Tangible vs Intangible, Bobby Convey, MLS, USMNT, and Europe

[appoo]

The sport of soccer has both intangible and tangible aspects. Both are equally important . Examples of Tangible areas of soccer are raw athletic ability, dribbling, crossing, technique, and a player’s general skill and fitness level. Intangible includes anticipation, creativity, decision-making (and how fast they make those decisions), runs, and ability to combine with teammates.



My point in bringing this up is that in Major League Soccer and other lower level leagues players with very good intangible games look much worse than they actually are. While players with very good Tangible games look like world-beaters. . I’m going to use Bobby Convey as an example because I don’t think there’s a better case in US soccer. Later on, I’ll tie in other elite players from Europe and the US Men’s National Team.



Convey’s game is based upon his ability to combine with his teammates, dangerous runs, and every so often beating defenders 1v1. But really his major trait is his ability to anticipate holes in the defense. The way he attacks these anticipated holes is by making a run into them, or quickly passing it off to a teammate and then making the run. In both situations he expects the ball as the hole is opening up. I didn’t get a chance to see the DC United – Metrostars match but I made sure to track Bobby during his first 2 matches. I noticed AT LEAST five times in each match where he would go on one of these runs and he would indeed be in dangerous position but each time either his teamate failed to recognize what he was doing and simply held the ball or recognized what was happening to late and either turned the ball over in trying to get him the ball or held the ball. Unfortunately more often than not the pass would simply not be attempted because his teammate would never recognize the situation, saw it too late, or was incapable of delievering a good pass. When this did happen no one noticed anything because NOTHING HAPPNED. They simply saw a player holding the ball.



Most MLS players are simply not good enough to play Convey’s desired game, and because of this its Convey who looks bad out there. He ends up either disappearing or making aggressive runs into the teeth of the defense. Neither of which amounts to much of anything. It’s my belief that this is why Convey will never be a “great” MLS player.



Who else would suffer from this? IMHO some of the best players in the world would look bad in MLS because they are tremendous intangible players but merely average tangible players. I think Steven Gerrard and Ruud Van Niestelrooy would struggle in MLS because their teammates wouldn’t be capable of doing what’s needed to bring out the Stars’ special talents. While a player like Christiano Ronaldo would look like the greatest player in the world because his game is based completely upon the tangible aspects of the game. He’d simply beat defenders left and right and wow the crowds. Does that mean he’s a better soccer player than Gerrard and RVN? Not at all, it just means that he’s playing in a league that can be exploited by a player like Christiano. Another player who would really struggle would be Luis Figo because he lacks the raw athletic ability to simply dribble around and past defenses.



This is why Bobby looks better on the National team than he does in MLS. There, he has Claudio Reyna, DaMarcus Beasley, and Landon Donovan as his teammates. Players who understand what he’s trying to do and are more than capable of delievering him the ball at exactly the right moment. This is why I have been defending Bobby for such a long time and arguing with those who would look at his MLS game and dismiss him as over-rated. When we argue about the national team we have to take this into account because it matters. And if you think about this it explains many of Bruce’s call-ups. Clint Mathis, Bobby Convey being the prime examples.

[JoseP]

When players are really good you won't have to keep making excuses for them. Unfortunately, outside of the U-20 team, Bobby hasn't done much.

[appoo]

When players are really good you won't have to keep making excuses for them. Unfortunately, outside of the U-20 team, Bobby hasn't done much.
I put forth a thoery on WHY it seems that Bobby hasn't done much. I guess you classify the whole thing as an excuse? Is there any specific reason why you feel my theory doesn't hold water? I'm just asking because its not very conducive to a good debate if you don't respond with some kind of reasons

[GCSOCCER19]

When players are really good you won't have to keep making excuses for them. Unfortunately, outside of the U-20 team, Bobby hasn't done much.

besides show he is possibly the best player in the United States for his age....kid is light years ahead of any A-mid style player at his age than anybody else ever has been in the US Setup with the exception of probably Reyna

Great thread and well put, I completely agree with the opening statement...

[striker]

When players are really good you won't have to keep making excuses for them.

I like this comment!!!! Gerrard (and RVN) struggling in MLS???? If a teammate does not pass him the ball, he would take the ball from his teammate. There is no comparison in the way Gerrard works to make himself available and the way Bobby Convey (or almost any MLS player) does!!

[Deuteriumoxide]

besides show he is possibly the best player in the United States for his age....kid is light years ahead of any A-mid style player at his age than anybody else ever has been in the US Setup with the exception of probably Reyna

Great thread and well put, I completely agree with the opening statement...

Besides Reyna? Despite what we all wish, Claudio Reyna is not an A-mid.

[JoseP]

I put forth a thoery on WHY it seems that Bobby hasn't done much. I guess you classify the whole thing as an excuse? Is there any specific reason why you feel my theory doesn't hold water? I'm just asking because its not very conducive to a good debate if you don't respond with some kind of reasons

Yes, but I've seen much of your postings that I'm doubtful your seeing the same player that I see.

But here goes.

Examples of Tangible areas of soccer are raw athletic ability, dribbling, crossing, technique, and a player’s general skill and fitness level.

Bobby has good athletic ability and fitness. However I think his athletic abilities are mostly limited to north/south running and endurance. I will give you that he is fast.

His dribbling (general skills, too), again, is good, however he is a much better open field dribbler than one in tight conditions.

His crossing is very simply lacking. That, for me, is an area that he mosts needs to improve upon.

Intangible includes anticipation, creativity, decision-making (and how fast they make those decisions), runs, and ability to combine with teammates.

I find it hard to measure anticipation.

I don't see Bobby has having much creativity. He rarely has shown it in his dribbling like a Moreno does. But, then again, perhaps you have specific example of what he has done in this regard.

Bobby's runs always seem to be on the other side of the field from the play. To you and I he is wide open, but playing the ball all the way across does always pay the dividends people think it will.

His ability to connect with teammates again seems to be one of his major weaknesses. I know you want to blame it on his teammates, but Bobby has to be able to conquer this. You play with the same team for 4 years, you've got to start catching up on patterns. He's not doing that.

There you have it.

[UncleSam527]

How people deny that Bobby Convey is currently a very good player, I do not know. The strange thing is, some of these people would be the ones who rarely see him play. Convey should be on the roster for any US game, World Cup or Friendly. Why? The first post said it all: he's got vision and he's dangerous.

I'm not sure about players such as RVN not succeeding in MLS, but one could perhaps use Mathis (when he wasn't playing lazily) in the same context. Even on the nats level, it was/is not rare to see a beautiful Mathis flick-on go no where because his teammates could not anticipate it coming.

[JoseP]

Even on the nats level, it was/is not rare to see a beautiful Mathis flick-on go no where because his teammates could not anticipate it coming.

This where your bias (not just yours, but everybody's, comes into play.) Your man just did an amazing play, but nobody else saw it coming. Well, if they didn't see it coming and it went no where, then it probably wasn't all that great. You can't just be playing the game on your own page, all your teammates have to be there with you.

[onefineesq]

There are very few people who think that he isn't a "good" player. There are a lot of us who think that he is overrated though. Some of us watch him play and see a guy with great fitness, very good speed, tons of hustle, and a nose for the ball. when he has a certain cast of characters around him, he can be disruptive. however, some of us don't see this creativity and vision (in passing especially) that others continue to attribute to him. I guess a guy like me just shakes his head when those 2 words are used about Convey when I've never seen him show that. He is what he is ...... and that's neither creative or visionary. Without either of those two things in an AMID, it is very difficult for me to call that player "great", which is a word that I see bandied about with alarming frequency in regards to Convey.

[Onionsack]

Another player who would really struggle would be Luis Figo because he lacks the raw athletic ability to simply dribble around and past defenses.


Well he may not be a shooting flames out his boots but I have seen this guy make many a defender look stupid with his ball skill and control. Somethimes you don't need to have speed to beat a guy you can do it with great control and misdirection.

I personally think Figo would terrorize most MLS defenders, how well his could link up with his mates is another story ..one your thread goes on to attempt to explain.

[Onionsack]

I find it hard to measure anticipation.




That why its intangable..:)

[forza inter]

When players are really good you won't have to keep making excuses for them. Unfortunately, outside of the U-20 team, Bobby hasn't done much.


ok, come on now....he has played almost every position asked of him on the field for the senior nats. hes so versatile, and hes only 20. come on now, convey is great. i think this season in mls so far he looks a bit tired. and he has a reason: he plays so damn much. he has put in serious minutes for 3 national teams, and mls training/games. the kid(only 20, agian) is so in demand that to say he hasnt done much is silly. yes the u-23's didnt make the olympics, which is sad, but hey, he did his all. playin for the 20's and 23's he played all game every game, except the game before the mexico game for the 23's. and for the senior nats he has been called into every camp and played every game. hes so useful its mind boggling. HES ONLY 20!! we may be forgetting that here and there. this is a kid my age and has done/is doing so much. hes the future of american soccer.



forza inter

[Ringo]

another thread trying to convince people Convey is the second coming? :rolleyes:
I think Bobby's average. You think he's great. Who's right? Who cares? Fact is, he hasn't done enough to prove anybody right or wrong. Here's hoping this is the year we get the answer.
It can be debated on here until we turn blue (and it has been ;) ) but it's time for Bobby to step up and end the debate. Do something, kid.

[SoccerStarved]

We aren't the only people who disagree. It seems that English team that signed him thought he was pretty good. The guys who stamp the work permit didn't agree.

[Sanguine]

I know you want to blame it on his teammates, but Bobby has to be able to conquer this. You play with the same team for 4 years, you've got to start catching up on patterns. He's not doing that.

There you have it.

He shoots, he scores.

[Wahoo]

I think this thread has hit a couple points on the head...
1) Bobby Convey does have some very good skills
2) He often he looks bad because he doesn't "think" the game the same way as his teammates.
3) On the occasions he does get on the same page with others... he looks fabulous (and so do they).

I know of another player who regularly gets the same comments...

(lets see if I can upset everyone with this...)

Could Bobby Convey be the next Jovan Kirovski?

[Ringo]

I know of another player who regularly gets the same comments...

(lets see if I can upset everyone with this...)

Could Bobby Convey be the next Jovan Kirovski?

Hopefully the won't be as upset as when I said that at this point bobby is closer to being the next chris albright than the next landon donovan. :D

[lmorin]

I think this thread has hit a couple points on the head...
1) Bobby Convey does have some very good skills
2) He often he looks bad because he doesn't "think" the game the same way as his teammates.
3) On the occasions he does get on the same page with others... he looks fabulous (and so do they).

I know of another player who regularly gets the same comments...

(lets see if I can upset everyone with this...)

Could Bobby Convey be the next Jovan Kirovski?

This thread is not about Bobby Convey. It is about tangibles and intangibles in soccer player assessment and how they effect a person's play in one context or another. Convey was used as an excellent example. He's not perfect, but unlike many players in MLS, there are substantial changes in his game evident already this year compared to late last season. Remember, he is out of the oppressive DCU atmosphere of last year and in a much more supportive situation. And, I agree completely with ApooOnU that he often plays a mental step ahead of everyone else. That is a major reason he is with the Nats. Just like LD who was frequently reviled on these boards prior to WC02 as being inept, out of position, passing to empty space or what have you. LD had and still has the ability to read the play way beyond most of his teammates. Watch him play with San Jose. I think the team is actually worse with DeRosario on the field because DeRosario chews up so much ball time without getting it to LD who, in an eyeblink, could make something happen. DeRosario doesn't know how to play to LD's strengths. The problem with soccer is that there are no numbers easily obtained to describe the intangible talents. One really easy example is evident when all the opponent's attacks come down one side of the field. A really logical explanation is that the defenders on the other side were so well positioned that no opportunities for attack ever arose. That is not easily measurable, but a good coach can see such quality play off the ball (and, it is usually impossible to see on television as it occurs out of the picture). The coach's biggest problem (a rather fun one, really) is to mix and match the tangibles and intangibles across all the different style players and come up with a successful team. That's not easy.

[smith07]

I have a couple of comments of this subject.
There was a statement saying that he should know how to work with his teammates. Should he not make the best possible run because teammates may not have the football IQ to complete the pass. Mathis shouldn't have made the flick-ons because he teammates weren't good enough. That's garbage. Although neither Mathis or Convey are comparative in their sports to Micheal Jordan, Jordan used to get pissed when his teammates weren't ready for a great pass.
There was also the statement that Bobby has only showed well at the Youth World Competition. That competition should not be looked down upon when the likes of Carlos Tevez among others. He aslo scored 4 goals in olympic qualifying. It seems like landon donavon can find him on those runs. The person stamping the work permit didn't think he was good enough last summer; be willing to eat crow when that changes this summer or next.