Would like a clarification from the cognscenti...

[imasyko]

GK runs the ball to the edge of the penalty area, tosses it out in front of him to punt it - in doing so, the ball travels out of the penalty area, where he punts it down the field.

I did not blow the whistle - figuring the GK had released the ball while in the penalty area and so it was a free ball and he was as entitled to kick it as anyone on the field at that point. The opposing coach was apoplectic - so that I was forced to explain my non-call to quiet him.

Was I correct, or should I have awarded an DK to the opposition for the GK handling the ball outside the area?

[PVancouver]

You were correct unless the GK did not release his hold on the ball until the ball was completely outside of the penalty area, and even then you could argue that the infraction was doubtful (if you and your AR weren't sure of the infraction because of your angles of view) or trifling (which it almost certainly was). It wasn't like his handling outside the box, if that is what happened, denied the opponent an attacking opportunity, or allowed him to gain a signficant advantage (a yard or two closer to the opponents goal from that distance is not significant, IMO). OTOH, if the handling was a yard outside the box, despite little tactical advantage being gained, the hand ball must be called because it is such a clear and obvious violation of the law.

[jkc313]

You were correct but your reasoning is wrong. It's true the goalkeeper never handled the ball outside his penalty area but you are incorrect in saying once he released it anyone could play it. If after he released it an opponent dove and blocked it with his body like in American football you would not have allowed that would you? That would be interfering with the keeper releasing the ball which applies to the entire process of the kick. Your explanation to the coach, if you decide to give one is either, he released the ball before it left the penalty area so there is no foul as he is free to kick it ANYTIME, or so what if he carried the ball a few inches over the penalty area boundary line? He gained no advantage doing this and the offense is trifling. Of course, if the coach didn't understand that the keeper is entitled to kick the ball anywhere on the field he probably won't understand the concept of trifling offenses.

[PVancouver]

You were correct but your reasoning is wrong. It's true the goalkeeper never handled the ball outside his penalty area but you are incorrect in saying once he released it anyone could play it.

I don't think that is what s/he said or was implying, but you do bring up a good point. If the coach was arguing that the ball was still in the keeper's "possession" well outside the penalty area, he would be correct. Opponents are not permitted to interfere with the keeper's punt until he kicks it away, even if the actual kick occurs well outside the penalty area.

[Ref Flunkie]

Red card/send the coach away by telling him that raising his voice to you is technically abusive language and if he wants you to call ticky tack things like the keeper stepping 1 inch out of the PA, then you must be fair and return the favor regarding his behavior ;).

[refontherun]

Red card/send the coach away by telling him that raising his voice to you is technically abusive language and if he wants you to call ticky tack things like the keeper stepping 1 inch out of the PA, then you must be fair and return the favor regarding his behavior ;).

I have coaches in rec and even high school complain about this. Even if the keeper was obviously inside the PA when he kicked the ball, and his momentum carried his body outside the PA, they think there has been an infraction. I have heard, "He stepped outside the box!" many, many times.

[Gary V]

Of course you can't reason with a guy like this, but if you could, you could ask what offense the keeper committed. Coach: "Handball!" Your reply: "But he is allowed to handle the ball inside the penalty area." Coach: "But he was outside." Reply: "But not while handling the ball." Coach still won't agree with you, but he might think it over later on.

[J-Rod]

Of course you can't reason with a guy like this,
...


I think you are right. If the coach doesn't know enough about the game of soccer to know that no violation took place, it won't help to reason with him. Of course, you can always try.

What if the goalkeeper did handle the ball just over the line? Mostly, I have seen referees warn youth goalkeepers and I have also seen a referee call a hand ball and DK for the offense which seems pretty harsh to me (even if our team did benefit from the call).

[PVancouver]

Mostly, I have seen referees warn youth goalkeepers and I have also seen a referee call a hand ball and DK for the offense which seems pretty harsh to me (even if our team did benefit from the call).

You say it is harsh but it is an infraction the goalkeeper is in complete control of. If s/he doesn't want to be called for handling, s/he can and should let go of the ball well before leaving the penalty area.

[imasyko]

The 'gray' area to me, after thinking about it some more, is that the goalie is still technically in possession of the ball after releasing it to punt it. And therefore, opposing players cannot clip the ball out of mid-air as the GK is in the act of punting it.

Or is that call more specifically related to the interference of the GK as he is making the kick, and not one of possession?

And the coach shut up after I explained why I didn't call the GK for handling outside the box.

I also don't understand why some of the respondents consider this a 'trifling' call, since it results in a DK just outside the penalty area - a clear scoring opportunity. That's why coaches are so quick to point it out.

[PVancouver]

Yes, he is still in possession, and cannot be interfered with, but he is not handling.

It is trifling in the same sense that a defender who slightly pushes an attacker in his own penalty area has committed a trifling foul, despite the fact that the sanction is a penalty kick and possibly a send-off for DOGSO.

[intechpc]

The 'gray' area to me, after thinking about it some more, is that the goalie is still technically in possession of the ball after releasing it to punt it. And therefore, opposing players cannot clip the ball out of mid-air as the GK is in the act of punting it.

Or is that call more specifically related to the interference of the GK as he is making the kick, and not one of possession?

And the coach shut up after I explained why I didn't call the GK for handling outside the box.

I also don't understand why some of the respondents consider this a 'trifling' call, since it results in a DK just outside the penalty area - a clear scoring opportunity. That's why coaches are so quick to point it out.

The determination of trifling shouldn't be based on what the result of the call would be (i.e. a DFK just outside the box), but the offense itself. A keeper who releases the ball an inch or two outside the PA has gained no real advantage from doing so and has disadvantaged no one, it was not a deliberate tactic or action and ultimately we just want to get the ball back in play, so these are the reasons you deem it trifling.

If anything, the fact that the attacking team would get such an advantageous DFK from you making the call is more support to let it go as trifling. It would be different if the keeper had already done this once or twice prior and is not modifying his/her approach to the punt. As an AR if I notice the keeper doing this, I'll give them a verbal warning the first time and tell them to be careful about where the release the ball. Then if it persists, its no longer just an accident and I feel better about raising the flag.

I'll add this too. Worse than the coaches clamoring for this type of call is the AR that pops the flag on the first trifling offense of this. I worked a U19 Premier match with an AR who has made it his mission in life to keep the GK's from holding that ball even an inch outside the PA. What was worse was I don't think he understood that the entire ball had to be over the line or that the keeper could drop the ball from within the PA but kick it outside the PA. He made 3 calls that match for the keeper handling outside the PA. Talk about a nightmare for game management. I'm sure we'd have had 3 more calls or even more in the second half if I hadn't told him what my expectations were at halftime.

[hradilv]

I also don't understand why some of the respondents consider this a 'trifling' call, since it results in a DK just outside the penalty area - a clear scoring opportunity. That's why coaches are so quick to point it out.

I think the reason it is considered trifling is because the amount of distance gained is small (~a yard at best).

Seems to me that a reminder first "Keeper, watch your line!" lets the keeper know that "Yes, I saw that you cheated - I'm watching" and the keeper will be more careful. If he abuses your kindness, then the infraction comes into play.

[ref2coach]

He made 3 calls that match for the keeper handling outside the PA.

This is stupidity on the part of the GK and his coach. The first call is on the AR, the 2nd is the GK's fault and the 3rd is the GK and his Coach's fault. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is stupidity. When I coached USYSF if you as a player made the exact same mistake twice I subbed you out and we had a, wake up, conversation.

[nsa]

John Ramos, 'keeper for the Boston Bolts in the ASL in the late 80's, used to toss the ball out at least five yards from the top of the PA on his punts and strike it before it hit the ground. He explained that he had to 'cause he was so short and needed every advantage he could get. :D.

[refontherun]

Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is stupidity.

I'm pretty sure Einstein used the word "insanity", but stupidity works.:rolleyes:

[intechpc]

This is stupidity on the part of the GK and his coach. The first call is on the AR, the 2nd is the GK's fault and the 3rd is the GK and his Coach's fault. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is stupidity. When I coached USYSF if you as a player made the exact same mistake twice I subbed you out and we had a, wake up, conversation.

Agreed but at the same time this is one of those things that as a player becomes automatic and you don't really even think about it. I think that's what happened to this keeper. Also, as I said before, I'm not sure he was actually doing anything illegal, I think my AR may have been a bit over-zealous and that may have confused the keeper a bit too.

[jkc313]

I also don't understand why some of the respondents consider this a 'trifling' call, since it results in a DK just outside the penalty area - a clear scoring opportunity. That's why coaches are so quick to point it out.[/QUOTE]

That's precisely why it IS trifling. The punishment does not fit the crime. Soccer is all about fair play and gaining an advantage. what advantage does the keeper get by carrying the ball over the line a foot or less? On the other hand for this tiny infraction a DFK is awarded 18 yards from the goal.. How is that fair?

[GKbenji]

I also don't understand why some of the respondents consider this a 'trifling' call, since it results in a DK just outside the penalty area - a clear scoring opportunity. That's why coaches are so quick to point it out.

It is the infraction that is trifling... very little advantage gained, game really not affected, nobody really ought to care.

The punishment for that infraction is far from trifling. Don't confuse the two.

[Ref Flunkie]

I also don't understand why some of the respondents consider this a 'trifling' call, since it results in a DK just outside the penalty area - a clear scoring opportunity. That's why coaches are so quick to point it out.

The result of calling it isn't trifling; it is the actual act and the impact of said act on the punt by the GK that is trifling. It is gotcha refereeing at its finest because how does the extra inch/foot outside of the PA impact the punt that the GK is making? It will add an extra inch/foot to the punt.....which matters why? All a punt usually amounts to is a 50/50 ball at midfield. The GK punt is almost as important as a throw-in, and we all know how little we care about the mechanics of those.