September edition - the Ursuline 100

[TheSlipperyOne]

Originally posted by wu-tang beez

He is the all time leading scorer in US history

Eric Wynalda and Joe-Max Moore among others would beg to differ.

Originally posted by wu-tang beez

Yi has no future as a professional soccer player. Sorry.

Apparently Belgian club Royal Antwerp (that has a loan set-up with Manchester United for players) didn't get your email.

[TheSlipperyOne]

Originally posted by GersMan

By that standard, is Kovalenko allowed on here?

Kovalenko isn't an American citizen yet. And he plays way more as a midfielder and not a striker.

[GersMan]

Originally posted by Revs miss playoffs again
Taylor Twellman(NE Revolution) should make Top 20 strikers

he's #2 on the list.

Short Corner - Please, feel free to badger away. While the "five months on loan" concept is not what this (inthat potential doesn't hurt), I still say I want those two more. I recognize this is controversial perhaps to many, clearly to you, and I'm comfortable with that. Disagree to your heart's content and you make good arguments to support your positions.

As long as we remain civil I'm happy to argue back and forth all you want :-) (and yes, you may influence re future lists, as you have done in the past - althoughusually the way it works is I take a closer look at certain players when someone comes on and says they should be rated higher/lower.

[wu-tang beez]

Originally posted by TheSlipperyOne
Eric Wynalda and Joe-Max Moore among others would beg to differ.
Apparently Belgian club Royal Antwerp (that has a loan set-up with Manchester United for players) didn't get your email.

Dario Brose(sp?) played in France, so that means nothing. Yi sucks, you'll see when he washes out 2 the A-league.

Dear '83 Chevette err I mean cavalier,
Those stats prove my position, preki was a great player for his 1st few yrs when he came from the epl. Lassiter scored several goals 4 the nats, but had a hard time staying onsides. He still would've been better than Wegerly. SS had a difficult time evaluating tallent. Arce hasn't been the same since he got accused of gang rape a few yrs back. Then he got bounced around in trades. Moreno has suffered from injuries to himself and his partner Echescary.

Karl I was going to say Kreis would be a perfect fit in the 5 hole behind Mathis and Donovan, but you tried to actually say Jovan, the 2nd most overrated player in the history of American soccer behind Wagner, was a good soccer player. I guess a lack of speed and competativeness don't fit into your equation.

Excuses are like butts, everyone has one and they all.....however, Kreis and Ralston were never given a fair shake while others(wagner, Jovan, mais, deering, lagos, etc) have proven consistently they might be good club players but they choke on the big stage. Kreis was only given run late in the game and then out of position, even playing freakin defender. Ralston also hasn't been given the full 90 & ,when he did, it was in a torrential down pour.

The defense rest your honor.

[Karl K]

Originally posted by wu-tang beez

Karl I was going to say Kreis would be a perfect fit in the 5 hole behind Mathis and Donovan, but you tried to actually say Jovan, the 2nd most overrated player in the history of American soccer behind Wagner, was a good soccer player. I guess a lack of speed and competativeness don't fit into your equation.


I didn't say Jovan was good...I said he was better than Kreis.

This is a distinction with a difference.

Meanwhile, let me repeat: we don't have a hole player on our USMNT because, frankly, we don't have any horses who can play that positon...including Kreis.

The prosecution wins.

[wu-tang beez]

The defense files a motion to dismiss, your honor. The prosecution is badgering the witness and is clearly not competent to represent the state.


JK better than anyone, now that's funny. Jovan is all pedigree, which is great for a dog and pony show, but sorry in the real world. He's never done ANYTHING professionally or internationally and despite his appearance in the champions league, that guy's a spare. It's hard to speculate, but I'd bet JK wouldn't be a top scorer in the league. He looked his best 4 the nats when he played the 10 spot. I think that's his only future since he's totally inept in the target, the slot, or either winger spot. Slow feet, no defense & no fire in his belly add up for a very uninspiring career. He doesn't suck but no one would ever look at that guy and say, "he can make a difference." While Kreis will soon be the all time scorer, JK is an overrated journey man.

The defense calls a suprise witness to the stand, Steve Burlein.
Steve, is true that you were once the starting quarterback for Notre Dame, the Dallas Cowboys, LA Raiders and AZ Cardinals?

[GoHawks4]

As much as I hate McBride, I have trouble saying that anybody on that list should be above him on the strikers list. If anybody, it should be Twellman. It surprises me Cunningham made the Top 10. Ben Olsen should be WAY higher.

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by wu-tang beez




Excuses are like butts, everyone has one and they all.....however, Kreis and Ralston were never given a fair shake while others(wagner, Jovan, mais, deering, lagos, etc) have proven consistently they might be good club players but they choke on the big stage. Kreis was only given run late in the game and then out of position, even playing freakin defender. Ralston also hasn't been given the full 90 & ,when he did, it was in a torrential down pour.

The defense rest your honor.

This argument implies you need rest.

1. Wagner never played for Arena, so who cares.

2. Mais and Deering have nothing to do with Kreis, as Jason is not going to play dmid.

3. Manny Lagos has two caps to his names, compared to Kreis' 14. So how is that Lagos has proven "consistently" that he can't cut it at the international level, but Kreis has not had enough time? Illogical.

Sleep tight.

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by GersMan
100 Best American PRO players right now.

(as always, your feedback is encouraged)

I like the listing of these players, but I don't understand the need to rank them. Especially at this point in time, a list is more than enough. Rankings will come as the games are played.

Just my thoughts.

[Martin Fischer]

Originally posted by Nutmeg


I like the listing of these players, but I don't understand the need to rank them. Especially at this point in time, a list is more than enough. Rankings will come as the games are played.

Just my thoughts.

Because we are bored?

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by Martin Fischer


Because we are bored?

Oh, OK. Carry on...

[Casper]

Originally posted by wu-tang beez
People will ask after we still have yet to lift the cup, why didn't Kreis play for the nats?

People will still ask after Dallas has yet to lift MLS Cup, why couldn't Kreis lead his team to the crown like Donovan did three times?

[appoo]

Originally posted by Short Corner
Gers,

If you were GM for a club that needed cover at amid for the next several months and those 5 players were available, would any stand out as a obvious first choice to seek on loan?


Chung and Martino

[GersMan]

Originally posted by Nutmeg


I like the listing of these players, but I don't understand the need to rank them. Especially at this point in time, a list is more than enough. Rankings will come as the games are played.

Just my thoughts.

It's an important part of my diversion program. :-)

[wu-tang beez]

Originally posted by Casper
People will still ask after Dallas has yet to lift MLS Cup, why couldn't Kreis lead his team to the crown like Donovan did three times?

What the heck are you taling about? He never won the U17, Olympics or WC last time I checked. Donovan has 1 ring for 2k1. Last time I checked, soccer is still a team sport and he had contributions from Ekulund(sp) in that game. Dallas lacked a defensive presence last yr that we now have w/ Morrow and T-bone. Plus Vaca was young and the whole deering/paraja didn't gel. based upon your reasoning Carlos Valderama couldn't hold a candle to Francisco Gomez.
San Jose may yet again win another cup this yr, but it's because of their marking and stellar goalkeeping that differentiates them from the other teams in the west. Lets see how they play on the road.
Jason fits into the slot perfectly, but he's too old now.

[Sachin]

Originally posted by Casper


People will still ask after Dallas has yet to lift MLS Cup, why couldn't Kreis lead his team to the crown like Donovan did three times?

Simple:

http://www.mlsnet.com/content/97/images/mlscup96.jpg

That's why.

And Donovan only has one ring.

Sachin

[Sachin]

wu-tang.. if you want to know why Kreis no longer plays for the Nats, go watch a tape of the Iran friendly from 2000. He missed, by my count, 8 possible shots on net. Not shots that were blocked, but shots that he shanked, shot wide or just plain missed.

Sachin

[kyledane]

A few points:
1. I will renew my disapproval at having Ramiro Corrales listed as a defender. Quakes fans will tell you that any time he spent in defense was due solely to the team's significant injury troubles there (missing Agoos and Dayak for much of this season). His natural position, and where he is found under normal circumstances with the Quakes, is in the midfield.

2. Nick Garcia is placed far too low on the defender list. He certainly should be above the disappointing Danny Califf and the plodding Jimmy Conrad at least. Garcia has now shown the ability to move into central defense, thus increasing his value at the international level, while Califf has regressed and is only a spot starter at present.

3. Another player misplaced is Dema Kovalenko. He may at one time have been a forward, but he certainly does not play there with Chicago. For the Fire he is a central or attacking mid while Razov and Wolff are the forwards.

Along those same lines, I'm also puzzled as to why Landon Donovan is thrown in with a group that is virtually all flank midfielders. It seems to me that some refinement is necessary to keep the midfielders organized in a way that more closely resembles the actual depth charts on the team. I cannot seen Landon Donovan as being in competition with Eddie Lewis for a spot on the US roster, nor can I see Claudio Reyna competing with Richie Williams. My suggestion would be to have three midfield categories: defensive mid, attacking central mid and flank mid.

[Short Corner]

Kyledane posted:

Along those same lines, I'm also puzzled as to why Landon Donovan is thrown in with a group that is virtually all flank midfielders. It seems to me that some refinement is necessary to keep the midfielders organized in a way that more closely resembles the actual depth charts on the team. I cannot seen Landon Donovan as being in competition with Eddie Lewis for a spot on the US roster, nor can I see Claudio Reyna competing with Richie Williams. My suggestion would be to have three midfield categories: defensive mid, attacking central mid and flank mid. [/B]


In defense of Gers, there is no totally satisfactory way to categorize the midfielders under Arena. For much of qualifying, the team played without flank midfielders in a box midfield. But just listing players as attacking or defending mids would not work either: most players seemed to fulfill both roles; only a few, like Armas and Stewart, did not.

The best description here of how things worked then was the "left wing lock" thread, which categorized by the middies defensive responsibilities: there was the Armas position as "destroyer" or "windshield wiper" in front of the defenders; the Stewart position, free to roam and defend as a forward; and two central mids (typically Reyna-Sanneh early, Reyna-JOB later) who closed down the center and forced attacks to the outside. In this scheme, Landon, Clint, and Stewart all competed for one spot in midfield, whether they played mostly wide or centrally, and whether they played mostly off the ball (Stewart) or were expected to be the maestro of distribution in the attacking third (as some envisaged Donovan). "Wingers" who could defend well, such as DMB or Lewis, could play in either the Stewart role, or in the Sanneh role as sidekick to the primary two-way mid (Reyna or JOB).

By the World Cup, Arena was experimenting with different looks, including using players more as true wingers, and this categorization breaks down.

The problem with your categorization is that it suggests Arena will play with a central attacking mid (Landon or Clint?), two wingers, and a dmid. This is clearly wrong so long as Reyna and JOB are the heart of midfield. There are two central mids that everyone else revolves around. Then Arena adds, most often, one dmid and one winger/central attacking mid. In the WC, he at times used two central two way mids and two attacker/wingers. In a 3-5-2, you get an extra pick who could be anything. In effect everyone is in competition with everyone else for playing time, except Reyna and JOB.

So Landon IS competing with Lewis, (until his defense is good enough to fulfill the Reyna/JOB two way role). Indeed, in the WC, both played as wingers; the fact that one is left footed and one right footed made it seem as if they were not in competition for playing time. Gers' categories work about as well as anything would, if you are trying to see who is competing against each other for spots in an Arena midfield.

[GersMan]

kyledane - I understand what you are saying. In addition to short corner's welcome response, I would point out that given my categories, you could have, depending on formation 2 or 3 players from that group starting or playing at the same time. Typically you might see one of them playing behind the two strikers and another on the wing (or one on each wing). At any rate, there is so much variation between attacking players as it is, I think making more categories would just spark more deliberation as to who should be where, rather than talking about the rankings.

Re Ramiro Corrales: Anyone else care to weigh in on this? is he better listed as a central or d-mid?

How about the rest of you on Garcia? I guess my big down on him is my impression that if he were playing in a European league, he would lead the planet in red cards and suspensions (although in saying that I notice I have him below CJ Brown, who be serving time in prison if he played overseas).

Anyway, let me know what you think, and thanks again to all for weighing in on these things.