Interesting MLS/USL Statistics

[MassachusettsRef]

The Regional Professional Clinic I attended yesterday, which I'm sure that some here have attended earlier this year, produced an interesting segment from Angelo Bratsis about card statistics in the MLS and USL and how it might relate to referee development/instruction and the current state of our professional refereeing corps. Anyway, here are a few highlights that I thought might be worth discussiong:

In all USL games (ALeague, PSL, PDL, W-League) there were just over 3000 yellow cards total. However, there was not a single send off (in 1069 games) for a second caution.

In MLS, there was a total of 41 red cards last year. Of these, 9 were for violent conduct, 8 for serious foul play, and 24 for second cautions (24 for 2CT in about 200 MLS games, but 0 in USL in over 1000 games). There were no red cards for spitting, language OR (more surprisingly) denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity through handling or through a foul. This, despite the fact that the instructors yesterday said there were 'four or five' clear cut DOGSO cases last year that only drew cautions.

In the A-League, there were 15 send offs for language. Compare that to the fact that there were (as mentioned above) no red cards for second cautions in the A-League, and no red cards for language in MLS.

[Statesman]

So I guess that means the USL players are bunch of mouthy brats, whereas MLS players are a bunch of polite brutes? :)

[Ref Flunkie]

So I guess that means the USL players are bunch of mouthy brats, whereas MLS players are a bunch of polite brutes? :)


That would be my assessment from the stats as well. Perhaps MLS players are slow learners too? :)

[Redcard]

i too heard those stats. is it because the refs who do usl games are generally local and want to continue to receive assignments, fearing that send offs for second caution will draw critiscm?

[denver_mugwamp]

I'm curious if this has anything to do with the fact that there are different substitution rules in the A League and, I assume, the rest of the USL. Having 5 subs maybe makes it easier to pull a guy with a yellow before he gets the second one? Just a thought.

[MassachusettsRef]

i too heard those stats. is it because the refs who do usl games are generally local and want to continue to receive assignments, fearing that send offs for second caution will draw critiscm?You could make a case for PDL, where maybe half the referees are Grade 5's, but most of these are National Candidates (in other words, they are being closely watched by USSF, so the teams are a secondary concern).

However, it in no way accounts for PSL or A-League, where all the refs are National Referees and most in A-League are from out of town.


I'm curious if this has anything to do with the fact that there are different substitution rules in the A League and, I assume, the rest of the USL. Having 5 subs maybe makes it easier to pull a guy with a yellow before he gets the second one? Just a thought.This could save some players in a few cases...but no second cautions in 1069 matches?!?!

[billf]

I thought the stats were pretty interesting as well. I heard them a couple of weeks ago. They really blew my mind.

[whistleblowerusa]

I thought the stats were pretty interesting as well. I heard them a couple of weeks ago. They really blew my mind.
It could happen. In my games, both D3 and A-League, you get to see the teams over and over again. This doesn't happen the same way in MLS. In the lower divisions, you get to know players better and can create a different relationship with them. Although the stats give a different impression and Angelo makes it sound as though we are doing something wrong, it really could happen because of the relationship. It's easy to remind a player making a few houndred or less dollars that another caution with the fine attached will take a higher percentage of his salary than an MLS play.
It would be better to compare what happend in WUSA to MLS than the USL.

[billf]

It could happen. In my games, both D3 and A-League, you get to see the teams over and over again. This doesn't happen the same way in MLS. In the lower divisions, you get to know players better and can create a different relationship with them. Although the stats give a different impression and Angelo makes it sound as though we are doing something wrong, it really could happen because of the relationship. It's easy to remind a player making a few houndred or less dollars that another caution with the fine attached will take a higher percentage of his salary than an MLS play.
It would be better to compare what happend in WUSA to MLS than the USL.

That's an excellent point. I wonder what the reaction would have been if this was brought up during the clinic. To me, the more striking stat was that no send off was given for DGF or DGH last year in MLS. I think the USL problem could have been recod-keeping related, at least as far as the PDL and W-League are concerned since they will generally have less experienced referees assigned. Nonetheless, there would be no excuse for that.

[MassachusettsRef]

I'm sorry. I understand your point, whistleblower, that the amount of second cautions can be kept down due to relationships and effective man management. But no second cautions in 1069 matches at a professional level? I just don't buy that.

[whistleblowerusa]

I'm sorry. I understand your point, whistleblower, that the amount of second cautions can be kept down due to relationships and effective man management. But no second cautions in 1069 matches at a professional level? I just don't buy that.
Why not? It could happen. The stats are just stats. They don't give a clear picture as what went on. I can give my actual experiences and use that to determine why I think the numbers are what they are. I also believe that USL doesn't keep good records because I know in one of my games last year I did have a second caution send off.

[MassachusettsRef]

I think we're just on different pages here and approaching the stats with a different philosophy. It obviously can happen--it did. And the record keeping thing is it's own problem (both on USL's side and the referees' side, I'm sure). But just because it can happen doesn't mean it should happen.

I interpret the stats as demonstrating a problem. Sure, occasionally (or perhaps often), it's good to keep a player in a match when he commits a borderline second cautionable offence. But I guarantee that there were some clearcut second cautions that went overlooked in a few of those 1069 games (I can say I've seen some from my experiences as an AR). To go from 0 second cautions in 1069 USL games to 24 second cautions in just under 200 MLS games is a statistic that just doesn't make any sense when you consider that USL is the referee feeder-system for MLS.

One of my guesses for an explanation is that, at the MLS level, referees know their games are being seen by a large audience and they can't ignore a second caution so easily. At the USL level, it's much easier to 'let one slide'. That type of philosophy is unacceptable.

[whistleblowerusa]

I think we're just on different pages here and approaching the stats with a different philosophy. It obviously can happen--it did. And the record keeping thing is it's own problem (both on USL's side and the referees' side, I'm sure). But just because it can happen doesn't mean it should happen.

I interpret the stats as demonstrating a problem. Sure, occasionally (or perhaps often), it's good to keep a player in a match when he commits a borderline second cautionable offence. But I guarantee that there were some clearcut second cautions that went overlooked in a few of those 1069 games (I can say I've seen some from my experiences as an AR). To go from 0 second cautions in 1069 USL games to 24 second cautions in just under 200 MLS games is a statistic that just doesn't make any sense when you consider that USL is the referee feeder-system for MLS.

One of my guesses for an explanation is that, at the MLS level, referees know their games are being seen by a large audience and they can't ignore a second caution so easily. At the USL level, it's much easier to 'let one slide'. That type of philosophy is unacceptable.
Maybe. I do know that my game report went in but where teh numbers wound up who knows. I could have been that only one :D
I do think that there had to be more that didn't make it to the stats that were shown to us. The numbers came from USL. When the game reports go in maybe it's just too easy to make a mistake with the codes.
Another thing that could be happening is that foul recognition is just not where it should be for those officials. I have watched many Referees just not "see" what has happened. You can't caution what you don't/can't see.

[mutinywxgirl]

In all USL games (ALeague, PSL, PDL, W-League) there were just over 3000 yellow cards total. However, there was not a single send off (in 1069 games) for a second caution.

Actually, this is completely incorrect. When I spoke to the league about this, they realized that when the information was passed along, it was misinterpreted. In just the information that I had available for PSL games last season, there were at least 20 2nd card sendoffs. And you know that there would be many more than that in the A-League, PDL and W-League.

I was in an advanced clinic when I first heard this statistic, and I just blurted it out that it was wrong....making the entire room quiet. Needless to say, I had to tell my story.

[Jeff from Michigan]

Well...in my other life, we just got rid of a boss who tended to misuse statistics for his own purposes, so I'm a bit skeptical about taking stats at face value --- or about basing decisions based upon a flawed understanding of what they mean, or the reality that they're supposed to represent.

The disparity cited --- no second cautions in more than 1,000 games at one level, but 24 in 200 games at the next highest level --- is enough to set my antennae buzzing...but to my skeptical mind, the likeliest explanation is that something's wrong with the stats, and they're either inaccurately recorded, inaccurately reported, or inaccurately interpreted. The likeliest explanation that pops to my mind is that USL, in one way or another, has separate statistics for "red cards" and "second cautions"...or simply tallies up the cautions, without further analysis...and that someone looking in the wrong column is making some assumptions that aren't really warranted.

Erusa's report of his own experience suggests that the statistics being used are inaccurate...since establishing one second caution in one match shows that they're not entirely reliable. How inaccurate is a matter of speculation. But...well, garbage in, garbage out.

Now...I'm not going to go back over all 1069 match reports and double-check things, just to prove a point. And if any of us volunteers...I suggest that we may need to help his wife get him out of the house a bit more, since he obviously is in need of intervention. But while it is, I suppose, entirely possible that the USL and A-league players are better behaved, and more likely to mend their wicked ways upon a demonstration of referential resolve, I tend to doubt that the second caution on Erusa's missing match report was the only one.

[added minutes later]: Yeah...and if you think I'm crazy, just ask Mutiny...(she may think I'm crazy, too...but not for this reason)

[MassachusettsRef]

Actually, this is completely incorrect. When I spoke to the league about this, they realized that when the information was passed along, it was misinterpreted. In just the information that I had available for PSL games last season, there were at least 20 2nd card sendoffs. And you know that there would be many more than that in the A-League, PDL and W-League.

I was in an advanced clinic when I first heard this statistic, and I just blurted it out that it was wrong....making the entire room quiet. Needless to say, I had to tell my story.Well that's good to know, and renders my point kind of useless.

It's a little upsetting to know that this was corrected during a past professional clinic and was still passed on to us as fact this weekend. Even if the instructors didn't believe you (which I do, for those of you that don't know Lisa has/had a direct affiliation with USL), they could have at least checked into it.

[mutinywxgirl]

Allegedly the information was supposed to have been passed along, but since the 'presentation' was already created, I guess it was too difficult to go in and change. Anyway......I'm just glad someone else caught that stat. I just couldn't keep my mouth shut! It was actually priceless to have seen the look on the instructor's face. Wish I had a camera right then. LOL

[whistleblowerusa]

Allegedly the information was supposed to have been passed along, but since the 'presentation' was already created, I guess it was too difficult to go in and change. Anyway......I'm just glad someone else caught that stat. I just couldn't keep my mouth shut! It was actually priceless to have seen the look on the instructor's face. Wish I had a camera right then. LOL
See, I knew I was right. :D
If I know that I had one 2nd caution send off then I know that there must have been others.

[Gary V]

Does USL have point accumulation for misconduct? Perhaps if that is so, they do not record a 2nd caution as a red card, so that double points don't accumulate. If the statistics were taken from the accumulation data, they would then be incomplete. Just one possible interpretation.

[whistleblowerusa]

Does USL have point accumulation for misconduct? Perhaps if that is so, they do not record a 2nd caution as a red card, so that double points don't accumulate. If the statistics were taken from the accumulation data, they would then be incomplete. Just one possible interpretation.
Yep they do and you could be right.