The late foul

[imasyko]

I'm pretty new at this, and am having a problem on how to handle the obvious late challenge. Example from a game this past weekend - attacker with the ball inside the PA mis-hits the ball which heads harmlessly out of touch for a GK. A defender, clearly two steps late, shoulder charges into the attacker, knocking her off her feet. The defender was an over-weight young lady who I didn't feel was being mailcious, she simply couldn't get there as fast as she wanted to or thought she could. (and as an old man, I'm sympathetic :))

Naturally, the parents are screaming for a PK, which I don't see that I can reward as the ball was already out of play, or headed that way. I realize that if I thought it was a cardable offense, I could card the individual - but here is the sticking point for me...is it OK to card someone for a late foul in the box and not award a penalty?

Would the proper procedure be to whistle the foul, give the card, or at least talk to the offending player, but allow the play to continue as though the foul didn't happen - meaning in this case, a goal kick? I have in the past rewarded free kicks, but feel that is incorrect - why reward the offensive player for mis-playing the ball or otherwise losing possession prior to the foul? You can't call advantage when the ball is headed out of play, correct?

And, as a corollary, how late is late?

This type of play bothers me because if a call is not made (and I didn't call anything in the above example), I feel it can or has lead to some bad feelings among the players, and the game getting 'chippier' and more difficult to manage.

Any guidance or guidelines for these situations would be greatly appreciated.

[intechpc]

I realize that if I thought it was a cardable offense, I could card the individual - but here is the sticking point for me...is it OK to card someone for a late foul in the box and not award a penalty?

Would the proper procedure be to whistle the foul, give the card, or at least talk to the offending player, but allow the play to continue as though the foul didn't happen - meaning in this case, a goal kick? I have in the past rewarded free kicks, but feel that is incorrect - why reward the offensive player for mis-playing the ball or otherwise losing possession prior to the foul? You can't call advantage when the ball is headed out of play, correct?

And, as a corollary, how late is late?

This type of play bothers me because if a call is not made (and I didn't call anything in the above example), I feel it can or has lead to some bad feelings among the players, and the game getting 'chippier' and more difficult to manage.

Any guidance or guidelines for these situations would be greatly appreciated.

First, can you card her and not give the PK? Absolutely. If you determine the ball was out of play before contact was made then it cannot be a foul and can only be misconduct. In such a case you would issue the caution for the misconduct and the restart would remain unchanged. Now, that said, while this is totally justifiable under the LOTG, it will be a tough one to sell in many cases so a little extra explanation to the player might help.

An alternative to issuing a caution that might still quell the feelings of the players and coaches would be to simply call the player aside and let her know in no uncertain terms that she is responsible for controlling her own body and knowing when to pull off if she can't make it in time. Let her know that this type of challenge could lead to a caution. Personally this is the option I prefer in cases like you've described.

[IASocFan]

...attacker with the ball inside the PA mis-hits the ball which heads harmlessly out of touch for a GK. A defender, clearly two steps late, shoulder charges into the attacker, knocking her off her feet. ..
Naturally, the parents are screaming for a PK, which I don't see that I can reward as the ball was already out of play, or headed that way. I realize that if I thought it was a cardable offense, I could card the individual - but here is the sticking point for me...is it OK to card someone for a late foul in the box and not award a penalty?

Would the proper procedure be to whistle the foul, give the card, or at least talk to the offending player, but allow the play to continue as though the foul didn't happen - meaning in this case, a goal kick? I have in the past rewarded free kicks, but feel that is incorrect - why reward the offensive player for mis-playing the ball or otherwise losing possession prior to the foul? You can't call advantage when the ball is headed out of play, correct?

And, as a corollary, how late is late?

...

a lot of this is the OPINION of the REFEREE. If the ball is out of play when the contact occurs, it's not a foul. It could be misconduct or trifling. It was also a shoulder charge which is legal - if done with reasonable force and going for the ball. It sounds like this charge was unreasonable and the ball was gone. Was the defender off-balance from her shot and could easily go down or was there excessive force? (thinking point, not necessarily requiring an answer) For game management purposes, a talking-to with a yellow card for any future incidents or a straight yellow card may be appropriate. It's a judgement call.

If you decide that it was foul worthy and the ball was still in-play, it's PK time, and I would go with the talkiing-to and no yellow.

[PVancouver]

I'm pretty new at this, and am having a problem on how to handle the obvious late challenge. Example from a game this past weekend - attacker with the ball inside the PA mis-hits the ball which heads harmlessly out of touch for a GK. A defender, clearly two steps late, shoulder charges into the attacker, knocking her off her feet. The defender was an over-weight young lady who I didn't feel was being mailcious, she simply couldn't get there as fast as she wanted to or thought she could. (and as an old man, I'm sympathetic :))

Naturally, the parents are screaming for a PK, which I don't see that I can reward as the ball was already out of play, or headed that way. I realize that if I thought it was a cardable offense, I could card the individual - but here is the sticking point for me...is it OK to card someone for a late foul in the box and not award a penalty?

Would the proper procedure be to whistle the foul, give the card, or at least talk to the offending player, but allow the play to continue as though the foul didn't happen - meaning in this case, a goal kick? I have in the past rewarded free kicks, but feel that is incorrect - why reward the offensive player for mis-playing the ball or otherwise losing possession prior to the foul? You can't call advantage when the ball is headed out of play, correct?

And, as a corollary, how late is late?

This type of play bothers me because if a call is not made (and I didn't call anything in the above example), I feel it can or has lead to some bad feelings among the players, and the game getting 'chippier' and more difficult to manage.

Any guidance or guidelines for these situations would be greatly appreciated.

"A defender, clearly two steps late, shoulder charges into the attacker, knocking her off her feet. The defender was an over-weight young lady who I didn't feel was being mailcious, she simply couldn't get there as fast as she wanted to or thought she could."

If you didn't feel she was being malicious, then probably you should consider the contact trifling, as the ball was already away and going out of play. A lot depends on how hard she knocked the girl over. If she was two steps late, didn't do anything to avoid the contact, and the ball was still in play (hadn't yet left the field of play), then a penalty should be called, even if the contact wasn't terribly violent. Maybe it wasn't malicious, but it was certainly avoidable. It's a "you had to be there" judgment call. "Naturally, the parents are screaming for a PK." Naturally.


"Is it OK to card someone for a late foul in the box and not award a penalty?"

Only if the ball was actually out of play at the time of the foul. The card is for unsporting behavior, the restart is a goal kick.


"I feel it can or has lead to some bad feelings among the players, and the game getting 'chippier' and more difficult to manage."

If this is the way you feel, then perhaps most of the players also perceived this as a foul and a card should have been shown, or, if the ball was still in play, a PK given, or both.


Since your attacker already had possesion of the ball, I'm not convinced the shoulder charge would be legal even if it were "early". Any late tackle can be called a foul, but generally a tackle that is just a little bit late shouldn't be carded, unless it is violent or deliberate (not an attempt to play the ball). The more time passes, or the greater the distance between the defender and the ball, the more likely the contact should be carded.


I suggest you watch televised soccer, and you will get the idea.

[IASocFan]

...I suggest you watch televised soccer, and you will get the idea.

You may also get some bad ideas for reffing youth soccer - particularly if you're listening to the announcers! You'll learn more by working with and talking to more experienced referees in your area.

GOOD LUCK!

[constructor]

Ditto on ignoring the announcers, talk with experienced refs instead.

On your situation, I'd suggest Law 18 here. There was no obvious malicous intent, rather it was somebody playing a bit out of control. In and of itself, yes, it is a PK offense if the ball was still in play and yes, possibly a card as well, depending on age/ability. However, many times in a youth league with players of differing sizes and abilities, you will often see somebody who's not quite in control. Recognize that player early on in the match and speak with them quietly before they get into the type of problem you've described. They'll usually realize that you're not "out to get them" and dial back the physicality before it becomes a problem.

In higher level matches, stuff like what you're describing is psychological intimidation (you can ask me how I know, but I'll plead the 5th) where a defender is making that late hit with the intent of intimidation of the attacker. The defender is gambling that you won't award that PK or a card (I know it's a cynical choice). You then have to make a decision on what to do because later in play, that attacker will try to get back at the defender to send the message that "hey, you ain't scarin nobody". This stuff will only escalate, especially in an older age bracket.

Basically, how you handle it in U12 Rec is far removed from what you'd do in U18 Premier.

[Sachsen]

Ditto on ignoring the announcers, talk with experienced refs instead.

[off topic]Especially Tommy Smyth, calling Darren Fletcher's red not even a foul because he touched the ball first. :rolleyes:

I used to really like Tommy Smyth but that was the last straw for me.[/off topic]

[DWickham]

If the challenge is so late that the ball is already out of play, then the challenge cannot be a foul. It still can be misconduct.

It rarely happens that way. Usually, the ball has been shot, the player hit, and then the ball goes out of play. The referee must make an immediate judgment whether the late challenge made any difference in where the shot went.

If the referee believes that the challenge affected the shot, it is not trifling, and the penalty kick is awarded (card as appropriate). That's the easy case.

Less simple, however, is what to do when the challenge (ITOOTR) didn't make a difference to the shot, but it was so harsh that it cannot be ignored and cannot be permitted to be repeated. IMO, the challenge might still be trifling to the game (since no goal would have been scored had it not occurred), but is not trifling to the players. The attacker is sore, and might be injured. The players need to know the referee will protect them from conduct that is not permitted under the laws.

The correct question, IMO, is whether if the same thing had occurred outside the penalty area, would we always call that a foul. If so, we must call it a penalty kick.

All penalties engender some controversy. But, ironically, there may be less arguing if the decision is penalty kick AND a caution. That demonstrates that this was reckless and unacceptable behavior by the defender.

[Ref Flunkie]

In general I give more leeway to a clearly clumsy challenge that really doesn't hurt anyone (or impact the game as a whole). I like to talk to the players in this case (ignore the screaming parents as always)....first getting the one that initiated the contact. Tell her that she needs to be more careful and control herself better on future challenges or she could run the possibility of having a PK called (I wouldn't really let anyone here this discussion but me). I'd then head over chat with the player that got knocked down (probably as they are walking up field for the GK) and suggest that the girl just made a clumsy play, but that you will be sure to watch out for any future late fouls. In general, this tends to let the "fouled" player know that you are actually paying attention while at the same time warns the clumsy girl to be more careful. I'm guessing this is not a higher level match and is at an age where the kids are starting to learn to use their growing bodies, so, as I said, I tend to give a little leeway if I don't see anything behind the late challenge. However, it is good of you to notice that this could impact the temperature of the match, so all of this advice is subject to change depending on the skill level, age, gender, and overall type of match that you are doing.

[boylanj64]

I suggest you watch televised soccer, and you will get the idea.

Televised soccer is about as far from this level of play as you can be, so if you ref a U10G game like you would an MLS match, you'll be in for a world of hurt.

As for your question, as everyone has said, it is in the opinion of the referee. Worth considering is that a player is generally going to be off balance after taking a shot, so contact may look worse than it is, and what would have been a shoulder to shoulder charge suddenly looks reckless, though it likely isn't. However, though it likely doesn't apply here, be aware that defenders at higher levels will key in if you don't call this and use it as an excuse to take cheap shots (speaking from experience). Look for contact on the inside of the leg rather than the shoulder as an indicator of intent (at least, that is where I always aimed). Even if you judge there was no foul, a loud "be careful #10" can help with game control.

[jkc313]

I'm pretty new at this, and am having a problem on how to handle the obvious late challenge. Example from a game this past weekend - attacker with the ball inside the PA mis-hits the ball which heads harmlessly out of touch for a GK. A defender, clearly two steps late, shoulder charges into the attacker, knocking her off her feet. The defender was an over-weight young lady who I didn't feel was being mailcious, she simply couldn't get there as fast as she wanted to or thought she could. (and as an old man, I'm sympathetic :))

Naturally, the parents are screaming for a PK, which I don't see that I can reward as the ball was already out of play, or headed that way. I realize that if I thought it was a cardable offense, I could card the individual - but here is the sticking point for me...is it OK to card someone for a late foul in the box and not award a penalty?

Would the proper procedure be to whistle the foul, give the card, or at least talk to the offending player, but allow the play to continue as though the foul didn't happen - meaning in this case, a goal kick? I have in the past rewarded free kicks, but feel that is incorrect - why reward the offensive player for mis-playing the ball or otherwise losing possession prior to the foul? You can't call advantage when the ball is headed out of play, correct?

And, as a corollary, how late is late?

This type of play bothers me because if a call is not made (and I didn't call anything in the above example), I feel it can or has lead to some bad feelings among the players, and the game getting 'chippier' and more difficult to manage.

Any guidance or guidelines for these situations would be greatly appreciated.
Was the ball out of play or not? You say it was then you say it was on the way out. The young lady in question may have your sympathy but if she was that late you have to call a foul and award a penalty kick. If the ball WAS out of play, of course you can call misconduct which would be entirely appropriate in this instance. She may not have been malicious but she was certainly reckless in that she knocked the opponent down. In fact, you could make a case for excessive force and a red card. You bring up a good point: you did nothing which sent a message to players even at this skill level that you weren't going to protect them and that set the stage for players taking matters into their own hands since you didn't do anything.

[Gary V]

If the challenge is so late that the ball is already out of play, then the challenge cannot be a foul. It still can be misconduct.

...

If the referee believes that the challenge affected the shot, it is not trifling, and the penalty kick is awarded (card as appropriate). That's the easy case.

...

IMO, the challenge might still be trifling to the game (since no goal would have been scored had it not occurred), but is not trifling to the players. The attacker is sore, and might be injured. The players need to know the referee will protect them from conduct that is not permitted under the laws. Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner. Good entire post by Dennis, I've copied the most relevant parts.

[imasyko]

Thanks for the responses. Much appreciated.

[NHRef]

Most of the above, especially as quoted a couple up, is great.

One thing I'd like to add. As you move up in the ref world and get more competitive/older games, your personality will have to emerge in order to manage the players.

In the case you outlined, I'd say the only bad thing to do is nothing. As described above you have a range of options from cards to PK etc. However I firmly believe what you MUST do, is address what happened in some way, hence teh "do nothing is bad" option.

It sounds like no foul/pk/card is warranted, however you have a player down on the ground after being run over by a late bump. You now have two players to talk to. Primary one is the defender, pull her aside while someone is retrieving the ball, make it known that she was late, you saw it and will be watching, reminder her to be careful. Adjust your message based on her facial reaction, at younger ages its pretty easy to tell if it was malicious or not.

Jog up field and possibly talk to the attacker who got knocked down, make sure she knows you're there to protect her.

[ref2coach]

I would offer that the order of intervention should be reversed. You have a player on the ground and the ball out of play. Move quickly to the player on the ground, with tone of voice and body language show some empathy for the player on the ground. Once that player is up and ready to go, then jog over to the fouler and tell the player the message you want to convey. Your actions demonstrate to Players, Coaches and Parents that your first concern is for the aggrieved player and that you are then also taking action to prevent further negative behavior.

[DadOf6]

There is a lot of "running into" contact in youth games. I ask myself two questions to clarify in my own mind what I should do.

Could the player have avoided the contact? If the answer is yes I will usually call the foul. I will even call a foul for U-little games (maybe not U-tiny). I will also talk to the player. Depending on the age and attitude I will put on either my "grandfatherly" face or my "mean ol' ref" face.

If the contact was unavoidable--should the player have even been there in the first place? Combined with the nature of the contact, the answer to this question helps me decide to let it go, call a foul, caution, or send off.

[DWickham]

The order in which you deal with victim/aggressor obviously will depend on circumstances, but my experience is that gender makes a difference.

With boys/men, you may need to deal first with the aggressor and with girls/women, you may need to attend first to the victim. While both genders will retaliate, the likelihood of retaliation by men/boys is the highest immediately after the foul. Few men check on their teammates on the ground. The team's enforcer likely is headed toward the aggressor.

The likelihood of retaliation usually is low immediately after the foul, but increases over time for the women. Moreover, the person checking on her teammate (hopefully with you) is likely the person who will be retaliating. By checking on the player, you have a chance to speak with her and her injured friend. This can reduce the chance of retaliation.

[Ref Flunkie]

The order in which you deal with victim/aggressor obviously will depend on circumstances, but my experience is that gender makes a difference.

With boys/men, you may need to deal first with the aggressor and with girls/women, you may need to attend first to the victim. While both genders will retaliate, the likelihood of retaliation by men/boys is the highest immediately after the foul. Few men check on their teammates on the ground. The team's enforcer likely is headed toward the aggressor.

The likelihood of retaliation usually is low immediately after the foul, but increases over time for the women. Moreover, the person checking on her teammate (hopefully with you) is likely the person who will be retaliating. By checking on the player, you have a chance to speak with her and her injured friend. This can reduce the chance of retaliation.

Interesting philosophy....I will have to try this and see what happens. Being male, you are darn right I want the referee to go deal with the a-hole that just ran me over before he talks with me.

[intechpc]

Interesting philosophy....I will have to try this and see what happens. Being male, you are darn right I want the referee to go deal with the a-hole that just ran me over before he talks with me.

Women are notorious for putting these things away and getting their retribution later. It's a very important concept to understand as a referee. I've already had a match where 3 minutes in a U18 girl completely cleaned out an opponent with a late challenge. It seemed so out of place at that point in the match that while I was cautioning I asked her what was going on. Her response was that this girl had done something similar to her in a tournament LAST SEASON!! Seriously, she waited a year to get her revenge?!?!? Almost made me wonder if I shouldn't have been pulled out a red right there.

[Ref Flunkie]

Women are notorious for putting these things away and getting their retribution later. It's a very important concept to understand as a referee. I've already had a match where 3 minutes in a U18 girl completely cleaned out an opponent with a late challenge. It seemed so out of place at that point in the match that while I was cautioning I asked her what was going on. Her response was that this girl had done something similar to her in a tournament LAST SEASON!! Seriously, she waited a year to get her revenge?!?!? Almost made me wonder if I shouldn't have been pulled out a red right there.

Oh I understand this part, that is for sure. However, I guess the female brain first wants sympathy and then wants retribution while the male brain is the exact opposite.