Watching Referees

[Rufusabc]

My daughter is still playing so that means I have been watching a lot of games this spring instead of refereeing. Either my wife or I attend the matches, and usually I have been going.

Since my daughter plays with a team at a medium to high level, I sometimes think that the quality of the refereeing will match the quality of the teams.

Let me first single out the Needham Mass Memorial Day tournament as the the best run and best officiated tournament I have been to this Spring! From their appearance to their performance, each crew that handled our club's games was top notch!

But at other places I have been to, the quality of the refereeing has been disappointing. We had matches over the last two weekends where the CR allowed NO contact whatsoever. None. This is u16 girls, mind you, and the slightest of touches was whistled.

We had a match where a red card was issued for "an intent to injure" foul that wasn't even a foul let alone a red card. (I am talking both ways...no sour grapes about winning or losing).

I don't say anything at the site, and I tell my daughter it is part of the game, but is there something that can be done to get those referees to loosen up, and change their ways? Is there something I can do?

The reason I ask is that if I was an assignor (which I'm not) I wouldn't necessarily want to hear from a ref/parent who watched his daughter's team get squeezed, and then sent a note to the assignor about the ref.

If you are an assignor/instructor, does that ever occur? I'm not looking to fry the CR only to "HELP" him maybe get better.

Or do I just chalk it up to the rub of the game?

So, my question is would you ever send a note to an assignor about something you have seen (not as a member of the crew...that's a different issue) but as a parent.

I have seen some really strange stuff this year, and a lot of it is preventable, but I no more want to walk up to an AR after the match is over to tell him that his idea of allowing the center to decide whether or not the offside positioned player was active or not wasn't really the reason to pop the flag. I don't think I would want a parent/ref to walk up to me after the game is over to tell me I was doing things incorrectly. But, if a ref is CLEARLY not doing his job properly, how do the folks who assign him ever get the feedback?

If you are a coach/ref, have you ever sent in something to an assignor?
If you are a parent/ref, have you ever sent anything in to an assignor?

I love feedback about the matches I do (ego gratification!!), and I also want to get better. But, if no one is watching or if no one is saying anything to you, can you possibly get better?

A lot of us to get assessed regularly on this board, but the majority of the refs in this country don't. Is there a way to politely get some feedback to the right people so that the referee, the next time, doesn't have the same problems either in the way he interprets the laws or allows the game to breathe?

Rufe

[JoseP]

I am in the same boat as you as a ref with a daughter who plays u-16 at a high level.

There are refs who seem to look at the girls' game differently. One camp seems to think girls don't foul at all and others who think any and every contact needs to be called. But, overall, I'm generally impressed the way the refs do their job. And yes, I've seen bizarre calls. I've seen a ref blow the game over just as the ball was going into the goal (tied game.) Too many times I've seen them call offside without concurrence from the AR (it pisses me off when I AR and they do this.) And one time my daughter was in a one on one with a goalie and the ref called a teammate trailing her about 5 yards offside.

I might pop off a few words, but, as a rule I'd keep quiet. If the coach wants to complain he has that right. While you may be impartial in your complaints, it isn't going to be received that way.

[2wheels]

I love feedback about the matches I do (ego gratification!!), and I also want to get better. But, if no one is watching or if no one is saying anything to you, can you possibly get better?

As many others before me have expressed it in their way, loosely translated it comes down to:

Pride is an essential quality
When one likes what one does, one does not need any other motivation

Receiving feedback (officially or otherwise) is just dandy, even from peers, let alone officials with higher grade and experience.

I had read about an excerpt from a former SDA, Mr FG Alvarez (http://d2sra.org/assess/index.lasso) (NorCal), that highlights a couple of major caveats in receiving feedback:
the point of view (perspective) opening lines of communication with positive remarks

intechpc also astutely sums a similar sentiment up in the sig about keeping on learning (!!)

As you have already done, adapting techniques from watching other referees conduct their game-plan helps a lot in preparing your mindset and making your game-plan.

[okay, I am off to whistle while working; today mens action, indoors, so I now make adequate preparations for staying un-lynched, if thats the word I am looking for.]

[NHRef]

You bring up a tough point. As a parent there is NO WAY you should say anything to the ref crew. The assignor, probably not, unless you already have a relationship with him.

Whether you believe it or not, as a parent there is a good chance you are viewing the game with some level of bias. I know the assignors I work for will dismiss parent comments.

As a coach I have given assignors feedback, both good and bad, on refs. However I also ref for the assignor. I do know of one case where my feedback was acted on with the result being the SDI ended up calling the ref to make sure he knew what he did wrong. The main problem in that case is that my team had 5 refs as players and they all picked up on the CR making up a restart and getting it 100% wrong. This lead to other issues for the CR due to a lack of faith in his decisions from that point forward.

[intechpc]

My rule when watching a match as a parent is simple, there are only two things I'll say to the referees and only if the situation permits. First is thank you for your effort today (regardless of how I feel they performed) and if I do feel they performed well I'll tell them so. That's it. Now if I do have a specific problem with something the referee did, I may point it out to the coach and let him decide how he wants to handle it, but that's it. I can tell you right now, I'd not be very appreciative of a parent coming over and telling me how I can improve my game (even if they identify themselves as a referee) so I wouldn't do that with anyone else.

[Rufusabc]

so....NHRef...how do the referees get better, and how do we prevent them from what another board calls "stupid ref tricks".

And I'm not talking about situations where the angle is different or where it effects the outcome of the match or a penalty not given. I'm talking about simple basic mechanics and foul recognition. And as I said previously, I could care less about what team it is ocurring against.

So, assignors have absoultely no clue whther or not the team they send out on any given weekend does a good job?

[campbed]

so....NHRef...how do the referees get better, and how do we prevent them from what another board calls "stupid ref tricks"...


Yikes.

I think Assignors DO have a clue about MOST of the crews they send out into the breach. Yes, if a new crop of 8's come out, who knows what is about to happen.

Spectator Parents have no roll in making referees better. Strike that, if parents would just keep their comments to intechpc's thanks for coming out, or good job, referees would get better. How you say, because the ones that get scared off by "stupid parent tricks" might actually be around TO get better.

In our state, there are multiple paths for referee feedback. Our travel level leagues have official mentors and the league, assignor, coach, and referees themselves can ask for mentoring and evaluations. Here is a referee mentor example for one league: http://tinyurl.com/lw85ma. This same league has coach referee performance feedback form they can submit EVERY game. Example here: http://tinyurl.com/ndud6d. So the assignor, referee mentors, coach feedback, on the field crew mentoring within the crew, and manadatory referee training are the paths to improvement.

Whoa, I'm carrying on and need to stop. :rolleyes:

So when you put your parent hat on, be just that, others like coaches/assignors/mentors/SYRA's are working to improve the referees.

[refontherun]

My rule when watching a match as a parent is simple, there are only two things I'll say to the referees and only if the situation permits. First is thank you for your effort today (regardless of how I feel they performed) and if I do feel they performed well I'll tell them so. That's it. Now if I do have a specific problem with something the referee did, I may point it out to the coach and let him decide how he wants to handle it, but that's it. I can tell you right now, I'd not be very appreciative of a parent coming over and telling me how I can improve my game (even if they identify themselves as a referee) so I wouldn't do that with anyone else.

I have had too many parents/coaches approach me or make comments during a game saying they are referees, but their interpretation of the even the simplest of concepts in the LOTG are blatantly incorrect. I just kind of nod and say to myself "whatever" and disregard their comments hoping they never work any of my daughter's games.

My daughter plays select/travel soccer as well. Most of her games that I attend are the local ones conducted by referees that I know and work with regularly, so I can usually predict what to expect from them even before the match even begins. I will generally greet them before and after the game, and share comments if they are requested. Rarely, if ever, do I say anything to the referees during the game unless it is in good spirits.

Occasionally, other team parents, knowing that I'm a referee, ask what I think about many of the referees' decisions, or their performance as a whole. It is sometimes a slippery slope. I want to give the other parents the right information without openly criticizing the referee team. At the same time, if they are blatantly wrong, I try explain what the correct procedure is and still point out how little impact many incorrect decisions have on the game overall. I also try to stress to them how bias and perspective affect judgement.

[Rufusabc]

I am in total agreement with you guys on the game or post game approach, but if no one says anything to anyone do we still get referees who approach a u16 select game like it's u9, and can't judge a player who may be in an OS position but is not involved with the play? Or we get refs who show up late or ill attired or worse are just bad?

You may have a different opinion than me, but I really don't like watching matches that are poorly referreed (and again...I could care less if my daughter's team advances or not...as I have seen too much travel soccer in my day). I'm talking about the basics....showing up, keeping up with play...putting in the effort. If the assignors keep assigning these guys to better matches, what does that say for the guys who are trying to break through and get the better games?

I have never spoken to a referee after a match, and I am not going to start now. I just let it go. But, how do we get the guys who can't do it off the field? Or can do it with a little more help?

The things I have seen this spring are mind boggling.

[snolly g]

i think keeping mum is probably most sensible, but it's tough when you know that this ref is going to be at your games in the future.

if you absolutely have to say something, it may be best not to mention at any point that you're a referee. i definitely wouldn't offer suggestions. but if i ever confronted a ref, i'd approach as if i were seeking clarification.

e.g., "hi ref, i hope you don't mind my asking, but we were having a discussion in the stands, and we were wondering if you could help us clear it up."

it's not a direct critique. it's fairly innocuous. but it will do at least two things:
1. clear up what he saw that you maybe didn't, and
2. possibly get the ref thinking about how he handled the game.

[Rufusabc]

In our state, there are multiple paths for referee feedback. Our travel level leagues have official mentors and the league, assignor, coach, and referees themselves can ask for mentoring and evaluations. Here is a referee mentor example for one league: http://tinyurl.com/lw85ma. This same league has coach referee performance feedback form they can submit EVERY game. Example here: http://tinyurl.com/ndud6d. So the assignor, referee mentors, coach feedback, on the field crew mentoring within the crew, and manadatory referee training are the paths to improvement.


Does it happen often? I have been doing this for awhile now and I've never seen it done in my state. In fact, in NJ, we have a vacant SRA for the last two years at least.

[dadman]

Occasionally, other team parents, knowing that I'm a referee, ask what I think about many of the referees' decisions, or their performance as a whole. It is sometimes a slippery slope. I want to give the other parents the right information without openly criticizing the referee team. At the same time, if they are blatantly wrong, I try explain what the correct procedure is and still point out how little impact many incorrect decisions have on the game overall. I also try to stress to them how bias and perspective affect judgement.As a parent whom other parents would approach (while the coach is coaching) to ask about a referee's call-or-non-call—or even more general questions—this is the line I always toed. I never criticized the referee during play or after the game. I would actively quash dissent among the kids, the parents, and especially the assistant coach (one of those "I'm a ref and that's bullshit" guys :rolleyes: ) during and after the games too, always emphasizing the difficulty of the job, the common misunderstandings of the laws, and the humanity of the person out there or running the line. One thing they seemed to understand: Weekly variations if the referee team are just like weekly variations in field and playing conditions. :)

Again, I'm no ref, but your jobs are hard enough as it is. You don't need someone you don't know to come up after you've put in 90 minutes of running—and only have 5 minutes to get to the next field over to do it again—to point out your errors.

Now, a little Q&A after the last game of the day over a cold beverage out in the parking lot with someone you know? Different thing entirely... ;)

[jayhonk]

Rufus, I would go against the grain and suggest you email the assignor. A short note can't hurt (can it?). Make it clear and to the point. The assignor can read it and do whatever he wants with it. Maybe he gets back to the ref and tells him to consider loosening up at U-16, maybe not. Either way, at least he is aware of your opinion.

[campbed]

In our state, there are multiple paths for referee feedback. Our travel level leagues have official mentors and the league, assignor, coach, and referees themselves can ask for mentoring and evaluations. Here is a referee mentor example for one league: http://tinyurl.com/lw85ma. This same league has coach referee performance feedback form they can submit EVERY game. Example here: http://tinyurl.com/ndud6d. So the assignor, referee mentors, coach feedback, on the field crew mentoring within the crew, and manadatory referee training are the paths to improvement.


Does it happen often? I have been doing this for awhile now and I've never seen it done in my state. In fact, in NJ, we have a vacant SRA for the last two years at least.

I'm not an assignor, so I don't know.

I AM a mentor for this league, and have been sent on two missions by the assignor. One to monitor a game and report on coach conduct that was brought up as a concern by another coach. One to officially evaluate/mentor a referee who requested it. In both cases, you would not have known I was there, on purpose (except for the mentor request).

I was where you are now 5 years ago. My solution was to become a referee myself (and to get my lazy son's butt off the couch :rolleyes:).

State Referee teams are always concerned about the referee pipeline and quality. If the pipeline is not full, then the assignors are left without much to work with...

I think the appropriate issue is not how to I fix this under performer, but why are there not 5 up and comers bumping this one out? Where are they (I don't want to be yelled at by an adult), or where did they go (I got yelled at by an adult)?

[NHRef]

so....NHRef...how do the referees get better, and how do we prevent them from what another board calls "stupid ref tricks".

And I'm not talking about situations where the angle is different or where it effects the outcome of the match or a penalty not given. I'm talking about simple basic mechanics and foul recognition. And as I said previously, I could care less about what team it is ocurring against.

So, assignors have absoultely no clue whther or not the team they send out on any given weekend does a good job?

I never said nobody gives feedback, I said as a parent it's probably a bad idea, UNLESS you have a relationship with the assignor.

I've coached, parented and ref'd in many of the same areas as campbed. The one I coach in has the following available to coaches:
- ref review forms to submit to the ref assignor
- league discussion board where they can ask questions
- coach can request a mentor/review of a ref

Additionally
- refs can request mentors be assigned with them
- there's a group of mentors that are told to "mentor" whenever we work and turn in mentor forms on the refs. I know for a fact these are used to assign, or unassign future games for the mentored ref.
- SYRA is new to the role this year and has been making the rounds during the spring season.

There are MANY ways refs are identified, good and bad, worked with and advanced, or not, based on feedback.

Parents, even those of us parents that are refs, should just cheer on the kids, as a general rule. However there are some exceptions:
- do you know the refs very well? if you have a relationship with the ref it might be used to get a message across.
- do you know the assignor?

Just cold calling an assignor or walking up to the ref team is a loosing proposition. If you see something that you feel really needs to be addressed, the best bet is to run it through the coach, he probably has an official avenue to pursue it

[DWickham]

I agree with NH Ref.

Coaches coach, referees referee, assessors assess.

Parents support their kids. I learned the hard way that children understand (often better than we do) that everyone makes mistakes and it doesn't matter. They need to know the parents are there to support them regardless of the outcome. I still recall my son at 13 telling me, "Dad, I know you know what you are talking about, but shut up." (I now giggle when I hear teenage players saying the same thing on the field about their parents.)

When we are present as a parent or fan, it may make us feel better to complain about the referee, but your information doesn't change anything. We have a clear bias that makes your report of little use to the assignor, no matter your skills and experience. The assignors get lots of feedback from the teams and coaches and from other referees who they assign to the match team.

There are several referees in my area who are really good referees, but really bad spectators. Their reputation as referees are adversely affected by how they participate when they are not the officials. While complaining won't help the referee, it might hurt the complainer.

YMMV

[Rufusabc]

I think folks are missing the point here.

I'm not looking to complain, I'm looking to help.

If the AR who THINKS that by raising his flag when he sees a player in an OS position (who is not active) he is making the correct call is NEVER told otherwise, what do we have?

We have too many games and not enough folks out there. The answer is not to sweep it under the rug, but to be proactive about it.

I'm not talking about game changing things, but simple stuff. And if no one is around to correct it, we just let those folks go at it.

So, the answer is I watch, and nothing is said or done.

My main league in NJ actually did away with coaches evals of refs three years ago. So much for that route.

I get it guys, I don't like it, I think it's wrong not to have some avenue to tell someone about it, but I appreciate the feedback.

[NHRef]

I get it guys, I don't like it, I think it's wrong not to have some avenue to tell someone about it, but I appreciate the feedback.

I 100% agree with this last statement (in fact I agree with your entire post). However, what should be done about it is what I think we are discussing. Having a parent walk up to a ref after a game with any type of advice is not a good idea. First off the ref has probably heard the "I'm a ref to you know" statement from parents, how many of us haven't?

If the league has no mechnism to officially turn in the statements, then you do have an avenue. The ref assignor, you are a ref correct? if so, he should know your name and should put some, possibly little, but some credit to your email or phone call. If you structure it that here are a few things I noticed that someone should address with this ref, it might be usefull, it might be ignored.

You will never know until you try it. There must be a feedback mechanism somewhere, official or not, there's assignor, SYRA, SDI etc all who should care if they have refs on the field making mistakes like you mention.

[Rufusabc]

Thanks for the give and take.

It boggles my mind that we spend 4 hours a year in recert classes and then we go out and do our matches and then no one says a word to us.

I worked with an AR two months ago who was very good. But mid way through the second half he was trying to get me to restart an IFK for the attacking team inside the goal area from the spot of the foul. Where could he have possibly picked that up from? He kept telling me I could move the ball to the spot of the foul, and I politely told him, no, it goes on the line.

But, he is going to be the center in a game where that call is made and he is going to put that ball where the infraction was and someone will score and then the protests will be forthcoming. I told him where to find the material but I don't think he owned the book.

I am sure we have all been there with this, and as a watcher of games it just absolutely drives me crazy that the ref will do the same thing next week and the week after that.

I like watching soccer matches. I will watch practically anything. I watch the skill of the players and the skill of the ref team and I can tell in 5 minutes or less what type of game it is going ot be. I'm sure you can too.

I'm not looking to get anyone in trouble, I'm just looking to help the guy who has a difficult job.

R

[intechpc]

Rufus, a couple thoughts come to mind. First of all, if you do have a relationship with the assignor in the area I don't think it would be a problem for you to contact him with feedback as long as you approach it from the right perspective.

However, don't assume that the assignor isn't doing anything about it either though. Good assignors will make sure that younger referees work with more experienced referees as a way of getting them some form of mentoring. Ultimately the best forms of training are to see how someone else does it and be forced to do it yourself. The particular match you mention in your OP sounds like maybe they were scraping together a crew and had to put less experience on the game than perhaps they normally would. That happens sometimes too. The Assignor may be aware of that issue and just had no other choice.

I've been assigned as AR on matches where the assignor specifically told me he wanted me to help mentor the CR. Personally, I think it's one of the best ways for young refs to learn. You are right though, unless you're involved in State Cup or other tournaments with on-site assessors, there's a certain amount of hands-off once you finish the clinic for the year.