Chad Marshall Red Card

[Crewster]

In the Crew-KC game last night Chad Marshall was shown a red card. He was in the offensive penalty area waiting for a free kick to be served in. The defender - I forget who it was - in order to prevent him from heading the ball, had both arms around his waist holding him down. Chad, no doubt frustrated because this sort of thing has been going on all season, and hasn't been called a single time, kneed the defender in the groin. This was observed by the center ref, Toledo, who showed a straight red.

No one I know of has disputed that the card was deserved. But what the heck is he supposed to do in this situation? Just about any movement he makes to the ball could be called a foul on him. If the ref can see the knee to the groin, why couldn't he see the holding?

In the Chivas game earlier this season the defense basically tackled him on every corner kick. I don't want to see a PK given on every corner kick, but doesn't MLS have to do something about this sort of thing?

[DadOf6]

In the Crew-KC game last night Chad Marshall was shown a red card. He was in the offensive penalty area waiting for a free kick to be served in. The defender - I forget who it was - in order to prevent him from heading the ball, had both arms around his waist holding him down. Chad, no doubt frustrated because this sort of thing has been going on all season, and hasn't been called a single time, kneed the defender in the groin. This was observed by the center ref, Toledo, who showed a straight red.

No one I know of has disputed that the card was deserved. But what the heck is he supposed to do in this situation? Just about any movement he makes to the ball could be called a foul on him. If the ref can see the knee to the groin, why couldn't he see the holding?

In the Chivas game earlier this season the defense basically tackled him on every corner kick. I don't want to see a PK given on every corner kick, but doesn't MLS have to do something about this sort of thing?

Holding in MLS is permitted, or so it seems. I understand not calling it if both players are into it or if the attacker is trying to play through the foul. But I see centerbacks body up and grab the attacker from behind and the attacker cannot do anything about it. I've asked players if they were fitting the attacker for a bra or if they were copping a feel (I'm pretty loud when I use my 3' megaphone from the front row). They do NOT like hearing that.

[vetshak]

It isn't just MLS... watch any Premiership game and on at least 75% of the CKs somebody is getting mugged.

I would love to see a Directive on this next year, cracking down on that kind of behavior. I agree... Marshall had to get a red, but to allow the kind of behavior that led to his knee-to-the-groin without any kind of punishment just seems weird.

I know we don't want to go about handing out PKs for everything, but allowing players to wrap their arms around an attacker... exactly what good are we doing the game?

[PVancouver]

Chad, no doubt frustrated because this sort of thing has been going on all season, and hasn't been called a single time, kneed the defender in the groin.

It is possible that this is what happened but it looked like to me that Marshall deliberately kicked Aaron Holhbein in the lower leg/ankle. I believe the knee to the groin was a mischaracterization of the play by the commentator.

I know we don't want to go about handing out PKs for everything, but allowing players to wrap their arms around an attacker... exactly what good are we doing the game?

Obviously, if PKs were frequently called for this then it would occur much less often.

[Ref Flunkie]

Obviously, if PKs were frequently called for this then it would occur much less often.

Agreed, but the problem is, it can't just be one referee...everyone needs to start cracking down on this or it will never be solved (and more than likely the ones that do start to call it will not see many future assignments).

[kevbrunton]

It is possible that this is what happened but it looked like to me that Marshall deliberately kicked Aaron Holhbein in the lower leg/ankle. I believe the knee to the groin was a mischaracterization of the play by the commentator.

Watch this replay and it looks pretty clear he gets him full in the nads...

http://mfile.akamai.com/11504/wmv/mlbmls.download.akamai.com/11504/2009/open/mls/2009/06/06/mls_rresrc_4914733_400K.wmv

[Lighting Guy]

Watch this replay and it looks pretty clear he gets him full in the nads...

http://mfile.akamai.com/11504/wmv/mlbmls.download.akamai.com/11504/2009/open/mls/2009/06/06/mls_rresrc_4914733_400K.wmv


I would agree. Well done by the referee for catching that.

[Sport Billy]

I would agree. Well done by the referee for catching that.

Agreed. Grabbing never justifies violent conduct.

[Crewster]

Agreed. But a good referee would have seen and called the hold that prompted the violent conduct before it happened.

[boylanj64]

Agreed. But a good referee would have seen and called the hold that prompted the violent conduct before it happened.

Not if the league doesn't want it called. It's not the referees fault he kneed him in the groin; I'd say that goes a bit beyond typical frustration. Believe me, when players are being held, they feel free to let you know.

[DadOf6]

Agreed. But a good referee would have seen and called the hold that prompted the violent conduct before it happened.

Although you agree that VC has no place in soccer you are still laying blame on the referee for a player's action.

Look at the whole play. Where do you think the referee should have most of his attention?

That is the kind of misconduct that is easy to miss. The ref should be watching the cross and where the cross will land, while being aware of what is going on elsewhere.

There are unique issues involved when calling fouls in the area. The attacker was fighting through the hold until it became obvious that he was not going to be able to make a play on the ball. In this case a referee is well-advised to hold off on the whistle. Suppose the attacker were to have escaped the hold?

There is nothing more embarassing for a ref than disallowing a good goal because he was to quick to blow his whistle.

I did that once. The foul was terrible and deserved a send off. The attacker went down on both knees and was falling forward but somehow he pushed himself back up and kicked the ball past the 'keeper. It was one of the most miraculous goals I had ever seen.

Problem was I blew my whistle when I saw the attacker going down. My thinking was that I had to get right on top of it to keep things under control.

The players knew why I did it. There was no dissent. I show the red card, point to the spot, get the ball out of the net, and walk it to the spot. The attacking team just stood silently and watched.

It was a lonely walk.

At least they made the PK.

Ever since then I have waited a couple counts before blowing for a foul in the area.

[oldmanreferee]

Agreed. But a good referee would have seen and called the hold that prompted the violent conduct before it happened.

Crewster
if we go by your thought process, then why have you not brought up that the other marshall from seattle should not have been sent off, but the player from crew should have been since he hit Marshall in the upper body face area 1st?
It is a tough decision and until the league says "referee teams call the PK or Call the hold coming out" and we have a game with 5 PK and 4 red cards for DGSO we will not stop it or until the players police themselves. we as referee's are hand cuffed because as we all know WHO WILL THE BLAME BE PUT UPON????
If any of you were around in the late 80 and early 90's if you remember the uniforms NC state worn, tight form fitting uniforms. That would prevent some of this Holding. AS well as the player keeping there shirts in
Just my opinion
http://assets.sbnation.com/imported_assets/18454/chris_corchiani_unitard.jpg

[Crewster]

Regarding "the other Marshall", I don't think anyone saw the first contact or it would have been called.

Regarding the other comments, if the ref saw the knee to the groin, he had to have seen the holding. So the correct decision would have been to both show the red card, and award a penalty kick for the foul.

[MassachusettsRef]

Regarding the other comments, if the ref saw the knee to the groin, he had to have seen the holding. So the correct decision would have been to both show the red card, and award a penalty kick for the foul.Er, what?

Why does it follow that if a referee saw the knee to the groin, he had to have seen the holding? Pay attention the referee's field of vision.

Moreover (and more ridiculously) how on earth does an off-the-ball hold warrant a red card? I mean, penalty kick "maybe/yes," if you believe the incident rises to the level of a foul in that game. But red card?!?!? On what planet?

[bluedevils]

Sounds like Crewster meant show ONE red card and also call the PK for the original foul, NOT show a red card for the original foul (holding by defender).

The latest 'hip' thing for referees to do seems to be holding up a corner kick or free kick near goal, going to the penalty area and demonstratively telling / showing the players to knock off the holding/grabbing/pushing/etc.

A couple years ago, it seemed like that maneuver was somewhat effective for referees. Nowadays, it seems like a complete and utter waste of time. I.e., players resume their same routine of holding/grabbing/pushing as soon as the referee has finished his 'warning.'

[oldmanreferee]

Regarding "the other Marshall", I don't think anyone saw the first contact or it would have been called.

Regarding the other comments, if the ref saw the knee to the groin, he had to have seen the holding. So the correct decision would have been to both show the red card, and award a penalty kick for the foul.



My point exactly you "claim" the referee saw the hold.... I could "claim" the assistant referee saw the same thing we all saw on this forearm shiver to the back of the head Lenhart head.

and to have a penalty kick would mean that the corner kick actually took place. And I think you have to deal with this incident before the ball get's put into play. If i remember the ball has to be in play for a foul to happen.

[DadOf6]

and to have a penalty kick would mean that the corner kick actually took place. And I think you have to deal with this incident before the ball get's put into play. If i remember the ball has to be in play for a foul to happen.

There was action before the kick but he WAS being held while the ball was in play. Calling a foul would not have been a mistake (if he had seen the foul).

In my experience a ref can "deal with" stuff before the kick but it resumes as soon as he reteats back into position.

[DadOf6]

if the ref saw the knee to the groin, he had to have seen the holding. So the correct decision would have been to both show the red card, and award a penalty kick for the foul.

I agree with the conclusion but I cannot say that if he saw the knee that he must have seen the hold.

First of all the attacker blocked the ref's view of the defender so much of what the defender was blocked. It makes it worse because the ref would have been focusing on the kick and the drop zone. The foul was in his peripheral vision.

Have you ever been driving down the street and been jolted into awareness that a car, or a bike, or something was approaching you form the side? There was lots of stuff happening to your side but all of that was filtered out. But the one unusual thing just jamped out at you and you slammed on your brakes and avoided the collision.

It's happened to me many times.

Similar things have happened to me on the pitch. I've missed the foul but caught the retaliation many times. It's a Tom Jones thing ("It's Not Unusual"). Something unusual happens in the peripheral vision and when I focus on the area I see the retaliation.

This in NO WAY this was the ref's fault. And to say that the ref MUST have seen it and not called it is laying blame on the referee.

[MassachusettsRef]

Sounds like Crewster meant show ONE red card and also call the PK for the original foul, NOT show a red card for the original foul (holding by defender).You're right. I mistakenly read it to say "show both" rather than "both show." My fault, Crewster.

The latest 'hip' thing for referees to do seems to be holding up a corner kick or free kick near goal, going to the penalty area and demonstratively telling / showing the players to knock off the holding/grabbing/pushing/etc.

A couple years ago, it seemed like that maneuver was somewhat effective for referees. Nowadays, it seems like a complete and utter waste of time. I.e., players resume their same routine of holding/grabbing/pushing as soon as the referee has finished his 'warning.'Agree 100% with this.

[bluedevils]

Have you ever been driving down the street and been jolted into awareness that a car, or a bike, or something was approaching you form the side? There was lots of stuff happening to your side but all of that was filtered out. But the one unusual thing just jamped out at you and you slammed on your brakes and avoided the collision.

It's happened to me many times.

Similar things have happened to me on the pitch. I've missed the foul but caught the retaliation many times. Something unusual happens in the peripheral vision and when I focus on the area I see the retaliation.

This is very common in basketball as well. Commentators point out all the time that the players must realize that the official will often catch the retaliation but not the original violation.