To Card or Not

[asler]

U17B game I centered this past weekend (and my first center at this intensity level). Hard tackle takes out a defender and as he goes down (in obvious pain) lets loose with F*&%# that can be heard across the field. The cry is clearly from the pain of the foul tackle. I call the foul tackle and check to see if I need to halt play for injury (which I do end up doing). I don't card the hurt player. Opposing coach (whose player injured the defender) starts screaming for a card for language. Too bad - the language was not directed at anyone and simply a reaction to the pain.

After the game I check with my AR's about it (one a state ref and the other with much more experience then me across the board). They both agree that not carding was probably the right thing to do since the foul language was not abusive and not directed at anyone.

What says the board?

C

[intechpc]

You'd be setting yourself up for a huge game management issue if you carded the player. This is where some simple understanding, which you displayed, comes into play. First of all this is U17B so you're talking about 16 & 17 year-olds. While their parents probably wish it wasn't, this type of language at that age is pretty normal. He was hurt, it wasn't directed at anyone, so I see no need for a card and in fact a card would be detrimental in this case. Remember, our cards are tools and when we choose to use them it should be because we feel use of the tool will gain us something in terms of game management.

Now you could maybe, after the player is up and recovered, tell the player you understand he's hurting but ask that he try to keep his language under wraps as there may be small kids around. Be friendly about it and make it clear it's no big deal.

As to the coach, sounds like his player should have been the one seeing yellow. Maybe remind him of that when he's screaming for the card, or just ignore him which works well too. One thing that might have helped avoid his stupidity would have been to give his player a chewing right away, then he'll be glad just to see his player get away without the caution.

Overall, based on your description it sounds like you handled it appropriately.

[hradilv]

ATR 12.31 is pretty clear to me. This was not directed at anyone, and not abusive. Merely the result of a momentary emotional outburst. Good no call. I think I might still say something to him in private, subject to YHTBT.

[Ref Flunkie]

ATR 12.31 is pretty clear to me. This was not directed at anyone, and not abusive. Merely the result of a momentary emotional outburst. Good no call. I think I might still say something to him in private, subject to YHTBT.

++1

[USSF REF]

Good decision. In fact, next time kick the coach in the shin with the toe of your boot and see what sort of language comes out of his mouth. ;)

[flyfishhi]

You don't say anything about the player who fouled him.

After I stop play for this type of injury, I'm looking for the perp. I may or may not give him a card, but I'm certainly going to go talk to him. This gets the hurt player's team attention, that I know who did it and he's at the least getting a warning and maybe a yellow for hurting their teammate. If you don't do that, then retaliation comes to mind, the other coach is now mad and you've created a nice hole to dig yourself out of.

And the perp's coach isn't going to be yelling for a card if you're talking to his player.

[nonya]

Good decision. In fact, next time kick the coach in the shin with the toe of your boot and see what sort of language comes out of his mouth. ;)

Wow, are we allowed to do that?!?

I think I will try it in my next game.

[dadman]

Wow, are we allowed to do that?!?

I think I will try it in my next game.
Remember Rule #1: Park facing out. :)

I think the OP handled it just fine. The point about the fouling player is a good one, but yes, YHTBT is the proper caveat from this remove.

[DWickham]

Brian Hall gave a talk to our association a few years back and mentioned what he called the "ouch factor." When a player is in pain, the next words out of his mouth may not be saintly. It should be ignored if it is directed at the pain and not the person.

[IASocFan]

Unless it's High School, then our administrators want a straight RED CARD! :o

[hradilv]

Unless it's High School, then our administrators want a straight RED CARD! :o

Yeah - I was thinking I might handle it differently for AYSO as well. Lots of families with little kids around, etc. Still - maybe just a little more stern with my words after he recovers. "I realize it really hurts, but..."

[NHRef]

Our orders for state cup , where the winner goes to Region 1, was "swears that are heard: red card, no questions asked".

However common sense should kick in, as it did with you. For example, I did AR duty on a u17B "fun filled" match. CR was one of our best and right infront of me was a very hard foul that not only knocked the defender off his feet, but over the touch line as well. CR came in screaming, carded the attacker, while doing this the defender expressed his opinion of the tackle using some typical 17 year old language :rolleyes: No card given. Why? Officially the CR "didn't hear it" :p

Pain hurts and sometimes things just come out of your mouth.

[Chubbywubby]

No card given. Why? Officially the CR "didn't hear it" :p
Great line to use in that situation, I believe from someone on this board: "I don't think I just heard that, and I don't want to have to not hear it again!"

[socfan60]

[QUOTE=NHRef;17744998]Our orders for state cup , where the winner goes to Region 1, was "swears that are heard: red card, no questions asked".[/QUOTE

I hate this. Is there a list of words? A bitch is a female dog, a fa%$ot* a pile of sticks. Some kids get a smack from mom for Hell or Damn. And what of "wanker" or "poof" not to mention foreign tongues? Out of context words are just words. The beauty of the original "foul and abusive" is you don't need to know what is said to know what is said. Come running up to me foaming at the mouth speaking in any language you choose (or mutter under your breath in that tone we all know) and the card is coming out. Take one in the shins and let one loose- it is all part of the game. Discretion is key. In soccer, as with most things, when an absolute, no discretion policy rule is applied we all loose.

* even Big Soccer has an absolute policy!

Rant over

[Untroubled by Reason]

Unless it's High School, then our administrators want a straight RED CARD! :o
Yup, saw that in action in my first year of HS (coaching, not reffing). After white team scored their first and second goals, several white players returned to their half of the field high-fiving and screaming "F' yeah, f' yeah!" while both ref recorded the goal in their notebooks. Nothing given. When a green player was leaving the field late in the match after playing badly, he mutters just loud enough, "F'!" and sees red. After the match, I told the gentlemen in the middle that their hearing seemed a little one sided, but they didn't get it. It's a great system they have in HS... :rolleyes:

Oh, and this was after getting a pregame from the refs that included, "No dropping the F bomb, or it's straight red." Apparently, some f's are redder than others...

[Untroubled by Reason]

I hate this. Is there a list of words?
See Carlin, George. ;)

[refmedic]

Good decision. In fact, next time kick the coach in the shin with the toe of your boot and see what sort of language comes out of his mouth. ;)

I'm a huge fan of dismissing coaches/parents who are nothing but problems, but assaulting them too? Where do I sign up??!! Of course this is all in jest, but it does give a matter of perspective on things. Usually these things only rise to the level of misconduct, at least in the coach's mind, if it is done by their opponent, so we should take their input with a grain of salt.

Intechpc makes a great point that if you caution this kid for saying that, you have just made the remainder of your match much more difficult. Everyone on that field knows why those words were muttered, and they also probably know that it's no big deal (although mom and dad are not too happy with their child's choice of words). The coach is interjecting a little gamesmanship into the situation, and playing 1 player up will be a huge benefit to him. Mr. Wickham's point about Mr. Hall's presentation is a very important aspect to this. The "ouch factor" is a really handy way of looking at this. Referees must hand down justice, not just punishment. Dr. Evan's has a chapter in his book about it. You need to punish the instigator. If you send off this player for screaming profanity after just being clobbered, then you have punished him for reacting in a way that we all would, and justice has not been served. You have punished the victim. The real culprit there is the opponent who clobbered this guy. You can't send the "swearer" off and do nothing to the guy who caused the whole situation. Sanctioning the language and not the tackle is a double-whammy to the victim, and that's not why we are there.

YHYBT regarding the caution/no caution to the initial tackler. I think you were completely correct in not cautioning, and especially not dismissing, the victim here. When a player gets whacked, I'm going to develop some transient deafness to his initial reaction, as in IMO, he has earned that reaction due to what just happened.

[Tim Brice]

Empathy is a big a part of referring, in my opinion. If you have been on the receiving end of one of those tackles, you know they hurt like hell. It is just a reaction and these players are old enough where no one is going to be offended.

[jkc313]

U17B game I centered this past weekend (and my first center at this intensity level). Hard tackle takes out a defender and as he goes down (in obvious pain) lets loose with F*&%# that can be heard across the field. The cry is clearly from the pain of the foul tackle. I call the foul tackle and check to see if I need to halt play for injury (which I do end up doing). I don't card the hurt player. Opposing coach (whose player injured the defender) starts screaming for a card for language. Too bad - the language was not directed at anyone and simply a reaction to the pain.

After the game I check with my AR's about it (one a state ref and the other with much more experience then me across the board). They both agree that not carding was probably the right thing to do since the foul language was not abusive and not directed at anyone.

What says the board?

C
First, you stopped play for the hard foul not the injury. If there's a card to be shown here it's probably to the player that made a foul tackle and injured his opponent doing so. Did you consider the foul to be reckless or with excessive force? Sounds like a possibility. There is no card for the offense of "language" and it takes a real mental midget of a coach to be screaming for this while an opposing player lies injured on the field. The language was NOT dissent nor was it insulting or abusive. I'll grant you the words themselves may be considered to be offensive but not in the way LOTG mean. You would have a huge problem sending off this injured player for letting out some profanities because he was hurt. You would lose the respect of the players for over reacting.