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View Full Version : Chivas/Chicago match incidents


vetshak
30 May 2009, 10:02 AM
I think it would be an interesting discussion to review this match. It's not often you see a FIFA badge throw 11 yellows and a red in one match, but there were numerous incidents of interest outside of the cards, too. Aside from the PK decision four minutes into stoppage (judgment call... from the TV vantage point I thought it looked soft, but Vaughn would have been seeing it from the best angle and I certainly defer), I thought a couple things stood out...

1) The first caution of the game to Harrington... again, all fairness to Vaughn watching the play at live speed as Galindo roared up the field and Vaughn was caught on the break. But with the benefit of slow motion, contact was minimal and Galindo took a dive when he realized he was going to lose possession. John Harkes (who obviously knows very little about officiating) was very critical of the card, but I will say this... if it was a foul, then it was tactical and therefore was 100% misconduct.

2) Both of the first two PKs were clear cut calls. And I'm pretty sure the AR called the first one, even though it must have been off-screen, due to the long delay and confusion. Might be interesting to see if the WiR is again critical of the referee not "selling" the call. A few weeks back when Okulaja's AR flagged a PK handball, Okulaja looked literally pained to call the PK, and the WiR rung him up for it.

3) Dunno if anybody else caught it, but on the Chivas PK, Vaughn had a bit of a hiccup. He blew the whistle to allow Galindo to take the PK while Jon Busch was facing the back of the goal. Busch turned around surprised when he heard the whistle, and was visibly upset about it afterwards. Vaughn looked preturbed on all 3 PKs that the GKs were taking their sweet time to get into position to "ice" the shooters, but Law 14 clearly states the GK must face the field. On this one, he never even bothered to check Busch's position before blowing the whistle.

4) I'm always amazed at the things MLS players get away with in terms of verbal referee abuse. On the first Chicago PK, Jesse Marsch (and for the sake of George, who possibly could have thought it was a good idea to make Marsch the designated player to speak to the referees anyway?!?!) could be clearly seen telling the AR that it was a "bulls*^t call." Twice. I know grownups are allowed to use a bit more harsh language than kids, but I'm red carding any 14 year-old that tells me that. Shouldn't that at least get a yellow card for dissent, even in the pro ranks? What kind of message does that send to kids watching the game?

I have a clip from last year, in a San Jose game, of Ronnie O'Brien on a throw-in call at the halfway line by Jair Marrufo, turning around and screaming "F*&k off, f*&k me" at Marrufo. 10 minutes into the game. On a throw-in decision at the halfway line. I'm not saying that MLS officials should be red carding these guys... big boys use bad words... but no punishment at all for those kinds of public displays hardly helps anybody.

The counter-argument to this is that "cheap" cautions for public but brief outbursts (as long as the content isn't "personal or provocative") change the dynamic of the game. Granted, Marsch is booked there and then picks up a US card later for a bad tackle, the card for the dissent is an instant talking point (not that Marsch didn't take care of this himself anyway!).

When I teach classes to other referees, my personal approach to this is to ask a student if they prefer chocolate or vanilla ice cream. When they answer, I yell at them (regardless of the answer, and loud enough for the whole class to hear me breating them) that, "That's a terrible decision!"

I strongly believe the content of what is said plays a big role in deciding whether a card is needed for dissent, as well as (more importantly) the impact it will have on the match. But frankly, if the response is outside the norm for a routine debate on ice cream flavors, at the least we have to open the door and allow that a caution may be given. If I tell somebody I prefer vanilla and they then yell at me, "That's a bulls^%t decision!", I think that clearly falls outside the norm of civil discussion.

5) Speaking of FAL, when Sacha Kljestan tried to pull Bakary Soumare's head off on a foul early in the second half, there was some serious yelling between Chicago coach Denis Hamlet and Kljestan. On the replay you could clearly see and hear Kljestan screaming at Hamlet to "Shut the f^%k up!" Again, message to kids?

Still on this incident, Baldemero Toledo was extremely active in trying to control the Chicago bench on this incident. (You could tell MLS thought this was a big match with both a FT ref and 4th.) Where was Vaughn? Doesn't the directive say that the referee needs to take command of the technical areas? Doesn't a coach screaming at an opposing field player warrant some kind of intervention? I suppose with a guy like Toledo as 4th he might be more prone to letting him deal with it. But I thought it was a pretty ugly incident all around, and it seemed like it needed the referee to deal directly with both Hamlet and Kljestan.

6) Lastly, the card to Blanco was a nice example of proper and needed punishment for dissent. That was a public display of dissent, and I knew Vaughn was going to book him before he ever appeared on the screen. It was terribly amusing to see Blanco implying after he was booked that the guy he fouled took a dive... this from one of the league's great play-actors...

Ref Flunkie
30 May 2009, 10:49 AM
While I didn't see the match, I do have a question regarding foul and abusive language....is there another sport that in essence allows players to curse directly at officials? Do MLB umpires throw mangers/players out for things like "That was a BS call"? What about NFL officials? Do any other sport referees have to put up with this crap? Honestly, if everyone consistantly cracked down on this crap, it would go away. I have no problem with outbursts, but if it is clearly directed at the referee team in the ways we all know it is quite often, just toss the guy, or at minimum YC for dissent. These jerk players need to learn a little more respect.

shawn12011
30 May 2009, 12:08 PM
In baseball it is about when you complain, balls and strikes or using certain "magic" words.

All officials receive abuse. Right or wrong it is human nature. It can be cut down but human nature says it will always happen.

Ref Flunkie
30 May 2009, 03:36 PM
In baseball it is about when you complain, balls and strikes or using certain "magic" words.

All officials receive abuse. Right or wrong it is human nature. It can be cut down but human nature says it will always happen.

There is "abuse" and ABUSE. IMO, being cursed at falls into ABUSE.

PVancouver
30 May 2009, 05:12 PM
1) The first caution of the game to Harrington... again, all fairness to Vaughn watching the play at live speed as Galindo roared up the field and Vaughn was caught on the break. But with the benefit of slow motion, contact was minimal and Galindo took a dive when he realized he was going to lose possession. John Harkes (who obviously knows very little about officiating) was very critical of the card, but I will say this... if it was a foul, then it was tactical and therefore was 100% misconduct.

Harrington plays for KC. Thorrington was probably initially trying to make an attempt for the ball but pretty clearly had no chance to reach the ball by the time he made contact with Galindo. I don't have an issue with this card.



2) Both of the first two PKs were clear cut calls. And I'm pretty sure the AR called the first one, even though it must have been off-screen, due to the long delay and confusion. Might be interesting to see if the WiR is again critical of the referee not "selling" the call. A few weeks back when Okulaja's AR flagged a PK handball, Okulaja looked literally pained to call the PK, and the WiR rung him up for it.

Vaughn obviously did not see or call the shirt pull, but he wasn't pained in any way at all to follow through with his AR's call. I don't have any issues with Vaughn's handling of this at all.



3) Dunno if anybody else caught it, but on the Chivas PK, Vaughn had a bit of a hiccup. He blew the whistle to allow Galindo to take the PK while Jon Busch was facing the back of the goal. Busch turned around surprised when he heard the whistle, and was visibly upset about it afterwards. Vaughn looked preturbed on all 3 PKs that the GKs were taking their sweet time to get into position to "ice" the shooters, but Law 14 clearly states the GK must face the field. On this one, he never even bothered to check Busch's position before blowing the whistle.

At least Busch was civil. But frankly, Busch had been in position, and then decided to wander around in goal like he was bored with the proceedings. Meanwhile, Vaughn was checking the positions of other players, and doesn't deserve a beating just because one player who had been in position decided to take a walk an an inopportune time. Busch did have enough time to get into position before the kick was taken, so chaos was averted.



4) I'm always amazed at the things MLS players get away with in terms of verbal referee abuse...

I agree in general that MLS players get away with too much verbal abuse.



5) Speaking of FAL, when Sacha Kljestan tried to pull Bakary Soumare's head off on a foul early in the second half, there was some serious yelling between Chicago coach Denis Hamlet and Kljestan. On the replay you could clearly see and hear Kljestan screaming at Hamlet to "Shut the f^%k up!" Again, message to kids?

Still on this incident, Baldemero Toledo was extremely active in trying to control the Chicago bench on this incident. (You could tell MLS thought this was a big match with both a FT ref and 4th.) Where was Vaughn? Doesn't the directive say that the referee needs to take command of the technical areas? Doesn't a coach screaming at an opposing field player warrant some kind of intervention? I suppose with a guy like Toledo as 4th he might be more prone to letting him deal with it. But I thought it was a pretty ugly incident all around, and it seemed like it needed the referee to deal directly with both Hamlet and Kljestan.

Actually, the incident occurred at 28:00. The initial collision was very hard, and to describe it as purely accidental is generous, but acceptable, I suppose. The two handed grabbing of Soumare by Kljestan, which obviously was not done with great care for Soumare's health, was an obvious foul. Letting play continue to see if an advantage developed was a poor choice IMO. It didn't help matters that Chivas appeared to win the ball initially with an uncalled, unfair charge in the back by Lillingston.

I am not clear on who Kljestan was yelling at after the play. After yelling STFU twice, he then said FYBtch. Preki then yelled at Hamlett, I could not hear what he said, and Hamlett yelled back, "He talked to me I never said anything to him, I never said anything to him." Rather, Hamlett had been yelling at Vaughn, presumably for the lack of an immediate foul call on Kljestan.



6) Lastly, the card to Blanco was a nice example of proper and needed punishment for dissent. That was a public display of dissent, and I knew Vaughn was going to book him before he ever appeared on the screen. It was terribly amusing to see Blanco implying after he was booked that the guy he fouled took a dive... this from one of the league's great play-actors...

It is a bit surprising that you knew Blanco was going to get a card when the theme of your post is that players get away with too much. I doubt Blanco would have done it if he knew he was going to get a card. Talley did greatly enhance the contact and Vaughn might not have even called a foul, his AR did. I certainly agree that the card was merited, especially on a day when Vaughn was generous with his cards.

vetshak
31 May 2009, 12:22 AM
Harrington plays for KC.Thank you for the correction on Harrington/Thorrington. Got my **rrington's mixed up.

...but he wasn't pained in any way at all to follow through with his AR's call.Because that PK call was made off-screen, it's impossible to say if Vaughn sold the call any better. There was a long delay and confusion, but it may not have been Vaughn's fault, I will admit.


Vaughn was checking the positions of other players, and doesn't deserve a beating just because one player who had been in position decided to take a walk an an inopportune timeIMHO, one of the fundamentals of Law 14 is to make sure all players are in position when you blow your whistle. Of all of the mularkey that could occur on a PK, the last thing the referee needs to do is screw the GK by accident. Maybe Busch did decide to walk away, but the solution to that should not be blowing the whistle while his back is turned. Stop him, talk to him, heck, even give him a YC for delaying the restart of play. You name it. But don't allow the kicker to take the kick while the keeper's back is turned. I think that's just asking for criticism.

I personally always ask the keeper if they are ready before blowing my whistle. Maybe this is bad technique... nobody has ever told me it is. But I would argue this is decent preventative refereeing. At the least, it always make me check the GK position as the very last thing before I blow the whistle.

I don't think Vaughn was playing gotcha', I think he just had a brain spasm.

I am not clear on who Kljestan was yelling at after the play.I was going off the ESPN sideline reporter (Allen Hopkins), who was stationed behind the 4th official; he reported during the game that Kljestan was swearing at Hamlett.

It is a bit surprising that you knew Blanco was going to get a card...Why did I know Blanco had a card coming? Because the Week 9 WiR from USSF had a video example of public dissent that was "punished" with only a stern word, and the WiR staff ripped the referee for not cautioning the player. Blanco's dissent was very public and visual, and I was pretty sure that if anybody would enforce WiR points after they have been emphasized so recently, it would be one of the four FT USSF referees.

Interestingly, the cursing at officials might not be considered "public" by the referees, as weird as that sounds. Just because ESPN's sound boom catches that kind of language and plays it to a couple million viewers (or am I being too generous of the MLS audiences?) doesn't mean the referee assumes a comment like "That's a BS call" is all that public.

I personally don't think it's right to curse like that anyway. But what Blanco did and the times where TV catches the foul language being blurted at officials are two different topics, I think. Blanco's dissent was different.

intechpc
31 May 2009, 10:48 AM
I actually thought the first yellow was spot on. I know the commentators didn't like it either, but this was one of those player hunting moments and you just knew the foul was coming. Galindo had already made two spectacular moves to get past two Chicago players as he pushed up field. He had one clear defender left to beat and had Thorrington coming in from his left. I know I was saying it, and knowing a good bit about how Vaughn works the field I'm sure he was yelling it, "Don't do it, don't foul him". And sure enough Thorrington comes in and makes a desperation foul. Now it may have been a soft foul not normally worthy of a caution, and Galindo may have embellished a bit to sell the call but it was a foul. It was also a very tactical foul that was probably warned against before it occurred. To that end I felt the caution was well justified and I was glad to see it properly given.

With regard to the first PK, I was quite impressed that the AR saw it and was glad to see the referee crew get it right (even though I hate Chicago Fire with a passion). I don't know what more Vaughn could have done to sell it better given the situation. Possibly sprint over to the Penalty Mark after the conversation but all in all I thought it was handled as well as could be expected.

It was very refreshing to see Blanco get cautioned for one of his little tantrums. He's allowed to get away with so much of that, I loved seeing Vaughn nail that one.

Marsh is a complete idiot. He was already sitting on his yellow for dissent when he commits a pretty rough foul at mid-field that I thought might see him packing right then. Vaughn talked with him and kept him on the field so what does he do? Not more than a minute later he commits another late and terrible tackle earning his second yellow and an early invitation to leave the match. Even his own body language showed he knew the caution was justified.

The last PK did appear from television angles to be pretty soft with a Hollywood class performance by McBride to sell the call. As someone else mentioned in another thread, disappointing to see a guy who I've considered one of the classiest in US Soccer use a tactic like that so blatantly to earn a PK. But in the end Vaughn saw we he judged to be a foul and he may have seen more than we did from TV.

As much as I hate the Chicago Fire, Chivas has no one but themselves to blame for this loss. Marsh completely changed the game with his send off. As noted Kljestan easily could have been sent off too (nice of ESPN not to censor that replay :p ). Once playing short, Chivas did a terrible job of getting the ball cleared from their defending third and the second goal was an example of complete laziness (or fatigue) on the part of their defenders. Chivas got two really nice goals in the match but failed to defend in the most critical times and it cost them.

vetshak
05 Jun 2009, 11:39 AM
WiR podcast and online material are up. They use the AR-called PK as talking point this week. Tamberino and Hall say good call, great work by the AR. No comment about the delay, but they did say Vaughn was too stagnant in his position and could have worked harder to be able to smell the foul himself.

http://www.ussoccer.com/articles/viewArticle.jsp_14745602.htm

And they do say that Marsch "could" have been cautioned too... I find that amusing, because their post of the clip on the USSF site puts a black box over his mouth so you can't see him mouthing the word "bulls&^t." I would describe that as a "gentle" suggestion.