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Raftastic
12 May 2009, 08:51 AM
Sent to WSD by Tim Vickery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Vickery)

I have sent the following to Steven Cohen with the request that it be posted on the World Soccer Daily website as an open letter to stimulate debate;

Steven,
You complain of receiving death threats as a consequence of comments you made about the Hillsbrough disaster. Such threats are clearly to be condemned. But I really think - and advise you in the strongest possible terms - to reconsider your position on this issue.

The strength of feeling on this issue is incredibly high even after all these years, and it’s no wonder. You have to bear in mind the poison that the people of Liverpool have had to put up with on this issue - especially the campaign of the Sun newspaper at the time. The low point was reached with the accusation that these sub-human Liverpudlians had been urinating over other fans - when in fact this was an involuntary action of people who were being crushed to death. You have been placed in this camp - the camp of poisonous liars who seek to profit from populist bashing of the people of Liverpool.

I don’t believe you belong in this camp - indeed the spirit of this open letter is to try and win you over, since there is no issue in football more important than fan safety. As a football community we need to come together on this one, and I don’t believe that you are on the side of the villains.
But I do think you need to think about your opinion that Hillsbrough was a case of ‘shared responsibility.’ You will say that you have a right to an opinion - but that opinion has to be in line with the facts as they have been established.

As I understand it, your ’shared responsibility’ idea is based on the existence of ticketless fans. I expect there were some. Every week in the Maracana I see fans jumping over fences to try and get in without tickets. Does that make them killers?
Furthermore, it seems that ticketless fans were not a factor in the tragedy - because the problem was not so much one of over-capacity, but of bad distribution of fans. There was space available at the sides - but the way the fans entered forced too many through the middle.

But even if there were ticketless fans, this does not alter the principal fact. Responsibility goes with power. The more power you have, the more responsibility. The organisers of the event had the responsibility to ensure the safety of those who attended. That means - and this is absolutely basic - cordoning off the area, restricting access to control the flow of fans. The fact that this did not take place properly is to me a damning indictment of organisational incompetence.
To my mind the furthest that anyone can go on the ‘shared responsibility’ idea is as follows - English football, as a whole, had developed a culture whereby he most vital part of fan safety had been forgotten. With all the focus on violence what got overlooked was the fact that the mere presence of so many people in a restricted space is in itself a threat to their safety. But there were people at Hillsbrough being paid to deal with this problem. Their failure to carry out their duties with minimal competence seems to me to be the overwhelming cause of the tragedy

So I urge you to rethink your position on this vital issue. Don’t allow yourself to be associated with the lies of The Sun. Remember, we’re not only fighting battles of the past here - crowds automatically mean danger. While we are blaming fans we are giving the authorities an excuse for bad crowd control - and that can be fatal.
Tim Vickery


As far as I am aware, this has not been put up on the website - you have my authorisation to publish this open letter on any website of other publication that you see fit.

I would like to add that the appearances i make on the programme are unpaid. But also, though I've never met him personaly, he doesn't seem to me to be a bad bloke. He has said some very silly things - in this case it's no real excuse, but it can be easy to let your mouth run away with you on radio. I would like to think that he can be won over - this really was the point of the letter. Not just for the 96, but for all other potential victims of criminally inept crowd control, I think there's more to be gained from dialogue within the community of football fans than any other course of action. Can we win him over with the force of debate?

Cheers,
TimI feel the need to put this out in the open under Tims instruction,please don't turn this into a flaming thread allthough the question has to be asked as to why Steve decided not to publish this letter on the WSD site especially when you take into consideration Tim specifically requested him to and the fact that Tim is one of Steves top contributors and the fact Tim pads out Mr.Cohens show all for the pricely sum of nothing.

WoodyinCU
12 May 2009, 09:37 AM
This has nothing to do with us, please take it to Steven rather than try to gain public favor or pressure. If you want to debate the subject, go to RAWK or the Liverpool boards on BigSoccer. Steven never goes to message boards.

Raftastic
12 May 2009, 09:47 AM
This has nothing to do with us, please take it to Steven rather than try to gain public favor or pressure. If you want to debate the subject, go to RAWK or the Liverpool boards on BigSoccer. Steven never goes to message boards.

This is the WSD forum is it not ?
The letter was for the WSD listeners/Forum was it not ?

Why do you have a problem with this letter being made public on a WSD forum ?

Ps You have no favors i could possibly me intrested in mate,but thankyou for the reply.

WoodyinCU
12 May 2009, 09:56 AM
This is not *the* WSD website. We're not going to play, please take it elsewhere.

Blue Note
12 May 2009, 11:29 AM
Hmm, Ok you've said your bit and posted the Vickery letter to garner some sympathy. I'd like to see some moral outrage from Liverpool fans over some of the absolutely unforgiveable stuff from LFC supporters I've had to delete from this forum over the weekend. But I won't hold my breath.

I'll leave your letter up since I respect Vickery, but if this turns into another WSD hate thread it's getting taken down.

ThespecialoneJM
12 May 2009, 11:40 AM
Seriously....this is getting pathetic.

Raftastic
12 May 2009, 11:56 AM
Hmm, Ok you've said your bit and posted the Vickery letter to garner some sympathy. I'd like to see some moral outrage from Liverpool fans over some of the absolutely unforgiveable stuff from LFC supporters I've had to delete from this forum over the weekend. But I won't hold my breath.

I'll leave your letter up since I respect Vickery, but if this turns into another WSD hate thread it's getting taken down.

Thankyou Blue Note,Liverpool supporters are not looking for anything other than Cohen to stop spewing his lies & i certainly would not have posted the letter if i was looking for people to jump on the bandwagon considering Mr.Vickery not once said a bad word about Mr.Cohen.

Like you said it's an important letter simply because of who wrote it.

Raftastic
12 May 2009, 11:57 AM
Seriously....this is getting pathetic.

I agree SpecialOne.

WoodyinCU
12 May 2009, 11:59 AM
As an aside, I see that the letter *has* been posted on the WSD front page.

Raftastic
12 May 2009, 12:08 PM
As an aside, I see that the letter *has* been posted on the WSD front page.

Mr.Vickery has been thanked for bringing the letter into the public domain,i guess Mr.Cohen had no other choice but to give said letter its rightfull platform after Tims expose.

bredvillan
12 May 2009, 12:33 PM
Hope this ends soon, this is getting old.

Blue Note
12 May 2009, 12:35 PM
Hope this ends soon, this is getting old.

You're not alone.

WoodyinCU
12 May 2009, 12:44 PM
Mr.Vickery has been thanked for bringing the letter into the public domain,i guess Mr.Cohen had no other choice but to give said letter its rightfull platform after Tims expose.

Yes, of course you guys are going to be taking credit for that. I would point out that it was in the pipeline to be published today, but I'm sure you and your "fachts" should take all the credit.

Let's move on.

Raftastic
12 May 2009, 12:46 PM
Hope this ends soon, this is getting old.

I too hope it all ends soon,all it will take is for Mr.Cohen to acknowledge the hurt he has caused and appologies AGAIN but sadly all he seems to be doing is dragging it our further and digging his hole deeper.

If todays piece in the daily news (http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_12348448) is anything to go by then i have more chance of waking up without my tackle and a fresh pair of breasts.

Steve Nichol is starting to get extreamly annoyed with the constant lies and i would not be shocked if he takes it too the national press.

Raftastic
12 May 2009, 12:53 PM
Yes, of course you guys are going to be taking credit for that. I would point out that it was in the pipeline to be published today, but I'm sure you and your "fachts" should take all the credit.

Let's move on.

Where exactly has any Liverpool supporter taken credit ? all the credit has gone to Mr.Vickery who was suprised that his letter had not made it onto the website and felt the Need to make it public,it's easy to say 'well we were about to' after the FACT i guess your 'fachts' was a Xenophobic dig at our manager.

Richard Saunders
12 May 2009, 01:13 PM
I love the show and it is by far the best soccer radio show in the U.S. This show is all about the hosts and callers expressing their opinions. If you don't like Steven's opinion on an issue then call into the show and call him out. Or if you are really offended turn it off. However, to organize a sponsorship boycott in an attempt to take the show off the air is petty, vindictive, and extremely selfish.

I believe that the good that this show does on a daily basis for the average American soccer fan far, far, far outweights any negative comments Steven occasionally may make about Liverpool fans and their historic tragic events. Frankly, the petulant behavior of the Liverpool supporter groups (and people like Raftastic) only give credence to Steven's opinions on this matter.

WoodyinCU
12 May 2009, 01:15 PM
Steve Nichol is starting to get extreamly annoyed with the constant lies and i would not be shocked if he takes it too the national press.

Ah, more name dropping to give yourself support? Want me to call Coach Steve about it, since he and I talked on this subject last week? He's ticked that his email to Darren Evans was posted publicly, that he was being drawn into something that he doesn't want to be. He supports the Justice for 96, but he doesn't support the tactics you guys have been using. He's washed his hands of both.

Take it up with Steven. We don't care. Stop trying to convince us and stick with doing things for the families and memorial. That's a quality use of your time and efforts, and might gain you support again. The current tactics have used up all your goodwill.

shanks1
12 May 2009, 05:30 PM
Some interesting comments re a story in a LA newspaper about Cohen v Lpool supporters .

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/los-angeles-daily-news/T3HU0JPRRU1JAH7MN

WoodyinCU
12 May 2009, 06:20 PM
Some interesting comments re a story in a LA newspaper about Cohen v Lpool supporters

Not really, just more self righteous anger from some UK people. You really could solve this issue if you really wanted to, but that would ruin all your fun.

Please take it elsewhere. We don't care anymore.

ReecePrinn
12 May 2009, 06:30 PM
I find it shocking that this is still being talked about. Steven retracted his statement, and that ought to be the end to it. Apart from Steven, the only people who talk about Hillsborough are Liverpool supporters. It's painfully similar to the way in which Rudy Giuliani talks about 9/11 incessantly.

The Sun newspaper is still reviled by Liverpool supporters 20 years after they printed that twisted, backwards account of what took place that day. The newspaper printed an apology, and Kelvin MacKenzie hasn't been the editor for several years now. That being said, Steven is never going to be "forgiven" by Liverpool supporters, regardless of whether or not he changes his mind, retracts his statements, or apologises.