What Arsenal need to win in Europe

[topcow]

Morientes!

What are you waiting for, Arsene?

[Gunners11]

The main thing that Arsenal need to win in Europe is not having 4 matches in 9 days. I don't wanna use that as an excuse, but with that many matches in that short of a time, they were bound to lose, unfortunately it was in the CL. Besides that, I think that we could use a more stable keeper, but that's a whole different story.

[yossarian]

The main thing that Arsenal need to win in Europe is not having 4 matches in 9 days. I don't wanna use that as an excuse, but with that many matches in that short of a time, they were bound to lose, unfortunately it was in the CL. Besides that, I think that we could use a more stable keeper, but that's a whole different story.

In fairness, United had to deal with the same kind of fixture congestion (sounds like something you get antibiotics for) when they won their treble in 1999. The way you combat that is with depth....and no, I don't mean that our players should start reading Proust or Sartre...I mean squad depth. Which leads to needing more money, etc., etc., in other words, we may have to wait until Ashburton Grove opens before being able to fully address the issue of squad depth. Rick, Jeff, or Michaec...anyone more familiar with the financial status of the club...please correct me if I'm wrong.

[gunner_21]

Gunners11 and yossarian, I agree with both of you. 4 matches in 9 days is a huge task to handle. Granted Man United faced similar problems in '99, there also has to be a little luck on your side. It just didn't happen for Arsenal this time. Squad depth is another key. I remember last season and also in 2002/03 when we had so many midfielders we had no place to put them! And of course it's tough to spend money when purse strings are tight like now. Don't forget in '99 Bergkamp missed a penalty which surely would've ended United's FA Cup run and they scored 2 goals in 3 minutes to beat Bayern. So while it's wonderful to be a superior club like Man U. :rolleyes: keep in mind that a greater power (God's not a Man U. supporter so it had to be someone else) was on their side.

[yossarian]

Gunners11 and yossarian, I agree with both of you. 4 matches in 9 days is a huge task to handle. Granted Man United faced similar problems in '99, there also has to be a little luck on your side. It just didn't happen for Arsenal this time. Squad depth is another key. I remember last season and also in 2002/03 when we had so many midfielders we had no place to put them! And of course it's tough to spend money when purse strings are tight like now. Don't forget in '99 Bergkamp missed a penalty which surely would've ended United's FA Cup run and they scored 2 goals in 3 minutes to beat Bayern. So while it's wonderful to be a superior club like Man U. :rolleyes: keep in mind that a greater power (God's not a Man U. supporter so it had to be someone else) was on their side.

Oh good grief...now you've done it. Wait for the flood of United supporters coming on here screaming..."it wasn't luck, blah blah blah....Wenger is a whinger..."
I'm kidding, of course. I know what you mean. To do well in tough knockout competitions like the FA or CL, you always need a bit of luck on your side. It doesn't make the titles any less worthy as a team certainly doesn't get that far without also being quite good. Giggs still had to make the amazing run after the Bergkamp miss and Solskjaer and Sheringham still had to find the net in those last few minutes...all examples skill and hard work helping to make your own luck, IMO.

That being said, you cannot control every bounce of the ball. Hopefully, Arsenal will eventually be able to do more about squad depth.

[phishy]

not to put the blame on one person, but i think the answer is a decent goalie...
he fcuked up both chelsea matches and i believe the match in moscow? one of the earlier road soviet games... err.. russian :)
would stack make those same mistakes? I seriously doubt it... i wonder who will be in net next season, it wont be lehmann...

[Achtung]

Oh I won't deny that there was a large amount of, well let's not call it luck, let's say unconventional circumstances, which occured during our run. Yes, a missed penalty as well as Giggsy's wonder goal both figured directly into the outcome that year. Also a team that looked lackluster for the better part of 90 minutes somehow found the back of the net twice in added time, one of those coming from OGS's "couldn't do it again in a thousand tries" shin goal. You absolutely have to have a good deal of "unconventional circumstances" in order to win even one trophy, let alone all three. We were fortunate enough to have those things occur at the very last possible moment, and when they matches they occured in were most visible. We also avoided the injury bug (as Arsenal have done this year), though we were without Scholes and Keane through suspension for the CL final.

So while it might come down to landing Morientes, its really tough to say in any manner what it takes to win the CL. I certainly won't claim to have all the answers, but I think it does indeed come down to a combination of players skilled at possession and defense (continental-syle football), avoiding injuries/suspensions, good squad depth, and yes, lady luck. ;)

[michaec]

To add depth, I'm not sure that we need to buy at the very top end of the market. If we bought a two or three players that cost in total, about £10m-£15m, I'm sure the board could handle that. Alternatively, we have players out on loan such as van Bronckhorst and Pennant who could have done a job. Alternatively again, we could have just taken our chances in these games and we'd still be going for a treble. Man Utd in the Cup semi and Chelsea in the second leg of the Champions League quarter-final should both have been finished off in the respective first halves. The players need to look at themselves and instead of blaming tiredness realise that they had their chances (even though the were apparently tired!), the reason we didn't win was because they didn't take them and aim to do something about it for the future!

[Gunners11]

not to put the blame on one person, but i think the answer is a decent goalie...
he fcuked up both chelsea matches and i believe the match in moscow? one of the earlier road soviet games... err.. russian :)
would stack make those same mistakes? I seriously doubt it... i wonder who will be in net next season, it wont be lehmann...

I said the same thing in my post. It's not to say that Jen's isn't up for the challenge or is a "bad" keeper, but we need someone who is more stable, and stable is not one of Lehman's better qualities, hell, it's not one of his qualities at all.

[yossarian]

Oh I won't deny that there was a large amount of, well let's not call it luck, let's say unconventional circumstances, which occured during our run. Yes, a missed penalty as well as Giggsy's wonder goal both figured directly into the outcome that year. Also a team that looked lackluster for the better part of 90 minutes somehow found the back of the net twice in added time, one of those coming from OGS's "couldn't do it again in a thousand tries" shin goal. You absolutely have to have a good deal of "unconventional circumstances" in order to win even one trophy, let alone all three. We were fortunate enough to have those things occur at the very last possible moment, and when they matches they occured in were most visible. We also avoided the injury bug (as Arsenal have done this year), though we were without Scholes and Keane through suspension for the CL final.

So while it might come down to landing Morientes, its really tough to say in any manner what it takes to win the CL. I certainly won't claim to have all the answers, but I think it does indeed come down to a combination of players skilled at possession and defense (continental-syle football), avoiding injuries/suspensions, good squad depth, and yes, lady luck. ;)

Good post, Achtung. I will say, however, that although Arsenal have done a better job of avoiding injuries this year (sound of knocking on wood) as compared to United, the Gunners haven't been injury free. Vieira has missed many games (saw him get injured at the Newcastle match I attended back at the end of September) as has Freddie. We were also missing Aliadiere to injury and Kanu to the African Cup for a good stretch in Jan/Feb. While neither of those two start regularly, it would've been nice to have them on the bench at least for some of those Carling and FA matches. As I said, it's not the same as missing your best defender for half the season or Ole or Scholes but not exactly negligible either.

[gunner_21]

a young David Seaman. :D

[Coach_McGuirk]

What we don't need is a glut of players who all play the same position and can't get a regular run and take two steps and make sure the ref is looking and then fall as if someone on the pitch performed brain surgery with his boots.

[jegerpenge]

brain surgery with his boots? explain svp.

[Rick B]

In fairness, United had to deal with the same kind of fixture congestion (sounds like something you get antibiotics for) when they won their treble in 1999. The way you combat that is with depth....and no, I don't mean that our players should start reading Proust or Sartre...I mean squad depth. Which leads to needing more money, etc., etc., in other words, we may have to wait until Ashburton Grove opens before being able to fully address the issue of squad depth. Rick, Jeff, or Michaec...anyone more familiar with the financial status of the club...please correct me if I'm wrong.

With regards to the financial status of the club, im only going by what I know from the shareholders report of last Autumn. Because Nike advanced us £50M and with the price of property going up in London faster than we can build the stadium, we are NOT as some people would have fans think in a bad state of affairs. from what I am led to believe, the land we have bought that is going to be sold off to provide Flats (which was part of the deal), we are going to be able to make a very healthy profit on it which wasn't that expected, this is due solely to the crazy London Property Market. The same goes for the flats that will be built from Highbury.
Now from winning the Championship, getting to the Quarters of the Champs League, plus the T.V money (lets face it, nearly every game in the second half of the season has been on Sky in the UK) we should have a pretty sizeable income. Take out of that the fact we will have to pay about £7M from the Reyes deal in the next year, plus the fact we won't get anything back on Wiltord, Kanu, and Gio. (And lets face it, it doesn't look like much will come in from Jeffers and Pennant either). So as for actual Transfer funds, I don't think we have much more than £15M. BUT due to the above players coming off our wage bill (which is low anyway due to the fact that our players arn't greedy B**tards!!) I reckon we have about £150,000 to £175,000 a week in wages to play with. That is why I think we will get Kluivert in on a low fee and around £50,000 a week in wages, plus a right midfielder. Expect also a unknown centre-back to find his way to Highbury (although there are rumours concerning Johnathan Woodgate.....).
But I don't understand why we are all so quick to condem Lehmann. Phishy - sorry, but it was Kiev he made the mistake in which is a Ukranian team. It was cold, the noise was unbearable and all the players lost concentration, only he did it and it cost us the goal. Away against Chelsea, have a look at the re-run of the goal. You will find Campbell exactly the same distance from the ball as Lehman. Lehman looks at Campbell to see if he is reacting, he didn't so Lehman had to come, Sol didn't even try to keep up with Gudjonnson to try to put him off. That goal was Sol's fault. Again in the second leg, Sol is ball watching instead of runninjg with his man. Lehman is the second best goalkeeper in the Prem, I don't see a better one in Europe being available for sale in the summer. I agree he's mad, but he's also a part of the best defensive record in the league.

[phishy]

Phishy - sorry, but it was Kiev he made the mistake in which is a Ukranian team. It was cold, the noise was unbearable and all the players lost concentration, only he did it and it cost us the goal. Away against Chelsea, have a look at the re-run of the goal. You will find Campbell exactly the same distance from the ball as Lehman. Lehman looks at Campbell to see if he is reacting, he didn't so Lehman had to come, Sol didn't even try to keep up with Gudjonnson to try to put him off. That goal was Sol's fault. Again in the second leg, Sol is ball watching instead of runninjg with his man. Lehman is the second best goalkeeper in the Prem, I don't see a better one in Europe being available for sale in the summer. I agree he's mad, but he's also a part of the best defensive record in the league.

I'd rather have Van der Saar, or perhaps Sebastian Frey... who knows, maybe I'm just nic-picking.. we should be delighted to have the season we are having.. i know i am, regardless of our downfalls in teh champions league..
UNDEFEATED IN THE LEAGUE..
I blame Campbell equally on that chelsea goal @stamford bridge.. caught in two minds..

[arsenalgirl30016]

I am in good company then with the ball watching-caught myself doing that in a game last night. Fortunately for me I had some other teammates playing rather than watching and it did not result in a goal! And we were not in the Champions League quarter finals either........me and Sol with the same problem-imagine that!

[michaec]

But I don't understand why we are all so quick to condem Lehmann. Phishy - sorry, but it was Kiev he made the mistake in which is a Ukranian team. It was cold, the noise was unbearable and all the players lost concentration, only he did it and it cost us the goal. Away against Chelsea, have a look at the re-run of the goal. You will find Campbell exactly the same distance from the ball as Lehman. Lehman looks at Campbell to see if he is reacting, he didn't so Lehman had to come, Sol didn't even try to keep up with Gudjonnson to try to put him off. That goal was Sol's fault. Again in the second leg, Sol is ball watching instead of runninjg with his man. Lehman is the second best goalkeeper in the Prem, I don't see a better one in Europe being available for sale in the summer. I agree he's mad, but he's also a part of the best defensive record in the league.After our big love-in last week I have to disagree again. A top class keeper makes the decision to kick those balls into the stand. Kiev, Leeds and Chelsea, if he'd kicked the ball into touch in each case we wouldn't be having this debate. Top level sport is all about making the right desicions, Lemann hasn't shown he has this quality yet.

[Rick B]

After our big love-in last week I have to disagree again. A top class keeper makes the decision to kick those balls into the stand. Kiev, Leeds and Chelsea, if he'd kicked the ball into touch in each case we wouldn't be having this debate. Top level sport is all about making the right desicions, Lemann hasn't shown he has this quality yet.

You know you only disagree for the sake of it...............

Ok leeds as well I'll give you, although Viduka is a scary fella when charging at you. But seriously, im not saying that he hasn't made mistakes. He has. But every player makes mistakes. WE could of won at Newcastle has Henry passed to Reyes instead of going around Given. Do you blame him? No. Because 99% of the time he gets it right. We can all critisize individual mistakes until the cows come home. But you sit at Highbury every game, have you honestly seen a better 'keeper in the Premiership this season? (And yes I was there when Van de Sar was a one man team!) Look at Seaman last year. He made many more mistakes that Jens. We have won the league off the back of a great defensive record. Against Chelsea, there were three or four players in both legs who weren't at their best. I just don't think that the losses can be just attributed to him. I still rate him as one of the top 10 'keepers in Europe, and I don't honestly think we will spend the money to get better.

[michaec]

You know you only disagree for the sake of it...............

Ok leeds as well I'll give you, although Viduka is a scary fella when charging at you. But seriously, im not saying that he hasn't made mistakes. He has. But every player makes mistakes. WE could of won at Newcastle has Henry passed to Reyes instead of going around Given. Do you blame him? No. Because 99% of the time he gets it right. We can all critisize individual mistakes until the cows come home. But you sit at Highbury every game, have you honestly seen a better 'keeper in the Premiership this season? (And yes I was there when Van de Sar was a one man team!) Look at Seaman last year. He made many more mistakes that Jens. We have won the league off the back of a great defensive record. Against Chelsea, there were three or four players in both legs who weren't at their best. I just don't think that the losses can be just attributed to him. I still rate him as one of the top 10 'keepers in Europe, and I don't honestly think we will spend the money to get better.Ah ya big fun bus, you know we're only having a laugh. Maybe a pint after the last game of the season? PM me.

As for your points regarding Jens, I can't remember the last time Seaman kicked the ball into an onrushing forward instead of kicking it out when he had the chance. I admit that his kicking was the first thing to go several years ago, but he had that quality to know when the ball had to go out sideways, even if it was giving the opposition a throw-in near to our goal. At least that gives our defence a chance to get organised.

[Rick B]

Ah ya big fun bus, you know we're only having a laugh. Maybe a pint after the last game of the season? PM me.

As for your points regarding Jens, I can't remember the last time Seaman kicked the ball into an onrushing forward instead of kicking it out when he had the chance. I admit that his kicking was the first thing to go several years ago, but he had that quality to know when the ball had to go out sideways, even if it was giving the opposition a throw-in near to our goal. At least that gives our defence a chance to get organised.

Yeah no probs, that is if I make it back alive after Sunday. Should be a great game if Newcastle do us a favour, but I don't think I'd be able to keep a smile off my face as I walk down Tottenham High Road. And that wouldn't be clever.

Im not going to go through previous season's video's just to prove you wrong, in all honesty I don't either, but then again..... when was the last time that Seaman actually managed to make it past the edge of the Penalty box to get to the ball in the first place. I seem to remember he wasn't a great one for beating forwards to the ball....
I do agree some aspects of his game can and hopefully will be improved (im sure you were swearing at him for pushing Ronaldo over at Villa Park), but I honestly think he has got what it takes to be good enough for Arsenal. Though maybe my judgement is being thrown by the image of 'Mad' Jens doing his forward rolls just before the second half........