September edition - the Ursuline 100

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by kyledane
A few points:
1. I will renew my disapproval at having Ramiro Corrales listed as a defender. Quakes fans will tell you that any time he spent in defense was due solely to the team's significant injury troubles there (missing Agoos and Dayak for much of this season). His natural position, and where he is found under normal circumstances with the Quakes, is in the midfield.

A lot of people have trouble with this concept, but International play does not equal club play. The list is long of guys who play one position for their club and another for country. In the case of Corrales, Arena does not use flank midfielders that much. Corrales certainly is not skilled enough to be an attacking midfielder, so that leaves a defensive midfield role, which Corrales has a shot at. But Arena clearly has a preference for outside backs that can get forward and Corrales can do this and has shown defensive ability as well. It is somewhat of a longshot, but Corrales seems a better fit within Arena's system at left back, though it is close.

Originally posted by kyledane
2. Nick Garcia is placed far too low on the defender list. He certainly should be above the disappointing Danny Califf and the plodding Jimmy Conrad at least. Garcia has now shown the ability to move into central defense, thus increasing his value at the international level, while Califf has regressed and is only a spot starter at present.

Garcia is not good enough to make up for his lack of size. For that reason, even if Califf is "disappointing" -- and it should be noted that he generally starts for a better team than Garcia, his physical skills make him a better international prospect than Garcia.

Originally posted by kyledane


...

Along those same lines, I'm also puzzled as to why Landon Donovan is thrown in with a group that is virtually all flank midfielders. It seems to me that some refinement is necessary to keep the midfielders organized in a way that more closely resembles the actual depth charts on the team. I cannot seen Landon Donovan as being in competition with Eddie Lewis for a spot on the US roster, nor can I see Claudio Reyna competing with Richie Williams. My suggestion would be to have three midfield categories: defensive mid, attacking central mid and flank mid.

Well since Arena does not use these categories, I don't think it makes sense to do so. Arena is definitely not wed to using one attacking mid and one dmids with two flank midfielders. The best you can do with Arena is classify midfielders into those that play deep and those that play more forward. Yes, Steve Ralston has to beat out Landon Donovan for playing time.

[FlashMan]

my .02 -

Garcia is way better than Califf. Califf can barely kick the ball much less play soccer. Garcia is also much better than Conrad as much as I hate to admit it.

Corrales is much more of a natural midfielder (left mid and/or central/holding mid) than left back. Whoever said it was right - he's been playing back there due to injuries and his own versatility.

In the end Donovan should probably be on both the midfielder list AND the striker list, though I know that doesn't really work on this particular depth chart.

[Martin Fischer]

Fair enough, but ...

Originally posted by FlashMan
my .02 -

Garcia is way better than Califf. Califf can barely kick the ball much less play soccer. Garcia is also much better than Conrad as much as I hate to admit it.

OK, where is Garcia going to play. Talent or not,m he has to fit somewhere. I just don't see it -- too small to play centrally in the back, doesn't get forward enough to play outside in the back and doesn't have the skill for a holding midfiled role.

Originally posted by FlashMan
Corrales is much more of a natural midfielder (left mid and/or central/holding mid) than left back. Whoever said it was right - he's been playing back there due to injuries and his own versatility.

Maybe, though Corrales played in the back in the Olympics or Olympics qualifying, so it's not like it is some hair-brained scheme. Corrales is simply not explosive enough to play a wing midfield role, assuming that Arena wanted to use such a player. Maybe Corrales is a better fit in a holding midfield role, but if I were him I would rather compete with Frankie Hejduk or Diego Guitierez or even Wade Barrett on the left than with Reyna, Matroeni, JOB, Armas, Vaegnas etc.

Originally posted by FlashMan
In the end Donovan should probably be on both the midfielder list AND the striker list, though I know that doesn't really work on this particular depth chart.

Well, it's just another way to organize the list. No big thing. The important thing is to recognize that guys like Mark Chung, Steve Ralston, Jason Kreis are competing with playing time with LD and Mathis when you get down to it.

[kyledane]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer
OK, where is Garcia going to play. Talent or not,m he has to fit somewhere. I just don't see it -- too small to play centrally in the back, doesn't get forward enough to play outside in the back and doesn't have the skill for a holding midfiled role.
The fact that you don't see it should have nothing to do with the way this list is put together. No one here saw it that either Richie Williams or Mike Burns had the ability to play at the international level and yet both have numerous caps, so clearly our opinions are not the most important factor. What should matter is demonstrated ability to play positions that are of interest at the international level. Despite his small stature, Garcia has done that at two positions.

I happen to think Garcia fits very well as an outside back and that his failure to go forward when he played there for KC was more the result of KC's system and personnel than a lack of ability on his part. I could be wrong. It may be that when he gets to the international level (finally) he will be unable to go forward effectively. But that's why you bring players into camp and get them into friendlies. Once they've proved it at the MLS level, you give them the chance to prove it internationally. Garcia has earned that shot, while a number of players placed above him on this list have not.

Maybe, though Corrales played in the back in the Olympics or Olympics qualifying, so it's not like it is some hair-brained scheme. Corrales is simply not explosive enough to play a wing midfield role, assuming that Arena wanted to use such a player. Maybe Corrales is a better fit in a holding midfield role, but if I were him I would rather compete with Frankie Hejduk or Diego Guitierez or even Wade Barrett on the left than with Reyna, Matroeni, JOB, Armas, Vaegnas etc.
You say he's not explosive enough to play wing midfield. I say he doesn't play defense well enough to play flank defense. So where does that leave us? With Corrales on neither of these lists and that's the way it should be. There is a good reason why he's never been able to win a regular starting role in this league over the last seven years. He's decent at many things, but above average at nothing.

Well, it's just another way to organize the list. No big thing. The important thing is to recognize that guys like Mark Chung, Steve Ralston, Jason Kreis are competing with playing time with LD and Mathis when you get down to it.
You can say it, but I don't believe it. Chung and Ralston are competing with Cobi and Stewart as far as I can see for the flank positions on the team. Kreis is competing with Donovan and Mathis for central attacking mid. You would not ever see a US team that did not have some of each (eschewing flank players for all central mids or vice versa). So logically, the competitions for those positions must be mostly separate, even if Bruce doesn't list them as such.

I'm fine with leaving it as is for the purposes of discussion, but it will continue to make me uncomfortable.

[The Wanderer]

I doubt we see Garcia for the Nats. He could be the 'right man marker' in a 3-5-2 maybe. Other than that he doesn't have the ball skill or passing skill to play right back in a 4-4-2 and he's really short to try and play centrally.

[kyledane]

Originally posted by The Wanderer
I doubt we see Garcia for the Nats. He could be the 'right man marker' in a 3-5-2 maybe. Other than that he doesn't have the ball skill or passing skill to play right back in a 4-4-2 and he's really short to try and play centrally.
I think you guys are both missing a very key point here with the "he doesn't have the skills" comments. Not every player that has come to the Nats and done well appeared to have the skills when he was playing at lower levels of competition. If you were to ask US fans four years ago whether Tony Sanneh had the skills you describe, 80% of them would have said no (and the other 20% would have been wrong). Yet, here he is now, listed as our best defender.

We are not so advanced as a soccer nation that we can count on having complete players at every position. We will continue to have players on our team who have found ways to overcome their deficiencies.

I'm not saying Garcia is one of them. But I think his ability to succeed consistently in his MLS roles is testament to his chances. By the same token, you will note my consistency in doubting the chances of players who have not been so successful in our league like Corrales and Califf. The best indicator of future success is past success - and the higher the level of that past success the better.

[Short Corner]

Kyledane,

You have it backwards. Sanneh is the posterchild for all of us who think that Garcia will not make it at the international level, but Califf might. Sanneh shows that a player with outstanding physical strength and speed can gradually acquire sufficient skills to be a good international player. He shows why some think Califf and Curtin as center backs, and Broome as an outside back, have a shot internationally while Garcia and Rusty Pierce probably do not.

The player Nick Garcia has to emulate if he wants an international career is Jeff Agoos, who is neither big nor outstandingly fast, but was and perhaps still is a useful international defender. But to do so he would have to learn to read the game, and organize a defense, as well as Agoos or Lalas can now, and hope that Bocanegra, Curtin, Califf, Akwari and Onyewu do not develop that aspect of their game. A long shot, but not impossible. Of course, Rusty Pierce, Steve Jolley, Brian Dunseth, Chad McCarty, and every other MLS defender has the same long shot, and I don't see why anyone who isn't a died in the wool Wizards fan would single out Garcia as the one most likely to succeed.

[schmuckatelli]

Originally posted by wu-tang beez
JK better than anyone, now that's funny. Jovan is all pedigree, which is great for a dog and pony show, but sorry in the real world. He's never done ANYTHING professionally or internationally and despite his appearance in the champions league, that guy's a spare....While Kreis will soon be the all time scorer, JK is an overrated journey man.
Jovan Kirovski: 56 Appearances, 7 goals in international play.
Jason Kreis: 14 Appearances, 1 goal in international play.
But don't let the facts stand in your way; after all, Kreis is heaps better than JK ;)

Kreis is a good club player, has been brilliant for Dallas, but has not shown the goods in a USA shirt.

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by kyledane

The fact that you don't see it should have nothing to do with the way this list is put together. No one here saw it that either Richie Williams or Mike Burns had the ability to play at the international level and yet both have numerous caps, so clearly our opinions are not the most important factor. What should matter is demonstrated ability to play positions that are of interest at the international level. Despite his small stature, Garcia has done that at two positions.


Of course I saw that Richie Williams had the ability to play for the Nats -- he does the same thing for the Nats (on those rare occasions he played) that he did for Arena in DC. When I say that "I don't see" something it is just a figure of speech. Since it is confusing, I will state my opinion without this little flourish. Garcia is not big enough to play in the center and doesn't get forward well enough for the outside.

Originally posted by kyledane

I happen to think Garcia fits very well as an outside back and that his failure to go forward when he played there for KC was more the result of KC's system and personnel than a lack of ability on his part. I could be wrong. It may be that when he gets to the international level (finally) he will be unable to go forward effectively. But that's why you bring players into camp and get them into friendlies. Once they've proved it at the MLS level, you give them the chance to prove it internationally. Garcia has earned that shot, while a number of players placed above him on this list have not.

Why do you "happen to believe" that. He has never done it. I think Arena will call him into a camp at some point. But my opinion is that Garcia will never establish himself at the international level, mainly for the reasons I and Wanderer gave.

Originally posted by kyledane

You say he's not explosive enough to play wing midfield. I say he doesn't play defense well enough to play flank defense. So where does that leave us? With Corrales on neither of these lists and that's the way it should be. There is a good reason why he's never been able to win a regular starting role in this league over the last seven years. He's decent at many things, but above average at nothing.

Where does that leave us? With me right and you wrong! I don't know if Corrales can play at the international level.? But given his experience at left back and his sucess this year on one of MLS's best teams, especially given the weakness the US has at left back, he is worth a look. IMHO.


Originally posted by kyledane

You can say it, but I don't believe it. Chung and Ralston are competing with Cobi and Stewart as far as I can see for the flank positions on the team. Kreis is competing with Donovan and Mathis for central attacking mid. You would not ever see a US team that did not have some of each (eschewing flank players for all central mids or vice versa). So logically, the competitions for those positions must be mostly separate, even if Bruce doesn't list them as such.

Have you even watched the USMNT? Arena is not wed to using wide midfielders. Look at the midfields in the three games in the World Cup where a 4-4-2 was used --

Poland -- LD, JOB, Reyna and Stewart : basically no wide players though Stewart is a hybrid.

South Korea -- Donovan, JOB, Reyna, Beasley -- only Beasley is a flank midfielder.

Portugal -- the closest to tradtional with JOB and Mastroeni in the middle, with Stewart drifting all over the field, but more on the right, and Beasley working the left.

BTW Ralston and Chung can't play at the international level though Arena will probably call them into camp to be nice and respectful of their club accomplishments.

Originally posted by kyledane

I'm fine with leaving it as is for the purposes of discussion, but it will continue to make me uncomfortable.

Open your mind!

[wu-tang beez]

I'd like to see how big and tall Cherundolo is in comparison to Garcia. Dolo looks like a 5'6" midget on TV while Garcia does not. Plus, garcia din't look to small @ the Cotton Bowl in person, though I didn't get anywhere near him. Klein could've taken all of our lunch money including Arnold's tormentor, the Gooch.

Let's not dive into the whole Rusty Pierce hack issue again. I think any MLS standout has earned a shot on the Nats, including Rusty.

BTW , Sr.Schmuck I'd rather spend time proving a guy's good only w/ his club but not w/ the nats than on a pedigreed journey man that stole 56 caps from better athletes.

[FlashMan]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer

I think Arena will call him into a camp at some point.

This statement was a bit ambiguous but in care I read it right, Arena did call Garcia into camp in December? 2000, the year after the Wizards won the Cup. It was also the camp when he called in practically every Wizard, including Zavagnin, Brown, Henderson and Prideaux.

I don't think he ever got a cap though.

[Martin Fischer]

Flashman -- my statement referred to the future. I think in the next few years, Garcia will make a camp. As a matter of fact, I think Garcia did make one camp but never played.

Wang... - Yes, Cherundolo is no bigger than Garcia, probably smaller. The differenceis that Cherundolo is quite good at getting forward, something I don't think Garcia can do, though others disagree.

[Karl K]

Originally posted by FlashMan
This statement was a bit ambiguous but in care I read it right, Arena did call Garcia into camp in December? 2000, the year after the Wizards won the Cup. It was also the camp when he called in practically every Wizard, including Zavagnin, Brown, Henderson and Prideaux.

I don't think he ever got a cap though.

I think Garcia is one of those players -- Jason Kreis anyone?? -- who will always do fine at the club level, but simply not be able to cut it at the international level.

I always thought Garcia really should have been a d-mid, but in college, he had to play sweeper because nobody else at Indiana could do it, and he was the only legitimate professional level defensive oriented type on that talent laden squad.

There he went and there, more or less, he's stuck.

For those who think Garcia can play internationally, there was this play last year, right in front of me at Soldier Field, where a 38 year old left-footed midfielder -- very much an EX-international -- took a pass in stride while Nick was marking him, then INCREASED his speed, gaining two steps on Nick over 20 yards or so while DRIBBLING WITH the ball, and then finishing far post from just outside the area.

I'm sorry, this is not the defensive prowress we like to see in our USMNT back line.

[kyledane]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer
Why do you "happen to believe" that. He has never done it.
I'm not sure what you're referring to anymore, but I'll restate what I said. He has been a successful outside back in MLS, and he is better suited physically to being an outside back, or perhaps a d-mid at the international level. From what I have seen, I believe he has a chance of succeeding at right back at the international level, despite some deficiencies that have been noted. I base this mostly on his ability to succeed under a variety of circumstances in MLS.

He's clearly overcoming whatever shortcomings he has in MLS, so why would I assume that he could not do so internationally? He may not be able to step up to the next level, but the only way to know is to give him a chance at it now, since he's proved all he can at the MLS level.

Where does that leave us? With me right and you wrong! I don't know if Corrales can play at the international level.? But given his experience at left back and his sucess this year on one of MLS's best teams, especially given the weakness the US has at left back, he is worth a look. IMHO.
The problem is that the "experience" at left back that you refer to is completely separate from his success (if you want to call it that) with the Quakes this year. If he played left back for the Quakes this year it was for no more than a couple of games as an injury or card replacement - Wade Barrett has manned that position in just about every game.

On both the MetroStars and the Olympic team in Sydney Corrales played some left back, but on neither team was he able to nail down the starting job. This has to be a warning sign. His past coaches have never had confidence in him at that position (or any other for that matter). I don't see any reason to give him a chance to win the position at the international level if he's been unable to win the job at lower levels against poorer competition.

Have you even watched the USMNT?
Yes I have. Keep your snide comments to yourself, it's embarrassing.

Arena is not wed to using wide midfielders. Look at the midfields in the three games in the World Cup where a 4-4-2 was used --

Poland -- LD, JOB, Reyna and Stewart : basically no wide players though Stewart is a hybrid.

South Korea -- Donovan, JOB, Reyna, Beasley -- only Beasley is a flank midfielder.

Portugal -- the closest to tradtional with JOB and Mastroeni in the middle, with Stewart drifting all over the field, but more on the right, and Beasley working the left.
I see that these games support my argument rather than yours, with wide midfielders appearing in every game. Whether Stewart is a "hybrid" or "drifts all over the field" he is a wide player most of the time.

In any case, if you read my post more carefully, I said only that the team, meaning the full 18, would always include both wide and central players, not that the lineup would necessarily include both. There apparently are some cases where tactically Bruce feels he can leave most of the outside speed to the outside backs. But he would never drop the wide midfielders from the team because there are cases where he feels he needs one or two true wing players, particularly late in games when the opponent is tired, so there are just about always at least two on the team.

BTW Ralston and Chung can't play at the international level though Arena will probably call them into camp to be nice and respectful of their club accomplishments.
I agree, it's past time for either of them to move to the next level. But their failure to step up to the international level points out another issue for the Nats - that we haven't developed many good outside midfielders lately aside from Beasley. And this is a major factor in Bruce choosing to use hybrid players like Stewart and even Donovan as the fourth or fifth midfielder.

[dark knight]

No personal attacks please.

[The Wanderer]

Actually, IMHO Rusty Pierce has the athleticism to make it........when he acquires sufficient enough skill and tactical knowledge. That probably won't be by 2006 but he'd only be 29 or 30 in 2010 AFAIK.

I'd give Corrales and Broome a shot at left back. Davis from the Metros should get a chance also.

[Martin Fischer]

Well we have gone back and forth on Corrales and Garcia enough and I am satisifed that we just have different opinions there. I guess Kyledane and I see things differently on who is a wide midfielder and who is not.

As for personal attacks, I didn't see any from kyledane against me. He attacked some things I wrote, which is different. I did make some "snide" remarks, though I think they were telling not "embarassing." To each their own.

Anyway, on to a couple of points that I think are interesting.

Originally posted by kyledane

In any case, if you read my post more carefully, I said only that the team, meaning the full 18, would always include both wide and central players, not that the lineup would necessarily include both. There apparently are some cases where tactically Bruce feels he can leave most of the outside speed to the outside backs. But he would never drop the wide midfielders from the team because there are cases where he feels he needs one or two true wing players, particularly late in games when the opponent is tired, so there are just about always at least two on the team.

Well that flew right by me before. Of course, Arena will never eschew wide players from the team; at a minimum they give you the ability to make a tactical change. My point was that Arena does not automatically play the best dmid, the best attacking central midfielder, the best right-sided midifelder and the best left-sided midfielder. Instead, Arena seems to me to choose the four best midfielders available and then deploy them in a balanced manner that gives a reasonable defensive shape, but is not necessarily in the traditional US "diamond" four midfield. I thought you disagreed.

Originally posted by kyledane
I agree, it's past time for either of them to move to the next level. But their failure to step up to the international level points out another issue for the Nats - that we haven't developed many good outside midfielders lately aside from Beasley. And this is a major factor in Bruce choosing to use hybrid players like Stewart and even Donovan as the fourth or fifth midfielder.

Or one could look at it that we have developed players who are more comfortable in tight spaces and who don't have to flee to the outside to be effective. You see negative, I see positive in this fact.

[dark knight]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer

As for personal attacks, I didn't see any from kyledane against me. He attacked some things I wrote, which is different. I did make some "snide" remarks, though I think they were telling not "embarassing." To each their own.


See the fine print at the bottom of Kyledane's last post.

[FlashMan]

Originally posted by The Wanderer
I'd give Corrales and Broome a shot at left back. Davis from the Metros should get a chance also.

I don't know if Davis will or should get a chance at left back, but he should definitely be in the sights of da Bruce at some point for somewhere (I can even see him challenging Beasley for the wing spot).

The kid's got game. Presuming his attitude is okay, that guy's got a future.

[wu-tang beez]

I think Davis is a better fit where he plays now, on the left flank. Broome may be fast, but that is his only attribute. Excuse me for wanting a defensive player 1st and a offensive threat 2nd. If 2 guys are essentially equal in marking but one excells on offense, than that should be the deal maker, but the guys who've been mentioned so far on the back aren't the stalwarts of their predecessors.
I watched the burn/stars game last night and I have yet to see anything to refute that while Temoc pushes the ball fwd w/ quickness & skill, is dangerous around the box, is a presence in the air & is a physical man marker, he seems to get lost in the zone & doesn't have enough lateral speed to make up for being badly out of position.
Both the game winner and the later follow up goals can be attributed to his fault-though Jordan looked stiff and should've been able to stop 2 of the 3 goals.
When I watch Garcia, I see the guys he's defending disappear. The same can't be said about Cherundolo, Heydude, or Suarez.
BTW Nelson Akwari has skillzzz, but I think he's too smallish to play for the big team.