Ideal capacity for PGE Park after MLS renovation?

[pc4th]

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=sbd.preview&articleID=131279

PGE Park Hopes To Add About 10,000 Seats USL Timbers and Triple-A PCL Portland Beavers Owner Merritt Paulson "must have a signed finance and construction deal with the city to renovate PGE Park by Sept. 1 to bring" MLS to Portland by '11

Initial plans "call for adding about 10000 seats to the existing 19980 seats, making the stadium more of a bowl than the triangle it is now


If they add 10,000 to the already 19,800 seats capacity, the stadium will seat 29,800. What do you think should be the capacity at PGE Park?

Too big is bad for demand and season tickets but too small is also bad financially (Toronto with 15,000 waiting list). Demand should be greater than supply to ensure sellout, intimate setting. Portland already have a passionate following and an ownership that know what is doing and learning from the success in Toronto, Seattle.

In addition, there is no MLB, NFL, NHL to compete with. The Timbers could become a "Major League" sports level in the city. Seattle is selling out 32,500 seats a game even though it has MLB and NFL as competitors. Portland has only NBA but less population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

Seattle metro: 3,344,813

Portland metro: 2,207,462

My guess, I think capacity should be around 24,000. Closed off a section or two if demand doesn't warrant it to ensure an intimate sellout setting. Getting even 20,000 paid tickets would be way beyond what the feasibility/projection study for Portland bid envision (if I remember correctly, only about 13,000 paid attendance first year and then decrease to about 12,000 the following 2 years). Anyone still have that pdf file with all the revenue projections?

20,000 paid tickets would be among the top 3 in MLS.

1) Seattle Sounders FC 29,815 (capacity now 32,500 and all remaining games sold out)
2) Toronto FC 20,288
3) Los Angeles Galaxy 19,050
4) Real Salt Lake 16,045
5) Houston Dynamo 15,689
6) Chivas USA 15,312
7) DC United 14,811
8) Columbus Crew 12,868
9) Colorado Rapids 11,940
10) San Jose Earthquakes 11,774
11) Chicago Fire 11,726
12) New England Revolution 11,511
13) New York Red Bulls 11,385
14) Kansas City Wizards 9,703
15) FC Dallas 8,679

[bright]

I believe that some of the current seats will be removed to make way for new suites, a restaurant, and wider concourses. I am pretty sure the entire upper tier in the north end will be removed.

http://www.mlstoportland.com/templates/template2/?page=17

[Baracuda]

^^ I'm wondering what changes will be made to reflect the lower budget?

[gibroni]

I'm not sure this Paulson dude has a clue in regards to a proper MLS stadium. I do see that the redux will take place in phases, so it's not going to be done all at once or for the opener in 2011. Seems to me that the first stage should be the stand on what used to be left field. They should build it like the stand at the RB arena where the field level is seated and the upper tier is 3 stories of luxury suites.

[j66j66]

that's gotta be a typo. all sources up to this point have said that the seating will increase, but not by that much. the seating lost in the upper level of the north end is replaced by the east stands. furthermore, the latest news is that the renovations will be downscaled partly to save money on the whole deal. we don't know exactly what's being downsized, but i can guarantee you the capacity will not be 29,000.

[Asprilla9]

that's gotta be a typo. all sources up to this point have said that the seating will increase, but not by that much. the seating lost in the upper level of the north end is replaced by the east stands. furthermore, the latest news is that the renovations will be downscaled partly to save money on the whole deal. we don't know exactly what's being downsized, but i can guarantee you the capacity will not be 29,000.
i agree. there is something really wrong with those numbers.


to be honest, i've read just about every single article published on this matter, and I don't recall ever seeing a new capacity estimate at anything over 20,000. i'm pretty sure 20,000 will be the new capacity. they will have room to expand if they want, but i think it will start at 20k and stay there for a while.

[Paul Schmidt]

I'm expecting an addition of 10,000 seats... 6 to 9 K on the east side plus rows extended below the current wall in the current bowl.

I think what the article missed was mention of what would be removed. Maybe all seats above the posts... though now with a supposedly reduced budget, who knows?

[kahkakew]

Considering SJ is also in a substandard stadium for the next few years to come, PGE is suitable now considering other revenues and their attendande figures. Rochester has dual tenants, SJ is in a old box and renovations could be done over a few years...sure MLS may not agree, but this situation is not worse than other teams...look at \bmo and its plastic park, sure it is new, but what a lousy location and pitch.

[ShevaDani]

over 29K.What would happend if against Sounders, u have a stadium of 15k?:eek: I have a feeling that portland will sell a lot of season tickets.

[kahkakew]

I am sure they will, I hope they can handle 29000+ for sounders and caps games,maybe they could bring in temp seats for big games... but I doubt they will average much more than 15000 to 20000

[Unak78]

Considering SJ is also in a substandard stadium for the next few years to come, PGE is suitable now considering other revenues and their attendande figures. Rochester has dual tenants, SJ is in a old box and renovations could be done over a few years...sure MLS may not agree, but this situation is not worse than other teams...look at \bmo and its plastic park, sure it is new, but what a lousy location and pitch.
???

BMO's located downtown. Last time I checked that's exactly where MLS wants thier future stadium projects if it can be helped.

[The Marquis]

PGE Park plan is to add 10,000 seats but REMOVE 7,000 seats from the upper areas of the stadium in order to widen the concourse.

[Yoshou]

Considering SJ is also in a substandard stadium for the next few years to come, PGE is suitable now considering other revenues and their attendande figures. Rochester has dual tenants, SJ is in a old box and renovations could be done over a few years...sure MLS may not agree, but this situation is not worse than other teams...look at \bmo and its plastic park, sure it is new, but what a lousy location and pitch.

Couple of things.. SJ is currently at Buck Shaw Stadium waiting for an entirely new stadium to be built, they will not be renovating Buck Shaw Stadium. What other revenues do MLS teams have? I'm not going to dig through BigSoccer to find it, but someone posted a link that indicates that 60%-70% of a MLS team's money comes from ticket sales. I also wouldn't be surprised if PGE ends up with a FieldTurf pitch. I hope not, but considering both Vancouver and Seattle will have one, seems likely Portland would go with one as well.

[kahkakew]

Top players will not come to play for teams with plastic grass..they hate it as do I. For the extra cost to put in and maintain grass pitches, the lure for foreign players would make up for this. Unlike in Europe, North American cities think they have to make THEIR STADIUMS MULTI USE FACILITIES...these partnerships between municipal and private investors will continue to raise issues until owners own their own parks outright. Then decent stadiums will be built that are specific or multi purpose.

[Unak78]

Top players will not come to play for teams with plastic grass..they hate it as do I. For the extra cost to put in and maintain grass pitches, the lure for foreign players would make up for this. Unlike in Europe, North American cities think they have to make THEIR STADIUMS MULTI USE FACILITIES...these partnerships between municipal and private investors will continue to raise issues until owners own their own parks outright. Then decent stadiums will be built that are specific or multi purpose.
This did not stop Freddie Ljungberg or Fredy Montero from going to Seattle, no?

[Yoshou]

Top players will not come to play for teams with plastic grass..they hate it as do I. For the extra cost to put in and maintain grass pitches, the lure for foreign players would make up for this. Unlike in Europe, North American cities think they have to make THEIR STADIUMS MULTI USE FACILITIES...these partnerships between municipal and private investors will continue to raise issues until owners own their own parks outright. Then decent stadiums will be built that are specific or multi purpose.

I agree that grass would be preferable to FieldTurf, but as a new owner in a young league, the cost differential between FieldTurf and a grass field will be rather attractive to Paulson. The rest.... Unak78 pretty much read my mind.;)

[kahkakew]

This did not stop Freddie Ljungberg or Fredy Montero from going to Seattle, no?

Ljungberg is over the hill for Europe. he came for a good paycheck and frine benefits. He is several years removed from being a top player.
If Montero can stay out of jail, he has to maintain his scoring touch to be considered a top player for the MLS.

[kahkakew]

I hope they put grass into PGE as soon as they can. The turf may be cheaper over the long run, but it is a poor substitute for grass.

[Unak78]

Ljungberg is over the hill for Europe. he came for a good paycheck and frine benefits. He is several years removed from being a top player.
If Montero can stay out of jail, he has to maintain his scoring touch to be considered a top player for the MLS.
Montero was the top scorer in Columbia and already receiving interest from Europe. Considering that he's no 2 in scoring and no 1 in overall goals and assists, I'd say that he's for real and definitely the idea player that you want to get when you say young international talent. Ljungberg is coming to extend his career after a series, so if what you said before is true, both of them should have gone to another MLS team rather than Seattle. It still refutes your original point. There are ways to get top international players to play on an artificial pitch.

[Yoshou]

Montero was the top scorer in Columbia and already receiving interest from Europe. Considering that he's no 2 in scoring and no 1 in overall goals and assists, I'd say that he's for real and definitely the idea player that you want to get when you say young international talent. Ljungberg is coming to extend his career after a series, so if what you said before is true, both of them should have gone to another MLS team rather than Seattle. It still refutes your original point. There are ways to get top international players to play on an artificial pitch.

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