The Core Players

[appoo]

Landon Donovan
DaMarcus Beasley
Pablo Mastroeni
Oguchi Onyewu
Carlos Bocanegra
Steve Cherundolo
Clint Dempsey


-----

I don't care who the manager is, after 2006 these were the guys US Soccer was going to sink or swim by. These were the veterans, the ones who've been through 1 or 2 World Cup cycles, these were the guys our younger generation of players would look up to.

So, against Costa Rica. Landon Donovan, DaMarcus Beasley, Pablo, Boca, and Dempsey were beyond bad. They each had personal horror shows. Onyewu was barely better and Cherundolo has major injury problems. The sneaking thought in my brain right now is that I've always known this was going to be the norm for all the players except for Donovan and Gooch. The signs were there, and I just ignored them. I thought Beas could re-invent himself as a LB, I thought Boca would eventually learn how to calm himself down as a central defender....

at this point, I think I know it's not going to happen, and that the hints I've ignored, aren't just hints - but reality.

So, I think US Soccer has hit a crisis point, and it's not about management - It's about the players. We have one group that I'm pretty sure simply lack the neccesary talent to get us to where we want, and we have a generation of players that I'm pretty sure have more than enough talent, but lack the neccesary experience at both club and international level.

Is there a solution? Or are we going to have to simply take our lumps?

[Nutmeg]

I think your premise is flawed. First, it doesn't include Tim Howard. Second, it does include DaMarcus Beasley, Pablo Mastroeni, Carlos Bocanegra, and Steve Cherundolo. I know managers who wouldn't play any of those guys, and they're in your "core" team. Seriously.

BigSoccer has basically fallen into two camps:

A) Bob Bradley is getting about what any manager could out of this group.

B) Another manager could take our playing pool and do better.

Sounds like you're in Group A. Not me. And here's the thing. There is no upside to being in Group A. You're resigned to believing we are going to lose. Call me the eternal optimist, but I refuse to believe that.

I believe that with an upgrade in coaching talent, this version of the US can get out of the Group Stage in the World Cup. Here's specifically what a coach needs to do better:

1) Quit forcing square pegs into round holes. Quit putting our players - specifically our best players - in positions where they can't take advantage of their strengths and where their weaknesses are exposed. The Torres, Beasley, and Boca trifecta is a PRIME example of this type of managerial snafu.

2) Identify the strengths of the lineup and build on them. Donovan was outstanding as a left mid in Poland and against T&T. Build on that. Altidore was fantastic as a finisher. Build on that, don't ask him to play with his back to the goal. Dempsey is an outstanding linker, a good defender, and goal poacher in the world's best league. Build on that. Put him in a role that gives him those primary responsibilities. Our team's strength SHOULD BE defensive shape and organization. Get back to that. Then build on it.

3) Don't be afraid of the kids. I've been a fan of the US Soccer Team a long time. Guess who usually lets the US down? It is typically the vets. And it has historically been the cocky, don't-give-a-shit kids who have been the sparkplugs in our program. I'm not just talking about Adu - although once again he showed he is singular in our player pool. I'm talking about the kids performing well in MLS, too. We built 2002 on the back of MLS. Where's Chad Marshall? Have you seen Stuart Holden? I think you mix experience and youth where possible, but at the end of the day, pick talent first. Always.

4) Adjust. We could use some help in in-game management.

[JcUSA]

Landon Donovan
DaMarcus Beasley
Pablo Mastroeni
Oguchi Onyewu
Carlos Bocanegra
Steve Cherundolo
Clint Dempsey


-----

I don't care who the manager is, after 2006 these were the guys US Soccer was going to sink or swim by. These were the veterans, the ones who've been through 1 or 2 World Cup cycles, these were the guys our younger generation of players would look up to.

So, against Costa Rica. Landon Donovan, DaMarcus Beasley, Pablo, Boca, and Dempsey were beyond bad. They each had personal horror shows. Onyewu was barely better and Cherundolo has major injury problems. The sneaking thought in my brain right now is that I've always known this was going to be the norm for all the players except for Donovan and Gooch. The signs were there, and I just ignored them. I thought Beas could re-invent himself as a LB, I thought Boca would eventually learn how to calm himself down as a central defender....

at this point, I think I know it's not going to happen, and that the hints I've ignored, aren't just hints - but reality.

So, I think US Soccer has hit a crisis point, and it's not about management - It's about the players. We have one group that I'm pretty sure simply lack the neccesary talent to get us to where we want, and we have a generation of players that I'm pretty sure have more than enough talent, but lack the neccesary experience at both club and international level.

Is there a solution? Or are we going to have to simply take our lumps?

Do you honestly think if Guus Hiddink was the coach on Saturday the same thing would have happen?

[JohnR]

I'm pretty sure have more than enough talent, but lack the neccesary experience at both club and international level.

The first three guys on your list had little collective experience entering the 2002 World Cup, and acquitted themselves very well. So I suspect that if the younger players have the talent that you think they possess, they will do fine in 2010.

Every manager faces the possibility the year before a World Cup that a previously reliable veteran who had been inked into the lineup won't be good enough when the Cup rolls around, and must consider whether to replace him with an up-and-comer on short notice. Bob would seem to have more such possibilities than most, however.

[slitz]

B


let the kids play

[Marko72]

DMB and Cherundolo are no longer in that group. It's very arguable as to whether or not Mastro is. Tim Howard is definitely a member of that group, perhaps the single most indispensible one. Bradley is now a part of that group. There are a number of younger players that have been slowly developing toward becoming a member of that group, but none save Bradley have really become one just yet (though a year still remains for a guy like Altidore or Torres, etc).

[ty webb]

100% correct Nutmeg. I have been firmly in group B for two years.

The CR game simply highlighted many of Bob's flaws.

[FirstStar]

Think we are slated to take more lumps this WC. We'll qualify for South Africa- I'm still betting money on that. We just don't have "proven" options to go on the field.

Since I'm pretty certain that Bob won't get fired until late June 2010, here's my wish for him:

Dear Bob,

Please make friends with a good manager with a very good team somewhere that pays no attention to US Soccer- so anywhere in Europe or a top coach in South America. Ask them to give you an honest outsider's opinion of the US player pool- A team, B team and fringe players. I think you've lost perspective on this and I wonder what a fresh look might tell you. Maybe you are just stuck with our "core" players (although DMB MUST be dropped) because the talent isn't there elsewhere. Maybe there really is room to make changes. I don't think we know right now and I think you would benefit from some outside perspective right now.


PS - I personally don't think the talent is there yet and I don't trust players that aren't fighting hard at clubs and winning playing time (although Jozy keeps proving me wrong on this, so talent clearly helps).

[KALM]

I think some of you skimmed over part of Appoo's post. There's a reason he didn't include Howard or Bradley.

[Marko72]

Do you honestly think if Guus Hiddink was the coach on Saturday the same thing would have happen?

Quite possibly. Of course there really is no telling.

In my book, since qualifications began, Bob has 3 strikes in 2 matches against him, two somewhat minor and one major. The minor ones would be starting Kljestan over Mastroeni at El Salvador and leaving Spector on the bench and off the roster entirely at El Salvador and Costa Rica respectively, when we've got serious FB issues. The major one would be that absolutely silly by-BigSoccer-consensus 433 (with the exception of flip-flopping Donovan and Altidore in the 1st half, which even the most deluded fan would not have hoped for).

Anyhow, in answer to the OP, we're probably going to have to take lumps in 2010, hoping for something more than expectation (which wouldn't too greatly surprise me, but I'm pretty much expecting 1-3 points at this point in the game), get the hiring process right this time around after the summer of next year, and move forward with the new core of the team, which will probably still include a few of those mentioned up top (ie Howard, Donovan, Dempsey, Onyewu), but will mainly become a team about guys like Altidore, Bradley, Edu, Torres, possibly Adu, etc.

[ty webb]

B

Our coach is WAY over his head. Tactically, player selection, during the game management, etc...

I would like to hear Nowak's honest assessment of the situation.

[appoo]

I think your premise is flawed. First, it doesn't include Tim Howard. Second, it does include DaMarcus Beasley, Pablo Mastroeni, Carlos Bocanegra, and Steve Cherundolo. I know managers who wouldn't play any of those guys, and they're in your "core" team. Seriously.

BigSoccer has basically fallen into two camps:

A) Bob Bradley is getting about what any manager could out of this group.

B) Another manager could take our playing pool and do better.

Sounds like you're in Group A. Not me.

Nope. I'm not in either. I think he could have done a far better job of making adjustments, and his substitutions were terrible IMO, but....

Do you honestly think if Guus Hiddink was the coach on Saturday the same thing would have happen?

He would have lost. Maybe done better, but the result would be the same

The first three guys on your list had little collective experience entering the 2002 World Cup, and acquitted themselves very well. So I suspect that if the younger players have the talent that you think they possess, they will do fine in 2010.

Every manager faces the possibility the year before a World Cup that a previously reliable veteran who had been inked into the lineup won't be good enough when the Cup rolls around, and must consider whether to replace him with an up-and-comer on short notice. Bob would seem to have more such possibilities than most, however.

Coming into 2002, we had Claudio Reyna, John O'Brien, Brad Friedel , Eddie Pope, and Brian McBride. Donovan, Beasley, and Mastro were not there to provide leadership and stability. They were the role players to support the Core players.

Yea, every manager has faced that....but IMO this US side utterly lacks Veteran leadership.

We're in an almost impossible position where we have guys who probably aren't ready yet, who may have to lead this team.

Asking any manager to turn the leadership reigns over to players like Adu, Jozy, Torres, Edu and Bradley is no easy thing to do - not when those players themselves are replacing players they've looked to for leadership

[MLSNHTOWN]

Injuries happen. The issue is more the lack of preparations for the players that we all knew would have to step in when these players got hurt/injured or their form slipped.

1. Should Wynne have had more prep before being dropped into Saprissa?
2. Should Torres have had more PT with the US before being inserted into the starting lineup.
3. Should Altidore have had more PT before starting?
4. Should we have had forwards with more PT generally ready in case something like this happens (see Cooper, Casey, Adu, Davies...all should have had more games under their belt.)

Ultimately, we wasted so many caps. So many opportunities to have backups more developed and ready than they were on Wednesday. Wednesday we paid the price a bit.

[ty webb]

Yea, every manager has faced that....but IMO this US side utterly lacks Veteran leadership.

We're in an almost impossible position where we have guys who probably aren't ready yet, who may have to lead this team.

Asking any manager to turn the leadership reigns over to players like Adu, Jozy, Torres, Edu and Bradley is no easy thing to do - not when those players themselves are replacing players they've looked to for leadership

Interesting question but we do have:

Howard
Gooch
Boca
Dempsey
Landy
Heydude
Ching
Beasley - although he should not be on the field right now

Who all play a lot under Bob. Many of these players are very good players, and guys like Howard are vocal and seem to lead the squad very well.

I think the bigger issue is we don't have good management/leadership from our coach.

[FirstStar]

We're in an almost impossible position where we have guys who probably aren't ready yet, who may have to lead this team.

Asking any manager to turn the leadership reigns over to players like Adu, Jozy, Torres, Edu and Bradley is no easy thing to do - not when those players themselves are replacing players they've looked to for leadership

If this is true, then the best thing that can happen is for USSF to tell Bob NOW that he's getting fired next June, even if he wins the WC (we can always reconsider if he makes the semi-finals, but I don't think we need to worry about that).

Why is that good? Because then he can feel free to drop the "eek out a win now and save my job" mentality and play younger players with more of a future. Bob may be a so-so coach, but I think he's a pretty damn good talent scout. He stuck with his son in the face of a lot of criticism and, despite some up and down performances, Mikey probably has the second-highest ceiling of anyone on the squad (after Jozy) right now.

Maybe the best we can hope for is to use 2010 to build for 2014.

[Mr Martin]

So, I think US Soccer has hit a crisis point, and it's not about management - It's about the players. We have one group that I'm pretty sure simply lack the neccesary talent to get us to where we want, and we have a generation of players that I'm pretty sure have more than enough talent, but lack the neccesary experience at both club and international level.

Is there a solution? Or are we going to have to simply take our lumps?

It isn't a crisis point, but the team is still in the middle of a transition period, with a very gifted, historically deep younger generation not quite ready to lead, but hopefully able to supplement the veteran core.

In 2002 the newbies filled in valuable supplemental roles (Donovan, Mastro, Beasley, O'Brien, Mathis) and the veteran core lead the team (Friedel, Pope, Sanneh, Hejduk, Reyna, McBride, Lewis, Wolff, Berhalter). It all came together at the right time.

In 2006 neither the newbies (Johnson, Convey, Onyewu, Dempsey) nor the veterans (Keller, Mastro, Cherundolo, Reyna, Beasley, Donovan, McBride, Bocanegra, Obrien) really played strong, consistent roles. It was a collective mediocrity.

2010 is up for grabs. Will the vets lead (Donovan, Beasley, Boca, Onyewu, Dempsey, Howard, Cherundolo)? Will the newbies be effective supplements (Altidore, Bradley, Edu, Torres, Adu, Kljestan, Davies, Spector). Will it mesh? I really don't know. But the most logical prospect is that the current veteran core isn't mentally strong enough to lead the 2010 team, and the youngsters, while able supplements like the 2002 newbies, are not quite ready to fill the leadership gaps this cycle.

I will root for the 2010 team until the last seconds. But if I were a betting man, I'd focus on the 2014 Cup for measurable progress. We will have a very deep core of prime age players, probably the deepest and most professionally accomplished ever by then. Today's kids will be the vets in 2014, and we will have enough of them that even if a few fizzle and cannot lead, there will be other veterans ready to step in. We don't have that today.

[appoo]

3) Don't be afraid of the kids. I've been a fan of the US Soccer Team a long time. Guess who usually lets the US down? It is typically the vets. And it has historically been the cocky, don't-give-a-shit kids who have been the sparkplugs in our program. I'm not just talking about Adu - although once again he showed he is singular in our player pool. I'm talking about the kids performing well in MLS, too. We built 2002 on the back of MLS. Where's Chad Marshall? Have you seen Stuart Holden? I think you mix experience and youth where possible, but at the end of the day, pick talent first. Always.

4) Adjust. We could use some help in in-game management.

If you look down, I've noted that turning this thing over to the kids is probably a smart move. But it is not my ass on the line, and turning your future over to a bunch of you 20somethings very early in thei club careers is incredibly risky. More than anything, this is a function of Donovan, Dempsey, Mastro, and Boca not being able to fulfill the intangible roles that Reyna, Pope, and McBride fulfilled in the past.

I've never seen the US team go into a straight panic like they did against El Salvador and CRC when something bad happened. IMO - that's a function of on field leadership.

[Nutmeg]

Managers don't get paid to make the easy or least risky decisions. They get paid to make the right ones. And in good organizations, they get fired for making the wrong ones.

I absolutely agree that in this period of transition, some of the "vets" haven't shown the mettle we would want from our field leaders. The failure would be to continue to hope against evidence they someday will.

[appoo]

If this is true, then the best thing that can happen is for USSF to tell Bob NOW that he's getting fired next June, even if he wins the WC (we can always reconsider if he makes the semi-finals, but I don't think we need to worry about that).

Why is that good? Because then he can feel free to drop the "eek out a win now and save my job" mentality and play younger players with more of a future. Bob may be a so-so coach, but I think he's a pretty damn good talent scout. He stuck with his son in the face of a lot of criticism and, despite some up and down performances, Mikey probably has the second-highest ceiling of anyone on the squad (after Jozy) right now.

Maybe the best we can hope for is to use 2010 to build for 2014.

It isn't a crisis point, but the team is still in the middle of a transition period, with a very gifted, historically deep younger generation not quite ready to lead, but hopefully able to supplement the veteran core.

In 2002 the newbies filled in valuable supplemental roles (Donovan, Mastro, Beasley, O'Brien, Mathis) and the veteran core lead the team (Friedel, Pope, Sanneh, Hejduk, Reyna, McBride, Lewis, Wolff, Berhalter). It all came together at the right time.

In 2006 neither the newbies (Johnson, Convey, Onyewu, Dempsey) nor the veterans (Keller, Mastro, Cherundolo, Reyna, Beasley, Donovan, McBride, Bocanegra, Obrien) really played strong, consistent roles. It was a collective mediocrity.

2010 is up for grabs. Will the vets lead (Donovan, Beasley, Boca, Onyewu, Dempsey, Howard, Cherundolo)? Will the newbies be effective supplements (Altidore, Bradley, Edu, Torres, Adu, Kljestan, Davies, Spector). Will it mesh? I really don't know. But the most logical prospect is that the current veteran core isn't mentally strong enough to lead the 2010 team, and the youngsters, while able supplements like the 2002 newbies, are not quite ready to fill the leadership gaps this cycle.

I will root for the 2010 team until the last seconds. But if I were a betting man, I'd focus on the 2014 Cup for measurable progress. We will have a very deep core of prime age players, probably the deepest and most professionally accomplished ever by then. Today's kids will be the vets in 2014, and we will have enough of them that even if a few fizzle and cannot lead, there will be other veterans ready to step in. We don't have that today.

Mostly agree with you guys. Definite void with what the vets should be providing.

Optimistically, I still think Donovan can fulfill a bigtime Veteran's role. I still think we can build a side around him...but I think Bob is going to have make incredibly difficult choices regarding the other vets.

[moytoy12]

Injuries happen. The issue is more the lack of preparations for the players that we all knew would have to step in when these players got hurt/injured or their form slipped.

1. Should Wynne have had more prep before being dropped into Saprissa?
2. Should Torres have had more PT with the US before being inserted into the starting lineup.
3. Should Altidore have had more PT before starting?
4. Should we have had forwards with more PT generally ready in case something like this happens (see Cooper, Casey, Adu, Davies...all should have had more games under their belt.)

Ultimately, we wasted so many caps. So many opportunities to have backups more developed and ready than they were on Wednesday. Wednesday we paid the price a bit.

Wasted caps, what are you talking about? I mean, we got to see Josh Wolff last summer. :D