team in the EPL participate in the 3rd qualifying stage of the Champions League.

The UEFA Cup will have the Domestic Cup winner (FA Cup), 5th, and 6th place club participate in the 1st round of the UEFA Cup.

Assume this is how it ends

1.Arsenal 36 24 12 0 70-25 84 Champions League Group
2.Chelsea 36 23 6 7 65-29 75 Champions League Group

3.Manchester United 36 22 5 9 61-34 71 Champions League Qualifying
4.Liverpool 36 15 11 10 51-36 56 Champions League Qualifying

5.Aston Villa 36 15 10 11 47-41 55 UEFA Cup 1st round
6.Newcastle United 35 13 14 8 47-35 53 UEFA Cup 1st round

7.Bolton Wanderers 36 13 11 12 46-53 50
8.Fulham 36 13 10 13 50-45 49
9.Charlton Athletic 36 13 10 13 46-47 49
10.Birmingham City 36 12 13 11 42-44 49
11.Southampton 35 12 9 14 39-39 45
12.Middlesbrough 36 12 9 15 41-46 45
13.Blackburn Rovers 36 12 7 17 50-57 43
14.Portsmouth 36 11 9 16 41-50 42
15.Everton 36 9 12 15 43-50 39
16.Tottenham Hotspur 36 11 6 19 44-57 39
17.Manchester City 36 8 14 14 49-51 38
18.Wolverhampton Wanderers 36 7 11 18 37-74 32
19.Leeds United 36 8 8 20 37-75 32
20.Leicester City 36 5 15 16 44-62 30

(Carling) League Cup Winner - Middlesbrough
(Carling) League Cup Runnerup - Bolton Wanderers

FA Cup Winner - Milwall/Man U
FA Cup Runnerup - Milwall/Man U

Quick question.... so if a previous Cup winner is not place 6th or higher, they dont get to participate in the Eufa cup?

So what happens to Boro, Bolton, and Milwall?

And why is the FA Cup finalist even considered for EUFA Cup participation? Shouldnt it be League Cup finalist since that Cup consist of all professional teams?

[Clan]

As has been stated above rdl - 6th place in the league will not give a team an automatic place in the UEFA Cup.
The places in Europe are given out to a country based on their co-efficient by UEFA.The countries FA then awards the places as it sees fit.
The Football Association of England has awarded next seasons places as follows...
http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/ContactUs/Postings/2004/03/European_Places.htm

....hope that clears it up for you.

The FA Cup winner used to go into the old Cup Winners Cup competition.
This competition has since been shelved due to the expansion of the Champions league - the Winners now go into the UEFA Cup.If the winners of the FA Cup have qualified for Europe from league position then the runners up get the berth.If both have qualified for Europe from league position then the berth will revert to 6th placed team in the league.