The 4-3-3 and Wynne

[moytoy12]

After sleeping a little bit on this, I'm waking up this morning to realize just how bad B. Bradley left Wynne out to dry. I'm not excusing Wynne's performance, but I do think he did some things well. He had no chance to succeed. At least Beas had Torres and Donovan (maybe once or twice) to help him.

The 4-3-3 theoretically put Mastroeni and Dempsey in front of Wynne on the right side. However, Mastroeni was in the center of the pitch for the most part and I rarely saw Dempsey tracking back. How the heck was Wynne supposed to be successful when he was left completely alone on the right side. Not to mention, that if he ventured up on the flank, he left an even bigger hole for Gooch.

I can almost forgive Wynne for being a little lost. I mean, which one of the 3 opposing players was he supposed to mark?

Sure, he had a couple of bad touches, but he had plenty of solid touches and didn't get beat 1 v. 1. I'd like to see Wynne in a traditional 4-4-2 formation where he actually gets some help.

[cpwilson80]

Great post, and was just about to make the same comment in the defense thread.

Wynne did have some positives to build on from last night, and in a way, it reminded me of Cherundolo's initial foray into the pool back in 2001 (though Cherundolo had the better performance.)

Here's what I liked:

- A willingness to attack, both in terms of positioning and his passing
- He has the ability to play our of tight spots along the back with a one-touch pass
- His pace enables him to cover more space on the right

Here's what still needs work:

- He must close down space when the player has the ball at his feet. He allowed far too many crosses in the 30-35 yard range from his side. Most conspicuously, he and Onyewu got beat on the sequence that starting the second goal.
- His spacing relative to the center back. A couple of times on the switch, he looked too far away from Onyewu and this forced him to race in to position to contest the header.

You're right: given his deficiencies on the defensive side, he needs some more help, and a 4-3-3 doesn't give him enough.

Wynne needs to go play somewhere that will force him to develop. His speed and stamina are such that he can compensate for any errors in MLS and not necessarily hurt the team. I want him to develop in to the poor man's Sorin, not a rich man's Hejduk.

[camasterton]

I am not understanding the poor mouthing of Wynne today. For a youngin of his limited caps, in his first trip to that crap track, he played better than damn near everyone in front of him. That 4-3-3 required some help from Dempsey, from Mastroeni... yet was often on his own. Wynne was left cover wide and pinch in yet he still got forward (unlike Beasley) and still linked up with Bradley, Donavan, Altidore with forward moving and imaginative passes (unlike the LBs back passes ad nauseum).

[moytoy12]

I am not understanding the poor mouthing of Wynne today. For a of his limited caps, he played better than damn near everyone in front of him. That 4-3-3 required some help from Dempsey, from Mastroeni... and Wynne was left cover wide and pinch in yet he still got forward (unlike Beasley) and still linked up with Bradley, Donavan, Altidore with forward moving and imaginative passes (unlike the LBs back passes ad nauseum).

Agreed, there was no way for him to be successful in this formation. Same with Beas too. They had NO help out wide. For the most part, Torres and Mastro were playing in the center of the pitch. Donovan, Alti and Dempsey never tracked back to provide help outside. This 4-3-3 was swiss cheese from the get go.

[DaPrince84]

in a 433, the three up top are forwards...

[manutd02]

This is a cop-out. The formation had nothing to do with why Wynne had an awful game. He is the most tactically naive fullback I've ever seen. He relies purely on his athleticism to defend and he got destroyed for it today. Refer to this post I wrote after his game against Sweden in January for more

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=16784657#post16784657

In that game, there was such a mixed review over his performance between those that raved about him and others, myself included, who were not impressed. His positioning defensively is horrid and this time his athleticism didn't make up for it.

He's is not ready for this level and to not have Spector start was a huge mistake.

[moytoy12]

in a 433, the three up top are forwards...

Exactly. That's the prob, they either didn't provide enough defensive help or were instructed not to come back so deep, either way, it screwed the midfield. And the 3 in the middle were Mastro, Bradley and Torres. Now, after watching the game who was playing LM and RM? No one. Mastro and Torres pinched in the middle. So, Beas and Wynne were left with NO ONE in front of them to defend the 3-4 Costa Ricans coming down the flank.

[moytoy12]

This is a cop-out. ...

He's is not ready for this level and to not have Spector start was a huge mistake.

Spector would have been embarrassed out there as well. Tell me, how is this a cop-out? Wynne was sitting there with NO help in front of him. What defender would have done well in that situation?

He has his faults (marking on crosses being the biggest), but he had no chance last night with this formation.

[manutd02]

Again the formation was not the problem. How the players were instructed to play in this formation is the problem. This all comes back down on BB's head and how poorly the team was prepared, but it still doesn't excuse the way Wynne played. The midfield 3 should play tucked in in this formation and play almost as 3 CM's who shift side to side as a group to defend the wide areas in support of the fullback who should be defending the opposing teams winger. That clearly didn't happen. The midfield 3 were never connected as a group and as a result we were shredded in midfield.

Now while this would obviously have helped Wynne, it still does not fix his glaring lack of tactical understanding. Again, he relies purely on his athleticism to make up for this lack of understanding and today he got punished.

[DaPrince84]

Exactly. That's the prob, they either didn't provide enough defensive help or were instructed not to come back so deep, either way, it screwed the midfield. And the 3 in the middle were Mastro, Bradley and Torres. Now, after watching the game who was playing LM and RM? No one. Mastro and Torres pinched in the middle. So, Beas and Wynne were left with NO ONE in front of them to defend the 3-4 Costa Ricans coming down the flank.
no

a the 3 up top are forwards

the 3 in the center are central mids...

the midfield did not help out the fullbacks like they should have...

[manutd02]

Spector would have been embarrassed out there as well. Tell me, how is this a cop-out? Wynne was sitting there with NO help in front of him. What defender would have done well in that situation?

He has his faults (marking on crosses being the biggest), but he had no chance last night with this formation.

Then he shouldn't be playing as a fullback. If you can't defend in an isolated situation you have no business being out there. See my above post about the formation. He was indeed without much help but that's besides the point. If he had a clue how to position himself he wouldn't have been burned nearly as many times. The problem is that he doesn't. He has no idea.

[6 ft. Leprechaun]

in a 433, the three up top are forwards...

True, but in games that I've seen where the 4-3-3 is deployed, the wingers have some responsibility to come back and defend on the wings.

[moytoy12]

Then he shouldn't be playing as a fullback. If you can't defend in an isolated situation you have no business being out there. See my above post about the formation. He was indeed without much help but that's besides the point. If he had a clue how to position himself he wouldn't have been burned nearly as many times. The problem is that he doesn't. He has no idea.

This makes zero sense. If you can't defend 3 guys, then you shouldn't be playing fullback...? huh?

Wynne had his probs and I readily admit that, but he also had zero help. The formation completely hosed our outside backs. You even admit that the outside backs were screwed.

[Maitreya]

Spector would have been embarrassed out there as well. Tell me, how is this a cop-out? Wynne was sitting there with NO help in front of him. What defender would have done well in that situation?

He has his faults (marking on crosses being the biggest), but he had no chance last night with this formation.

This discussion touches on a hard issue to deal with from a philosophy of soccer analysis standpoint. Let's say Spector starts at right back and plays pretty well in a US victory on Saturday. Does that mean he is the better player than Wynne, or did he just benefit from a less difficult situation? Dealing with this has to be difficult for national team coaches in particular.

The last time Wynne got thrown into the fire was the Argentina game in Copa America 2007. He got beat a few times, but I think most of us felt it was an okay performance considering the circumstances. Then he did not play against Paraguay and Colombia. If Bob's reaction then is an indication of how he will change things on Saturday, I wouldn't at all be surprised to see Spector (of course a fit Hejduk will start).

[DaPrince84]

True, but in games that I've seen where the 4-3-3 is deployed, the wingers have some responsibility to come back and defend on the wings.
I didnt say they shouldnt... but Landon and Clint should not be on the defensive side of the field helping out the defense...

Mastro, Bradley, and Torres failed the fullbacks more than Dempsey and Donovan

[J. Arthur]

I re-watched only the first half so far, but I thought Wynne's part of the field was the real weakness, besides the blunders leading up to the first goal.

Defensively, as has been said, Mastroeni and Bradley were in the middle, and Dempsey (playing as a forward) only occasionally dropped back into the defensive half to support. This left Wynne alone and constantly pulled Gooch over to cover, leaving him out of his natural position. On most occassions, with the exception of the second goal, Gooch covered very well.

Offensively, no midfielder really took responsibility for the right side. On the left, Beasley and Torres were able to possess the ball through simple passes and combine with Bradley, Donovan, Altidore, and Mastroeni. Almost every foray into the Costa Rican third came down the left side in the first half. On the right, Wynne and Dempsey had limited help and rarely a safe passing option. Heavy touches from Wynne compounded the problem, as did Dempsey's eagerness to play that perfect pass. Bradley showed for the ball and would switch field, but nothing seemed to work down the right side.

I don't know if Bob Bradley had different roles for each side. Perhaps Dempsey was supposed to track back more but after going down a goal pushed forward. Maybe Mastroeni or Bradley were supposed to give more support on the right. I don't know whether to hold the coach or players responsible for this gaping weakness, because I don't know what the strategy was.

[manutd02]

This makes zero sense. If you can't defend 3 guys, then you shouldn't be playing fullback...? huh?

Wynne had his probs and I readily admit that, but he also had zero help. The formation completely hosed our outside backs. You even admit that the outside backs were screwed.

You're missing my point. I do agree that the way the midfield played last night did leave our fullbacks out to dry a bit. My point the entire time I've posted is how completely useless Wynne is positionally. He has no idea how to defend tactically. He relies purely on his athleticism to defend. My point is not that he shouldn't have been burned because he had no help, but that if he had the slightest bit of tactical ability it wouldn't have happened nearly as often. The same goes for Beasley. He doesn't understand the position and was burned every time.

[moytoy12]

You're missing my point. I do agree that the way the midfield played last night did leave our fullbacks out to dry a bit. My point the entire time I've posted is how completely useless Wynne is positionally. He has no idea how to defend tactically. He relies purely on his athleticism to defend. My point is not that he shouldn't have been burned because he had no help, but that if he had the slightest bit of tactical ability it wouldn't have happened nearly as often. The same goes for Beasley. He doesn't understand the position and was burned every time.

Wynne needs to learn to mark better. There is no doubt there. But to say he is completely useless is wrong. He shut down his defender 1 v. 1. He got turned when he was outnumbered. He needs to be more aware defending the crosser of the ball and defending target men on crosses.

[manutd02]

Wynne needs to learn to mark better. There is no doubt there. But to say he is completely useless is wrong. He shut down his defender 1 v. 1. He got turned when he was outnumbered. He needs to be more aware defending the crosser of the ball and defending target men on crosses.

This is my point. 1 v 1 Wynne is fine because he's so damn athletic. It doesn't matter if you beat him, he's going to catch back up. Outside of a 1 v 1 situation though he is useless. He's a fullback, he's going to be put in 2 v 1 situations all the time and he has no idea how to defend these situations. He also has no idea how to stay connected with his back four which is why he's poor on defending crosses. He's poor on defending the crosser because his starting positions are terrible. He's never in a position to get to a player while the ball is moving so that as the ball arrives he's there to apply pressure. He's always late putting him in no man's land to where he can't defend the cross and he can't deny the cross. His positioning as a whole is horrid and at this level he's going to get punished for it.

[moytoy12]

This is my point. 1 v 1 Wynne is fine because he's so damn athletic. It doesn't matter if you beat him, he's going to catch back up. Outside of a 1 v 1 situation though he is useless. He's a fullback, he's going to be put in 2 v 1 situations all the time and he has no idea how to defend these situations. He also has no idea how to stay connected with his back four which is why he's poor on defending crosses. He's poor on defending the crosser because his starting positions are terrible. He's never in a position to get to a player while the ball is moving so that as the ball arrives he's there to apply pressure. He's always late putting him in no man's land to where he can't defend the cross and he can't deny the cross. His positioning as a whole is horrid and at this level he's going to get punished for it.

Fair points. I don't think he is nearly as poor as you, but we agree on his fundamental weaknesses.