If it was up to you, when should offside be called?

[PVancouver]

Using the same example set forth in the sister poll, but...

Ignoring any existing FIFA or FA interpretations of the law, if you were making the rules, when would you personally prefer to have the attacker whistled for offside?

[Ref Flunkie]

Woo hoo, first to vote in each. I'll wait till later to discuss my votes :).

[IASocFan]

None of your choices match the FIFA or USSF guidelines. You flag/whistle when the player becomes involved in the play.

A player can be within 10 yards of the ball and be moving away from the play, because he knows he's offside and getting away from the play. He can also be 12 yards away from the ball and interfering with the keepers view of the ball. He can even be within playing distance, but allowing an onside teammate to play the ball without interfering with the play.

[billf]

Why the obsession with this subject? PVan, do you referee? You've never answered this. I can't understand why you feel a need to make relatively simple concepts where room exists to solve things not specified in TLOTG and examine them in minute detail. There is not going to be a magic bullet that simplifies the grey areas in the laws unless we want an NFL-style rule book. There are many variables at play during a game that might make one application appropriate in one situation, but not in another similar instance. My point is, soccer is an unpredictable game. Arbitrary edicts to "simplify" the rules in ways that you suggest, not limited to offside, would actually create more controversy. Besides that, you've consistently ignored "interefering with active play" when discussing offside. It is also possible to become involved in play in more ways than those listed in the Fifa circular. You are completely overlooking the flexibility afforded by the laws by trying to find a one size fits all, set in stone, solution to your perceived problem. The only 100% solution would be to do away with law 11 completely.

[PVancouver]

None of your choices match the FIFA or USSF guidelines. You flag/whistle when the player becomes involved in the play.

A player can be within 10 yards of the ball and be moving away from the play, because he knows he's offside and getting away from the play. He can also be 12 yards away from the ball and interfering with the keepers view of the ball. He can even be within playing distance, but allowing an onside teammate to play the ball without interfering with the play.Please refer to the example given in the sister poll. The player in question is not moving away from the ball. He is not interfering with the keepers view of the ball. For this poll only, FIFA's rules and guidelines do not apply. It is a question of what do you personally think the best way to enforce an offside law would be. In your case, please mark response 4, as that seems to be your answer.

[Jeff from Michigan]

If it were up to me, the correct answer would be: (5) None of the above.

The flag should go up when the offside player begins to participate in the play. This concept is flexible...and permits application regardless of what is happening on the field. It is also, in my humble opinion, what the Law 11 --- and the various clarifications, clarifications of the clarifications, and amendments to the clarifications --- actually means, once we cut through the descriptive phrases that seek to describe the various ways in which a player can participate.

If you want a 9,000 page rule book, analyzing every contigency that we can devise, you're not going to like this answer. But experience suggests to me that this kind of legalistic rule book, will be awkward, too complex for most people to understand, let alone master, and too rigid to adapt to the needs on the field in a fluid game. It will also not cover all the contingencies...since things have a way of happening that nobody has ever thought about.

[dienasty]

four words: play to the flag

[PVancouver]

The flag should go up when the offside player begins to participate in the play. This concept is flexible...and permits application regardless of what is happening on the field.OK. But in this particular example, when would you say the player begins to participate in the play? Please mark your answer accordingly. If you don't think I provided enough information in my example, I would be happy to elaborate.

[Ref Flunkie]

The flag should go up when the offside player begins to participate in the play. This concept is flexible...and permits application regardless of what is happening on the field. It is also, in my humble opinion, what the Law 11 --- and the various clarifications, clarifications of the clarifications, and amendments to the clarifications --- actually means, once we cut through the descriptive phrases that seek to describe the various ways in which a player can participate.

See I hate flexibility. If it was up to me, I'd be tempted to skip the entire passive offside thing entirely and simply say "when you are in an offside position and the ball is played beyond you (anywhere on the field), the flag should go up". Again I am one of those that would prefer an NFL style rulebook and not give the referee all this leeway on calls.

[Jeff from Michigan]

OK. But in this particular example, when would you say the player begins to participate in the play? Please mark your answer accordingly. If you don't think I provided enough information in my example, I would be happy to elaborate.

No...there isn't enough information: I don't know where the players are, where the ball is, how fast the players are moving, nor the direction of any of the players.

In your poll examples, the only two clearly incorrect answers I see would be (1) and (2)...the first because it treats the offside line like the blue line in hocky, without recognizing that simply being offside is not an offense; and the second because it doesn't take into account the relative positioning of the players: a offside player who's four yards BEHIND the defender who clears the ball is hardly interfering with play --- while a player who's four yards AHEAD of the defender probably isn't offside in the first place.

As for the rest...an offside player who touched the ball HAS committed an infraction, and should be flagged. Short of this, however, you'd need to provide a context for judging the player's actions, to give the AR the information needed to make an appropriate call.

[PVancouver]

There is not going to be a magic bullet that simplifies the grey areas in the laws unless we want an NFL-style rule book.I believe Circular 874 attempts to be that "magic bullet".


Arbitrary edicts to "simplify" the rules in ways that you suggest, not limited to offside, would actually create more controversy.I certainly wouldn't want any new edicts to simplify the laws to be "arbitrary". I certainly wouldn't want them to create any more controversy on an ongoing basis. Initially, any rule change will create controversy.


Besides that, you've consistently ignored "interefering with active play" when discussing offside.You can't be serious.


It is also possible to become involved in play in more ways than those listed in the Fifa circular.If that is the case, than there is something seriously wrong with the circular. It appears to list all the ways you can be interfering with play, interfering with an opponent, or gaining an advantage by being in that position. If the circular said "these are some of the ways", you would have a strong point.


You are completely overlooking the flexibility afforded by the laws by trying to find a one size fits all, set in stone, solution to your perceived problem.I'm just asking how the actual law and whatever law you might come up with would deal with this ONE PARTICULAR CASE. In the case of it being up to you, I don't care if it is a "one size fits all law" or a "9,000 page tome". That is completely up to you. I am simply asking for the purposes of this poll when would your law rule this player offside.

[PVancouver]

No...there isn't enough information: I don't know where the players are, where the ball is, how fast the players are moving, nor the direction of any of the players.

In your poll examples, the only two clearly incorrect answers I see would be (1) and (2)...This is the example I gave in the other poll; the same example that is to be used for this poll:

An attacker on the left side runs on to a through ball coming from a teammate in midfield. In order to reach the ball, he will have to run 30 yards down field. Unfortunately, he mistimes his run, and is in an offside position by about two feet when the ball is played. A teammate also near the offside line but on the right side of the field shouts out “don’t play the ball, you were offside!”. The player follows the path of the ball until it comes to a complete stop. The player stops one foot from the ball but does not ever even pretend to kick it. Meanwhile, a defender comes over to clear the ball out, and kicks it into touch.

If you need further elaboration, I will be happy to provide it.

As far as incorrect answers, there are no "incorrect" answers for this poll, as you are to indicate how you would prefer to see offside enforced. If an example law helps, suppose the law said "If a player is in an offside position, he shall be considered offside at the discretion of the referee", when would you consider my example player to be offside?

[david58]

I think some of us are making a real complicated issue out of something that is pretty simple, at least to me. Once participation is determined, in the opinion of the referee, the player should be penalized for offside. Maybe I'm missing something, but it has always seemed clear to me.

You know, if this horse isn't dead yet, it's real sick.....

[chrisrun]

I think some of us are making a real complicated issue out of something that is pretty simple, at least to me. Once participation is determined, in the opinion of the referee, the player should be penalized for offside. Maybe I'm missing something, but it has always seemed clear to me.

You know, if this horse isn't dead yet, it's real sick.....

So, at what point in this example are you raising your flag? When he goes after the ball but is 30 yards away, when he is within 10 yards, when he is right at the ball, or when he touches it? Simple question, what's the simple answer? I bet some flag it right away, some wait until he is closer. Which do you do?

[Alberto]

So, at what point in this example are you raising your flag? When he goes after the ball but is 30 yards away, when he is within 10 yards, when he is right at the ball, or when he touches it? Simple question, what's the simple answer? I bet some flag it right away, some wait until he is closer. Which do you do?

Assuming the player is within 10-20 yards of where the ball is played, soon as the player in the offside position makes a run for the ball he should be flagged by the AR and the Referee should blow his whistle. If the player in the offside position make no movement for the ball let play continue.

[Ref Flunkie]

Assuming the player is within 10-20 yards of where the ball is played, soon as the player in the offside position makes a run for the ball he should be flagged by the AR and the Referee should blow his whistle. If the player in the offside position make no movement for the ball let play continue.


Agreed, but this is not what is being taught, right? (See other voting thread)

[Statesman]

So, at what point in this example are you raising your flag? When he goes after the ball but is 30 yards away, when he is within 10 yards, when he is right at the ball, or when he touches it? Simple question, what's the simple answer? I bet some flag it right away, some wait until he is closer. Which do you do?

The only thing that matters is that the flag DOES go up.

If you put it up right away you would be making the right call, but too quickly. If you waited until he got on top of the ball you would be making the right call, but too slowly. The ideal time is when the perception is that an offside player is interfering with play -- you'll get the most support from the players and fans that way. That moment is up to the assistant referee to figure out, and no circular in the world will ever describe how to make that decision.

Ultimately, just do your best to MAKE the correct call, not WHEN to make the correct call. So long as you don't make the wrong call the rest will sort itself out.

[jkc313]

If it were up to me, the correct answer would be: (5) None of the above.

The flag should go up when the offside player begins to participate in the play. This concept is flexible...and permits application regardless of what is happening on the field. It is also, in my humble opinion, what the Law 11 --- and the various clarifications, clarifications of the clarifications, and amendments to the clarifications --- actually means, once we cut through the descriptive phrases that seek to describe the various ways in which a player can participate.

If you want a 9,000 page rule book, analyzing every contigency that we can devise, you're not going to like this answer. But experience suggests to me that this kind of legalistic rule book, will be awkward, too complex for most people to understand, let alone master, and too rigid to adapt to the needs on the field in a fluid game. It will also not cover all the contingencies...since things have a way of happening that nobody has ever thought about.

Amen!! A sensible answer

[PVancouver]

The ideal time is when the perception is that an offside player is interfering with play -- you'll get the most support from the players and fans that way. That moment is up to the assistant referee to figure out, and no circular in the world will ever describe how to make that decision.I think we are all in agreement that an offside player should be whistled when he is "interfering with play". But there seems to be a wide disagreement about what "interfering with play" should mean. Just look at the results of this poll. Circular 874 does indeed describe how to make this decision. One problem with Circular 874 is that "playing the ball" is not well defined and if it does mean contact with the ball is required as the USSF implies then only a small minority of referees would approve of it. As for the "ideal time", I think there is strong support for "immediately" if it is thought that if play continued the attacker would indeed reach the ball before or close to the time a defender can. And I certainly wouldn't want some ARs calling it one way and some ARs another.

[Statesman]

I think we are all in agreement that an offside player should be whistled when he is "interfering with play". But there seems to be a wide disagreement about what "interfering with play" should mean.

I think the disagreements are over WHEN does interfering with play occur, not whether it has occured or not.

Just look at the results of this poll. Circular 874 does indeed describe how to make this decision. One problem with Circular 874 is that "playing the ball" is not well defined and if it does mean contact with the ball is required as the USSF implies then only a small minority of referees would approve of it.

The poll has 19 votes. There is over 110,000 referees in the United States alone. There are many more hundreds of thousands worldwide. I do not think 19 votes means anything. USSF does not teach that the ball must be touched before offside is called. They just don't want the flag going up the split second the ball is passed if there is a good chance a legal player can get the ball first.

As for the "ideal time", I think there is strong support for "immediately" if it is thought that if play continued the attacker would indeed reach the ball before or close to the time a defender can. And I certainly wouldn't want some ARs calling it one way and some ARs another.

You're absolutely correct, and this is how offside still should be called -- so long as the only player who can play the ball is offside and he makes a run to do so. FIFA's interpretation was issued because ARs were, and still are, failing to distinguish between this scenario and a scenario where legal players could also play the ball.

One example I can think of that I saw occur about 4 times last season in the EPL was when a ball was passed into the space behind the defense towards an offside attacker. The AR immediately put the flag up, only to have another attacker on a run intercept the ball who was not offside and go streaking towards the goal in a one-on-one with the keeper. The so-called "intended recipient" of the pass had no involvement whatsoever, but because the flag went up immediately a perfectly legal scoring opportunity was taken away.

So now, FIFA says hang on. Just wait a few seconds there, bucko. Figure out what exactly is going to take place before making like the Statue of Liberty. If the ARs in the EPL had just held their horses for a few more seconds, we'd have seen quite a few more perfectly legal goals and much more exciting soccer.

Nobody is advocating waiting until an offside player runs all the way down the field to a ball when it is clear he's the only one trying to make a play.

If the only two choices are a) defender gets the ball, or b) offside player gets the ball, you put your flag up and give the ball to the defender, immediately.

If the choices are a) defender gets the ball, b) offside player gets the ball, or c) onside player gets the ball then you have to wait to make sure b) is actually going to occur.