Torres and adaptation from Mexico

[Manolo]

Been reading a lot of posts, and I've noted a lot of praise for Torres and his technical skills, and also criticism for his defensive awareness, particularly on the first goal.

A lot of things went wrong Wednesday, and I like most others agree that there were some serious tactical and player selection mistakes, starting off with playing a 4-3-3 on the road in a WC qualifier :eek:!

But my observation is with regards to Torres, because his attributes as a player are so clearly and typically Mexican-Latin American yet he’s playing on a largely Anglo-influenced team. Done correctly, this could be a formula for great success. However last night you could see that there are gaps in his reading of the game versus the others.

On a Latin American club team, it is not really everybody's responsibility to defend. Your creative mids and forwards are mostly there to get the ball from the defenders and defensive mids. In this sense, they are specialists, focused on their role, and let others do theirs. I would argue this is one reason that Latin America produces so many quality creative midfielders and attackers.

In the U.S. game, influenced largely by northern Europe, the standard is that everyone needs to be involved in defending, and even the forwards should apply pressure to the defenders to get them to make mistakes. Midfielders are all required to take a substantial defensive role. This is always one of the biggest "adaptation" problems Latin American players face when transferred to European clubs.

I think Torres faces a huge contrast when he plays with the Nats versus Pachuca. He typifies the Mexican style of play that we all know - crisp, short passing, and ball control. However, frankly, I think he will always be a liability on defense unless there is a specific tactic designed to account for his defensive responsibility. This is not currently in place, and I think it was foolish in thinking that we would be all-out attack against Costa Rica. Given that we found ourselves losing at halftime, I am certain this is the reason that Bob took him off, because as well as he was doing on the ball, Klejstan offers a more mixed approach to midfield.

I don't know what this means for Torres, but in honesty, given our historical style of play and the tactical mentality of the majority of the players, who are from MLS and northern European club teams, I think it's a difficult transition, and his best role is that of a super-sub playing the last 30 minutes when we need possession and/or creativity.

[InJax]

Agree to a point. Torres is someone that I think would benefit greatly from going overseas to another style of play. It will help his defensive skills and round out his game.
So many of our "anglo" players lack real touch (Beasley :eek:). They would benefit going to Mexico to learn how to trap the ball.

[KALM]

Whenever I've watched Pachuca play (admittedly, not often), they've employed something like a 5-3-2, which ends up providing a lot of defensive cover for Torres. And his role is an odd one, because even with that cover, his responsibilities are more about possession and less about driving at goal.

[nobody]

Torres in some ways reminds me of Reyna. He's great in possession and makes good linking passes. But, he's not really much in the tackle and he's not really an offensive guy in the sense that he won't force the issue. I'd like to see him hanging around the middle of the field holding and distributing while Bradley does the leg work and tackling. It could be a nice combination of one fiercely combative type who runs his butt off, Bradley, paired with a guy who's going to slow things down a bit and help us retain possession. I still think you'd have to get most of your penetrating attacks from your wide mids since I really don't think Torres has shown himself to have the drive to penetrate too often centrally. But, it could be a fairly solid central midfield tandem to build around.

[DaPrince84]

yay... more stereotyping!

[CheveLoco]

That's right, in Pachuca he has never been "the guy behind the attackers" like it was already said his role is not "always going for the net"....it is very different in the US compared to Pachuca, in Pachuca he does have to defend more(at least compared to what i saw in the CR game) even defenders like Montes and Paul Aguilar attack more than Torres.

Maybe it's just his style of play compared to the american style, this was my first game watching Torres play in the USMNT and it looked like he didn't fit in there. With more games he will get a better idea of how he needs to change his style to better fit his NT needs.

[TrueCrew]

When I saw the personnel grouping for the Costa Rica game, I though it was a 4-5-1 with Torres as a CAM, I thought ESPN was all looney for thinking we'd paly 4-3-3.

But this would have worked much better:

-----------Howard----------
Wynne--Gooch--Boca--DMB
-------Bradley---Pablo------
Dempsey---Torres---Donovan
------------Altidore----------

Plus, I think playing the 4-3-3 also was confusing for Bradley and Mastroeni who are used to the 2 CM system, and all of a sudden we had 3. Plus, there would have been more cover for our wingbacks, and less space for the opposition.

I think this kind of set up, 4-5-1, is the ideal situation for Torres to be effective with the Nats. I'd assume we'd employ it vs. teams that are a bit tactically superior (Brazil, Italy, Spain, etc) or on the road in qualifiers.

[Manolo]

yay... more stereotyping!
Call it stereotyping or whatever you wish...it's plain to see and right in front of our faces. Are we going to deny the obvious stylistic differences between different regions and the way they play? I'd rather not get into that type of discussion but the fact that differences exist is a basic premise of the original post.

[Raulduke]

The US's greatest defficiency has always been and remains to be having enough players with good technical skill. Torres has more technical skill than almost any other US player. Why he isn't playing every match is beyond me.

[TrueCrew]

The US's greatest defficiency has always been and remains to be having enough players with good technical skill. Torres has more technical skill than almost any other US player. Why he isn't playing every match is beyond me.

Watch the defense on CR's first goal.

And, because BB is too dumb to put him in a position to succeed, which would be:
a) As a CAM in a 4-5-1/4-2-3-1
b) As a AM in a diamond 4-4-2. (Which we never play).

[BS49]

The US's greatest defficiency has always been and remains to be having enough players with good technical skill. Torres has more technical skill than almost any other US player. Why he isn't playing every match is beyond me.

I think it depends on what style such team plays. It is like the saying that we always want what we don't have and don't appreciate what we do have. Just look at Mexico, they have very technical players but struggle when playing quick physical teams like the US and play good against teams with similar style like Argentina and Brazil. I bet they want more physical players specially up front.

I think Manolo has a good assessment in that certain players fit certain styles better and that different regions play different styles. Just look again at Mexico and Sven, he tried to implement a more quick and physical Euro style and it could not work with the Mexican players.

[soccerfan]

Whenever I've watched Pachuca play (admittedly, not often), they've employed something like a 5-3-2, which ends up providing a lot of defensive cover for Torres. And his role is an odd one, because even with that cover, his responsibilities are more about possession and less about driving at goal.

was Tab Ramos, Hugo Perez defensive players NO they were actualy our best ever playmakers something that we miss very much. I think a good coach can turn this team around using Torres as our playmaker. I was very impressed by him. He has the skill and the vision passing that no other american player has. So yes i dont want him defending i want him creating.

[Grumpy in LA]

was Tab Ramos, Hugo Perez defensive players NO they were actualy our best ever playmakers something that we miss very much. I think a good coach can turn this team around using Torres as our playmaker. I was very impressed by him. He has the skill and the vision passing that no other american player has. So yes i dont want him defending i want him creating. I think you're mostly right, but I don't think Torres is completely unique in skill and vision. I think Donovan's comparable. Adu doesn't yet show the vision consistently, but I think if he could get steady playing time he'd demonstrate it. But Torres' abilities are definitely rare in the US pool, and I hope that Bradley will find some way to take advantage of them.

[Blustar]

I think you guys are out of your mother ********ing minds if you think Torres has more technicall ability and passing skills than Freddy Adu, seriously you guys make me sick.

Here we have a decent Mexican player who has never done shit for American soccer with the same damn liabilities as Freddy and you want to cover for him so he can go create????

But we can't do the same shit for a player even more talented and gifted!!!???


WTF !!!! people get your heads out of your asses man, goes and throws up...:(


Did you guys miss the U-20 WC where Adu was on display as one of the best players in the world?

I don't get you guys sometimes man... players like Torres are a dime a dozen in SA countries and MExico, they excel in the short passing game and have skill on the ball but are not very athletic. Torres is a good player but he's not special in any way, not yet at least.

Adu has shown much more in his career and flashes of brilliance that defy belief (like his move in the Brasil game)

I would like either Torres or Feilheiber in the middle and Adu as a withdrawn forward but I think Benny fits our style better and Torres could be used as a second half sub just like he does in Pachuca.

[Kqql]

^^^

:eek:

[tsaldana3]

http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh475/cramex3/facepalm.gif
....

[Kqql]

yay... more stereotyping!

I agree ..............

USA didn't lose because of Torres...........
.

[jd6885]

I think in a sense, Torres's 'problem' is a lot like Feilhaber's.

Feilhaber was doing great on the team before, strictly playing as a creative midfielder, then it seems he was forced to track back more and 'add more defense' to his game. Because of this, he tended to disappear in some games. The coaches were making him adapt to their style of play, but he's at his best when you just let him be creative.

Historically, it does seem American coaches tend to not know how to properly use creative players like Benny and Torres...instead, they just suck their creativity from them.

[papermache16]

I think in a sense, Torres's 'problem' is a lot like Feilhaber's.

Feilhaber was doing great on the team before, strictly playing as a creative midfielder, then it seems he was forced to track back more and 'add more defense' to his game. Because of this, he tended to disappear in some games. The coaches were making him adapt to their style of play, but he's at his best when you just let him be creative.

Historically, it does seem American coaches tend to not know how to properly use creative players like Benny and Torres...instead, they just suck their creativity from them.

Well, would you revolve your entire 11 around one or two players? How could you make that work?

I guess that's the coach's job, something we can agree Bob hasn't done a good job with. For example, how are you going to integrate Adu into a system that heavily relies on its flanks for offense (both wings and outside backs)? Do you change your entire gameplan for one player? Do so, and then players like Hejduk, Beasley, even Donovan, start to suffer, since their strengths aren't really with the midfield game.

[woodwork]

This thread brings up a lot of the important issues concerning the central midfield.

Adu, Feilhaber, and Torres are the three most technical and creative players on the team. However, each of them has physical and defensive limitations to a certain extent. So the question becomes how to best integrate them into a team concept.

Against top teams, in order to create going forward and maintain possession, two of these guys need to be on the field. Covering for them defensively, you could have either Bradley or Edu. On the wings and pinching in when appropriate you could have Dempsey and Donovan. Up front, Altidore.

The best thing that could happen to the national team is for Feilhaber and Adu to stay healthy and get serious, consistent playing time with their clubs this upcoming season.