advantage

[simon99]

Hi, quick question here. If a forward is fouled on the edge of the box and the ref let the play go (advantage) and a second after the forward is fouled a second time but inside the box, is that a PK? Or do the ref has to come back to the spot of the first foul who happened outside?

Thanks.

[IASocFan]

Hi, quick question here. If a forward is fouled on the edge of the box and the ref let the play go (advantage) and a second after the forward is fouled a second time but inside the box, is that a PK? Or do the ref has to come back to the spot of the first foul who happened outside?

Thanks.

First foul just outside the box -> play advantage
2nd foul in the box -> no advantage, PK

You shouldn't penalize the attacker by going back to the first foul, it's a PK!

Now if you're from the attacking side (say Chelsea), and the referee doesn't consider the second contact a foul on the defending team, he can go back to the first foul outside the box.

[simon99]

First foul -> play advantage
2nd foul in the box -> no advantage, PK

You shouldn't penalize the attacker by going back to the first foul, it's a PK!

Now if you're from the attacking side (say Chelsea), and the referee doesn't consider the second contact a foul on the defending team, he can go back to the first foul outside the box.

ok, thanks, that's what I thought.

Now, if a foul starts on the edge of the box (let's say a defender holding a shirt) and it does continue into the box where the players goes down, the ref will have to come back at the place where the foul started (outside the box)?

[hradilv]

No:

LOTG says - If a defender starts holding an attacker outside the penalty area and
continues holding him inside the penalty area, the referee must award
a penalty kick. p.109

[o5iiawah]

No:

LOTG says - If a defender starts holding an attacker outside the penalty area and
continues holding him inside the penalty area, the referee must award
a penalty kick. p.109

Unless you are Tom Ovrebo in a the CL semi, then you penalise the attacker trying to gain advantage from the foul by awarding the less-serious penalty.

[refmedic]

You are in a referee forum, and here, "edge of the box" probably means something to us and something completely different to you. The lines are part of the area that they mark. Therefore, if, by using the term "edge of the box" you mean that the foul occurs ON the penalty area line, then the foul has actually occurred in the penalty area, and a PK is the correct restart. There is no continuation problem here. If you mean that the foul occurred just outside the penalty area line, and thus outside the PA, and then continues insude the PA, then the correct restart is a PK as hradilv stated. Refer to pg. 109 of the Laws of the Game (not the USSF version, the actual FIFA version). They can be found here:

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/81/42/36/lotg%5fen.pdf

[USSF REF]

Unless you are Tom Ovrebo in a the CL semi, then you penalise the attacker trying to gain advantage from the foul by awarding the less-serious penalty.

That's rubbish.

[boylanj64]

Unless you are Tom Ovrebo in a the CL semi, then you penalise the attacker trying to gain advantage from the foul by awarding the less-serious penalty.

Agree with USSF Ref on this. If you want to bash Ovrebo, there is another thread in which you can do so, but your statement sounds biased and partisan to me. Ovrebo was on the field, had the view and made the call. We can use the game as a learning tool, but there is no need to treat it as a rented mule, and I am confident that a UEFA Elite referee understands the concept of a foul that continues in to the penalty area.

[Ref Flunkie]

No:

LOTG says - If a defender starts holding an attacker outside the penalty area and
continues holding him inside the penalty area, the referee must award
a penalty kick. p.109

I believe this is not the situation the OP is wanting to know about (still good info to give him though). This is an interesting question though....lets say an attacker is held and released outside of the PA....you play advantage and then a player comes and trips the attacker who is now inside the PA. I would argue that the advantage DID end up materializing because the attacker made it into the PA (which is advantageous to him) because now he get a PK vs. just a standard free kick. I would give the PK. The only time you seem to go back to the original foul is if the advantage did NOT materialize, which is up to the referee.

[boylanj64]

I believe this is not the situation the OP is wanting to know about (still good info to give him though). This is an interesting question though....lets say an attacker is held and released outside of the PA....you play advantage and then a player comes and trips the attacker who is now inside the PA. I would argue that the advantage DID end up materializing because the attacker made it into the PA (which is advantageous to him) because now he get a PK vs. just a standard free kick. I would give the PK. The only time you seem to go back to the original foul is if the advantage did NOT materialize, which is up to the referee.

Of course - as always, think about the PA the same as midfield. If a player is fouled five yards his side of midfield, and then again five yards in to his opponent's half, we go with the second foul. However, I could see this causing problems. Consider this scenario:

Player is dribbling, and is fouled about five yards above the area. He never enters the PA, instead continuing his dribble along its flank, foul continues for his whole rune, and he finally falls down from the foul on the corner of the goal line and PA. Where would you give the foul? Do you go with the goal line and let the team try their luck at a cross? Do you go five yards above the area where the foul began, so they can take a shot? Do you go with the very top of the area, so their shooter is closer? Do you consider that a bent ball is actually easier to get over a wall if you are further out? If we set the ball at the back of the foul, and the attacker sets it five yards forward, do we tell him to back up, even though the foul also occurred there?

My point is, while choosing between a PK and DFK is delineated for us, what do we do if it doesn't fall within those guidelines?

[hradilv]

I believe this is not the situation the OP is wanting to know about (still good info to give him though). This is an interesting question though....lets say an attacker is held and released outside of the PA....you play advantage and then a player comes and trips the attacker who is now inside the PA. I would argue that the advantage DID end up materializing because the attacker made it into the PA (which is advantageous to him) because now he get a PK vs. just a standard free kick. I would give the PK. The only time you seem to go back to the original foul is if the advantage did NOT materialize, which is up to the referee.

Right - my answer was to the OP's follow-up question about continuation.

Your scenario is a "no-brainer" - PK all the way.

[DadOf6]

Of course - as always, think about the PA the same as midfield. If a player is fouled five yards his side of midfield, and then again five yards in to his opponent's half, we go with the second foul. However, I could see this causing problems. Consider this scenario:

Player is dribbling, and is fouled about five yards above the area. He never enters the PA, instead continuing his dribble along its flank, foul continues for his whole rune, and he finally falls down from the foul on the corner of the goal line and PA. Where would you give the foul? Do you go with the goal line and let the team try their luck at a cross? Do you go five yards above the area where the foul began, so they can take a shot? Do you go with the very top of the area, so their shooter is closer? Do you consider that a bent ball is actually easier to get over a wall if you are further out? If we set the ball at the back of the foul, and the attacker sets it five yards forward, do we tell him to back up, even though the foul also occurred there?

My point is, while choosing between a PK and DFK is delineated for us, what do we do if it doesn't fall within those guidelines?

I believe that the USSF position paper "When Fouls Continue" says that in these cases the kick should be awarded at the point that is best for the fouled team.

[Ref Flunkie]

Right - my answer was to the OP's follow-up question about continuation.

Your scenario is a "no-brainer" - PK all the way.

Even no-brainers are hard for me ;).

[boylanj64]

I believe that the USSF position paper "When Fouls Continue" says that in these cases the kick should be awarded at the point that is best for the fouled team.

I know that is the guidance - my point was, what do you do when it is not obvious where the most advantageous position is.

[hradilv]

I know that is the guidance - my point was, what do you do when it is not obvious where the most advantageous position is.

Perhaps you could indicate DFK, but not directly indicate the position - and take into account where the attacking team starts to set up the kick(?). Of course, they'll probably just turn to you and say "where is it, ref?"...

[NHRef]

I know that is the guidance - my point was, what do you do when it is not obvious where the most advantageous position is.

Pick a spot and go with it. As mentioned above, delay your indication for a second, a BRIEF second to see if it all resolves itself, but if you hesitate to much you run the risk of not selling the call.

[andymoss]

I believe that the USSF position paper "When Fouls Continue" says that in these cases the kick should be awarded at the point that is best for the fouled team.

I know that is the guidance - my point was, what do you do when it is not obvious where the most advantageous position is.

Perhaps you could indicate DFK, but not directly indicate the position - and take into account where the attacking team starts to set up the kick(?). Of course, they'll probably just turn to you and say "where is it, ref?"...

Pick a spot and go with it. As mentioned above, delay your indication for a second, a BRIEF second to see if it all resolves itself, but if you hesitate to much you run the risk of not selling the call.

This is probably a situation where you are going to have to extert some authority with a hard whistle and a run-in.

Instead of my usual get-in-there-and-stand-at-the-spot-of-foul, I'd likely get in and quickly move to either my restart position or in the area where the wall is going to be if the kicking team takes the kick from where I think they will.

Ultimately, let them figure it out and if they need help with the spot, by asking for ten, etc., I'll gladly oblige.

[DadOf6]

I know that is the guidance - my point was, what do you do when it is not obvious where the most advantageous position is.

If it's not obvious then it probably doesn't matter. Just pick a spot.

[o5iiawah]

I support newcastle, if anything else. Did not have a dog in the fight. I've had a few people that I know ask me about that game and I have a hard time defending him.

I know this isn't a bash ovrebo thread but I related something that happened recently to the OP's question.