Offside in the Revs game

[Statesman]

Here is a seperate thread to discuss this incident as I didn't feel it fit in the other thread I started. I wish I taped this game to get the exact play I am referring to, but since I did not I will go by memory.

There were two Metrostar attackers next to each other, making an identical run down the left wing. The one furthest to the left of the play had crept forward too far and was offside. The other hung back a little and stayed in line with the 2LD.

Their teammate made a pass to their area of play. Either one could have gotten the ball, but only one was actually offside at the time. The one who ended up playing the ball was the one onside and had, I would say, about an 85% chance for a goal, and 100% change for an unobstructed shot on goal.

However, despite the offside player not actually playing the ball, the flag went up anyway. The offside player was definitely in the immediate area of play, but by my interpretation was not involved in the actual play. He could have been taken out of the picture and the flag should not have gone up. There was no influence by his part whatsoever.

To me this is a perfect scenario for illustrating the "wait wait wait" mandate of FIFA on offside calls. The AR put his flag up too soon before seeing the onside player was the one who would actually make the play. Had he waited another second, he would be correct in keeping the flag down, and the score would likely have been 2-1.

It is key to remember that so long as there is a legal player with a chance to play the ball, the play must be allowed to continue to ensure the offside player will interfere. Even if this means allowing the offside player to make a run at the ball, it is the direction of FIFA to now "wait wait wait." Simply being in the area of play does not constitute offside!

[MidwestRef]

Let me post this scenario. The ball is crossed, and the player who is offside is making an obvious attempt to run to the ball to play. When she is about two steps from the ball, an onside player practically intercepts the ball from her. Besides bad communication on the offense's part, should this be considered offside? If I read your post/interpretation correctly, you are saying we should wait until the player has the ball on her feet before raising the flag.

I'm all in favor of "wait wait wait" before raising the flag, and I'm not always the best at following this. However, is there a point where you simply have to flag before offside before the ball is actually at the player's feet?

[jkc313]

Here is a seperate thread to discuss this incident as I didn't feel it fit in the other thread I started. I wish I taped this game to get the exact play I am referring to, but since I did not I will go by memory.

There were two Metrostar attackers next to each other, making an identical run down the left wing. The one furthest to the left of the play had crept forward too far and was offside. The other hung back a little and stayed in line with the 2LD.

Their teammate made a pass to their area of play. Either one could have gotten the ball, but only one was actually offside at the time. The one who ended up playing the ball was the one onside and had, I would say, about an 85% chance for a goal, and 100% change for an unobstructed shot on goal.

However, despite the offside player not actually playing the ball, the flag went up anyway. The offside player was definitely in the immediate area of play, but by my interpretation was not involved in the actual play. He could have been taken out of the picture and the flag should not have gone up. There was no influence by his part whatsoever.

To me this is a perfect scenario for illustrating the "wait wait wait" mandate of FIFA on offside calls. The AR put his flag up too soon before seeing the onside player was the one who would actually make the play. Had he waited another second, he would be correct in keeping the flag down, and the score would likely have been 2-1.

It is key to remember that so long as there is a legal player with a chance to play the ball, the play must be allowed to continue to ensure the offside player will interfere. Even if this means allowing the offside player to make a run at the ball, it is the direction of FIFA to now "wait wait wait." Simply being in the area of play does not constitute offside!

I think this is a prime example why FIFA decided they had to reterate for AR's to leave the flag down. The player in offside poistion in your example did not become involved in play in any manner and the flag should have stayed down

[Ref Flunkie]

Sounds like both cases were not offside using everything that I have read here and other places. Wait wait wait is very hard to do though :).

[PVancouver]

The play occurred at the 10 minute mark. Taylor was definitely offside, Galvan Rey was even with the last defender, although it was close. The players were standing right next to each other, and either one of them could have received the pass.

The LOTG require Taylor to "interfere with play". FIFA's circular says you much "play or touch the ball". Clearly Taylor is within playing distance of the ball. USSF says "play or touch the ball" means "contact" the ball. Clearly Taylor does not contact the ball, and refrains from additional participation in the play. Do FIFA and the USSF take the "interfering with play" rule too far? It seems to me a lot of people in the past have been called for offside without actually touching the ball (or interfering with opponents). Do we really want to say Taylor was "passively" offside?

Clearly the "wait, wait, flag" directive is making a major change to the way offside calls are made, at least in MLS. I'm not convinced everyone is completely aware of the changes in enforcement. None of the rule changes announced at the beginning of the season commented on new restrictions on the enforcement of offside. Many an announcer has lamented the "late" flag coming from the AR. I have seen MLS players plead there cases with ARs for them to raise the flag well before an offside player touches the ball, and I've also seen them excoriate ARs for taking so long to raise the flag when they finally did make the call.

As a coach and team captain, I'd be a more than a little upset if my defender kept one of two players onside and a goal was scored because he wasn't fully aware of the new offside interpretation or hadn't become adjusted yet to the requirement that he needs to keep BOTH players offside. Perhaps the AR has fully adjusted yet, either ;) .

FIFA say the rules haven't change, that they are only issuing a clarification. Some of the posters say that the clarification hasn't changed a thing, that in their nation offside has always been called this way. But I certainly don't think that's the case in the US. Are you willing to say that the play should/would not have been called offside last year, either, before the "clarification"? So, yeah, technically Galvan Rey was onside, and the flag should not have been raised. But I think the USSF needs to do a better job of getting the word out about this new interpretation. Because I suspect not everyone is on the same page. I mean if you really have to interfere, no offside should ever be called into you actually touch the ball (or interfere with an opponent). Not that I'm saying that won't ever happen, but we are not there yet.

FWIW, Galvan Rey took the shot after receiving the pass, and it was blocked by Brown. Leonard, hearing the whistle, let the rebound run between his legs, making (apparently) no effort to stop it. Guevara buried the rebound, although if there was no whistle I don't think Leonard lets the ball run between his legs. The score was 0-0 at the time, coming just before the game's two goals were scored.

[PVancouver]

It used to be (last year) if you were a defender and the ball went in the general direction of an offside player, you didn't have to run, because you knew the player would be called for offside. Now you have to run, because you don't know if the offside player will actually play the ball, or if another player who was onside will play it first.

I'm not saying one situation is better than the other, but from a defender's point of view, this is a huge difference (and more work!).

[Crowdie]

Clearly the "wait, wait, flag" directive is making a major change to the way offside calls are made, at least in MLS. I'm not convinced everyone is completely aware of the changes in enforcement. None of the rule changes announced at the beginning of the season commented on new restrictions on the enforcement of offside. Many an announcer has lamented the "late" flag coming from the AR. I have seen MLS players plead there cases with ARs for them to raise the flag well before an offside player touches the ball, and I've also seen them excoriate ARs for taking so long to raise the flag when they finally did make the call.

I am glad I am not the only person seeing this every Saturday morning.

Crowdie

[Statesman]

Coaches need to start training their players to not try and make the offside call for the referee. How many times do you see defenders turn to the assistant with their arms raised after a pass? Why are they focusing their attention on the assistant when there is a game going on? If they don't get the call, they are completely out of position with no chance at stopping the shot.

Defenders need not worry about offside. Try to make the attacker illegal, but play as if there is no offside call. It is a matter of discipline, which the sport of soccer has lost over the decades.

[Crowdie]

I was running the line on Wednesday for a very senior referee who had a very unique solution to the problem. In the pre-game he asked that if the player was in an offside position and likely to be penalised to raise the flag. He would then make the call on whether to penalise or not. In theory not that different from normal except we flagged a bit more than usual. It actually worked quite well but I don't know if I would try it when I am in the middle.

Crowdie

[MidwestRef]

Sounds like both cases were not offside using everything that I have read here and other places. Wait wait wait is very hard to do though :).

If you couldn't tell, I was the AR on my situation above. It looks like I made a mistake. I've been taught that an approach to the ball constitutes active involvement. It'll take a little time to re-arrange my thinking.

[Statesman]

The only time the approach constitutes involvement is when no other legal player has a chance to play the ball.

[Ref Flunkie]

If you couldn't tell, I was the AR on my situation above. It looks like I made a mistake. I've been taught that an approach to the ball constitutes active involvement. It'll take a little time to re-arrange my thinking.


I hear ya, when the rules or interpretation of rules change so often, they should expect some lag time for referees to adjust to the change. That's one thing about soccer that I hate....they seem to change some rule or interpretation every year!! What other sport do you see this in????


Actually where this is a real problem is at lower levels where things are a bit more crouded around the ball. Sometimes it is hard to tell if the offside player has actually played the ball because there are a good 3-5 players around the ball. It isn't like high level games where 99% of these things are individual runs in open space.

[refmike]

The first post had the critical information. The offside player could have been removed without any change in the rest of the play. This is one of the definitions of non-participation. Also the FIFA directive did not say that a player must touch the ball to participate. It gives touching the ball as an example of participation.

We are also taught that someone who defends against an offside player is making a mistake and that is not our problem so it is difficult to say if an offside player running for the ball and drawing the defense is actually participating. I say if he has any real chance to get the ball then he must be called. If it is clear that some onside attacker or a defender will get there first, then he has not participated.

Lastly, I am not a senior referee but any ref who tells his AR to raise the flag and he will decide to call it or not is himself interferring with play. Once the flag goes up, many players will stop. It should be an unusual situtation to then wave the flag down.

[PVancouver]

The only time the approach constitutes involvement is when no other legal player has a chance to play the ball.Why shouldn't the referee have to wait until the offside player actually interferes with play? Doing otherwise seems premature according the official interpretation of the law.

Sometimes it is hard to tell if the offside player has actually played the ball because there are a good 3-5 players around the ball.Yes, this certainly can be a problem, even in MLS (but more so at lower levels). And we expect the AR to determine if contact is made from the touchline, possibly from the far side of the field--having him wait to raise the flag until he sees the touch. And the defense cannot be sure the AR saw any offside at all until a potentially offside player actually plays the ball. I am sure they will get used to it eventually, but it will take some getting used to.

Perhaps the AR should raise the flag halfway, pointed toward the field, if a player was in an offside position when played by a teammate, and raise it all the way when the offside player actually interferes with play or an opponent. This would allow the offside player to check and see if he will be called for offside if he plays the ball, and the defense to check and see if they have to defend that attacker (at least the one farthest downfield).

[IASocFan]

I was running the line on Wednesday for a very senior referee who had a very unique solution to the problem. In the pre-game he asked that if the player was in an offside position and likely to be penalised to raise the flag. He would then make the call on whether to penalise or not. In theory not that different from normal except we flagged a bit more than usual. It actually worked quite well but I don't know if I would try it when I am in the middle.

Crowdie


Interesting! This is how I was first taught how to flag offside players back in the late 70s. The linesman was to bring the flag up when a player was in the offside position and the CR was to judge whether to whistle for offside. By the mid 80s, we were being taught to flag when they should be whistled for offside.

[PVancouver]

The first post had the critical information. The offside player could have been removed without any change in the rest of the play. This is one of the definitions of non-participation. Also the FIFA directive did not say that a player must touch the ball to participate. It gives touching the ball as an example of participation.If Taylor wasn't there, I suspect the entire NE defense would have attempted to play Galvan Rey offside, not just 3/4ths of it. According to you, Taylor didn't participate, but then you also say he doesn't have to touch the ball to be interfering with play. What is your criteria then?

We are also taught that someone who defends against an offside player is making a mistake and that is not our problem so it is difficult to say if an offside player running for the ball and drawing the defense is actually participating.At least it used to be difficult to say until FIFA issued its directive, when you are only offside when you "play or touch the ball". As far as it being a mistake, how can the defense be sure that the referees also think the player was offside?

Lastly, I am not a senior referee but any ref who tells his AR to raise the flag and he will decide to call it or not is himself interferring with play. Once the flag goes up, many players will stop. It should be an unusual situtation to then wave the flag down.It is definitely a mistake for the defense to stop merely at the sight of a raised flag. The center referee is under no obligation to blow the whistle.

[Alberto]

The first post had the critical information. The offside player could have been removed without any change in the rest of the play. This is one of the definitions of non-participation. Also the FIFA directive did not say that a player must touch the ball to participate. It gives touching the ball as an example of participation.

We are also taught that someone who defends against an offside player is making a mistake and that is not our problem so it is difficult to say if an offside player running for the ball and drawing the defense is actually participating. I say if he has any real chance to get the ball then he must be called. If it is clear that some onside attacker or a defender will get there first, then he has not participated.

Lastly, I am not a senior referee but any ref who tells his AR to raise the flag and he will decide to call it or not is himself interferring with play. Once the flag goes up, many players will stop. It should be an unusual situtation to then wave the flag down.

It is entirely possible and not an unusual occurrence to see a center waive down his AR. There are many times that because of depth perception problems on a wide field or when players are far away from the AR touchline, that the AR cannot immediately discern where a flighted ball is in relation to the players. Therefore, it is the duty of the CR to waive down his AR if he sees the ball is directed to a player in an onside position.

Players are taught to keep playing until they hear the whistle. Just because the AR flag goes up does not mean you stop playing wait for the whistle or keep playing.

It is a mistake to say the AR interferred with play. Only players or outside agents can do that.

[bluedevils]

As a player and a referee, I do not like the trend in offside guidance from FIFA and USSF. The terms 'involved in active play' and 'interfering with how play develops' still exist, right?

If I was defending 2 players, one of whom was in an offside position and the other of whom was onside, and the offside-position player moved toward the ball as it came close to him, only to dummy the ball for the onrushing teammate who was onside-- in my opinion, that is offside and is penalized. I believe that FIFA would agree. My scenario may not be quite what happened in the MLS example which started this thread, but I described it to show that the offside-position player need not touch the ball in order to affect how play develops or to interfere with an opponent.

[bluedevils]

I was running the line on Wednesday for a very senior referee who had a very unique solution to the problem. In the pre-game he asked that if the player was in an offside position and likely to be penalised to raise the flag. He would then make the call on whether to penalise or not. In theory not that different from normal except we flagged a bit more than usual. It actually worked quite well but I don't know if I would try it when I am in the middle.

Crowdie

Interesting anecdote. I'm all for doing something a certain way if it works well, and it sounds like it did work well for your crew on this game. But it is definitely in conflict with how USSF wants its ARs handling the flag re: offside infringements. The ARs are supposed to raise the flag only if they have already decided the player should be penalized.

[Crowdie]

As a player and a referee, I do not like the trend in offside guidance from FIFA and USSF. The terms 'involved in active play' and 'interfering with how play develops' still exist, right?.

"involved in active play" - yes
"interfering with how play" - no

If I was defending 2 players, one of whom was in an offside position and the other of whom was onside, and the offside-position player moved toward the ball as it came close to him, only to dummy the ball for the onrushing teammate who was onside-- in my opinion, that is offside and is penalized. I believe that FIFA would agree. My scenario may not be quite what happened in the MLS example which started this thread, but I described it to show that the offside-position player need not touch the ball in order to affect how play develops or to interfere with an opponent.

The above would result in the offside player being penalised for "making a gesture or movement while standing in the path of the ball to DECEIVE OR DISTRACT AN OPPONENT". Source: FIFA circular 874.

Interesting anecdote. I'm all for doing something a certain way if it works well, and it sounds like it did work well for your crew on this game. But it is definitely in conflict with how USSF wants its ARs handling the flag re: offside infringements. The ARs are supposed to raise the flag only if they have already decided the player should be penalized.

I am not actively recommending it and it was raised for interest only but it did work for us on the night.

Crowdie