Hand Balls

[ColoradoRapidsGirl]

If the ball is served up by a opposing team just outside the penalty box and the goalie steps outside dribbles it in and picks it up; Is this a handball?

[MassachusettsRef]

No. As you describe it, what the keeper did is perfectly legal.

And congratulations, you might have just started the first two-post thread in the referee forum in a long time. At least, I hope so...

[code1390]

Sorry Mass ref. :D

[MassachusettsRef]

Hey, I had to try!

[jkc313]

If the ball is served up by a opposing team just outside the penalty box and the goalie steps outside dribbles it in and picks it up; Is this a handball?
It's a handball but it's not the direct free kick foul of deliberately handling the ball. the keeper is free to go collect any ball outside his own penalty area, dribble it back into his penalty area and pick it up with his hands unless 1. The ball was deliberately kicked to him by a teammate, 2. The ball was thrown-in by a teammate, or 3. The ball was previously released by the keeper from his hands and had not touched any other player. If the keeper dribbles the ball into his penalty area after receiving the ball from one of the 3 methods listed above it is still NOT the DFK foul deliberately handling the ball, which you refer to as a "handball". The keeper can NEVER be guilty of this inside his own penalty area. The punishment for any keeper handling violations inside his own penalty area is an INDIRECT free kick, never ever a penalty kick. In fact, for ANY keeper handling violation anywhere on the field a penalty kick may never ever be awarded.

[ColumbusSoccerRef]

It's a handball but it's not the direct free kick foul of deliberately handling the ball. the keeper is free to go collect any ball outside his own penalty area, dribble it back into his penalty area and pick it up with his hands unless 1. The ball was deliberately kicked to him by a teammate, <snip>

To clarify your comments. . .the ball no longer has to be kicked "to the goalkeeper". If the ball is deliberately kicked by a teammate and the goalkeeper picks it up, you blow the whistle and award the IFK. This was spelled out in a position paper from 5/21/08. Look for "'Pass Back' Violation" with that date at http://www.ussoccer.com/laws/papers.jsp.html

-- CSR

[jkc313]

To clarify your comments. . .the ball no longer has to be kicked "to the goalkeeper". If the ball is deliberately kicked by a teammate and the goalkeeper picks it up, you blow the whistle and award the IFK. This was spelled out in a position paper from 5/21/08. Look for "'Pass Back' Violation" with that date at http://www.ussoccer.com/laws/papers.jsp.html

-- CSR
Here is what you quote.:

The offense rests on three events occurring in the following sequence:
• The ball is kicked (played with the foot) by a teammate of the goalkeeper,
• This action is deemed to be deliberate rather than a deflection, and
• The goalkeeper handles the ball directly (no intervening touch of play of
the ball by anyone else)
When, in the opinion of the referee, these three conditions are met, the violation has
Occurred. It is not necessary for the ball to be "passed," it is not necessary for the ball to
go "back," and it is not necessary for the deliberate play by the teammate to be "to" the
Goalkeeper.

Jim Allen says in Advice 2008:

When, in the opinion of the referee, these three conditions are met, the violation has
Occurred. It is not necessary for the ball to be "passed," it is not necessary for the ball to
go "back," and it is not necessary for the deliberate play by the teammate to be "to" the
Goalkeeper.
NOTE: (a) The goalkeeper is permitted to dribble into the penalty area and then pick up any ball played legally (not kicked deliberately to the goalkeeper or to a place where the goalkeeper on three events occurring in the following sequence:
• The ball is kicked (played with the foot) by a teammate of the goalkeeper,
• This action is deemed to be deliberate rather than a deflection, and
• The goalkeeper handles the ball directly (no intervening touch of player

Clearly Alfred is saying the ball doesn;t have; to go directly to the keeper which I thought was understood in that the keeper had to leave the penalty area. It should be noted that deliberately modifies kicked to to the keeper. So if the ball is kicked delibierately to a place the keeper can go get it, he may be sanctioned if he subsequently handles the ball

[ColumbusSoccerRef]

My point was it no longer matters whether the ball was kicked "to the goalkeeper".

Many referees I work with still aren't applying the guidance from May 2008 (not saying you're one of them).

-- CSR

[Ref Flunkie]

My point was it no longer matters whether the ball was kicked "to the goalkeeper".

Many referees I work with still aren't applying the guidance from May 2008 (not saying you're one of them).

-- CSR

I'm running into this problem too (even though I'm planning to be somewhat lenient on this once I get back out on the field). In your opinion, is a ball that is deliberately kicked, but doesn't go where the kicker thinks it's going to go (i.e. a "miskick"), and is then picked up by his own GK satisfy the 3 requirements JA outlines?

[imasyko]

Odd how these threads appear right after I had one of these calls myself yesterday. And thought I didn't know about the FIFA directive before, it verifies the call I made, thankfully.

U10 boys - defender at the edge of the penalty area attempts to play the ball out of touch over the end line to the side of goal. The grass being long, the ball never made it to the line, and the GK ran over and picked it up at the edge of the goal area. I called for the IDK to the offensive team. Had to explain the call after the game to the coach.

For whatever reason, I had never interpreted that rule as the ball had to be played deliberately back to the GK, only played by a teammate into the box. Just lucky, I guess.

[PVancouver]

My point was it no longer matters whether the ball was kicked "to the goalkeeper".

Many referees I work with still aren't applying the guidance from May 2008 (not saying you're one of them).

-- CSR

Unfortunately, not even the USSF is completely on board with this (witness the fact that Dunivant's kick away from Omar Cummings, easily handled by Donovan Ricketts, for which Dunivant was originally red-carded, was not to be considered as a backpass).

The other problem is the "to him" phrase in the LOTG.

So the jury is still out on whether "deliberately" modifies "kicked" or "kicked to him".

[Ref Flunkie]

For whatever reason, I had never interpreted that rule as the ball had to be played deliberately back to the GK, only played by a teammate into the box. Just lucky, I guess.

"into the box" isn't required either. ;)

[jkc313]

Unfortunately, not even the USSF is completely on board with this (witness the fact that Dunivant's kick away from Omar Cummings, easily handled by Donovan Ricketts, for which Dunivant was originally red-carded, was not to be considered as a backpass).

The other problem is the "to him" phrase in the LOTG.

So the jury is still out on whether "deliberately" modifies "kicked" or "kicked to him".

No, USSF is clear that it modifies kicks and not to the keeper. That said, they then go to great lengths to say this rule was instituted to stop time wasting and you ignore a miskicked or misdirected ball. We had a good one recently where the sweeper deliberately kicks the ball trying to get it out of the penalty area but didn't kick it with enough force to clear it so the keeper ran and grabbed it before an opponent could play it. Ball was deliberately kicked to an area where the keeper could collect it and the keeper then handled it. I eventually came to the conclusion the ball was miskicked and the keeper could handle it but would have been happier had the keeper kicked it. At higher levels of play this is almost never called as it's obvious that referees are considering "to the keeper" which, I think, is what IFAB had in mind originally. We're getting conflicting guidance and I think we are going to see this called differently amongst us until we get more specific guidance. My 2 cents worth.

[Ref Flunkie]

No, USSF is clear that it modifies kicks and not to the keeper. That said, they then go to great lengths to say this rule was instituted to stop time wasting and you ignore a miskicked or misdirected ball. We had a good one recently where the sweeper deliberately kicks the ball trying to get it out of the penalty area but didn't kick it with enough force to clear it so the keeper ran and grabbed it before an opponent could play it. Ball was deliberately kicked to an area where the keeper could collect it and the keeper then handled it. I eventually came to the conclusion the ball was miskicked and the keeper could handle it but would have been happier had the keeper kicked it. At higher levels of play this is almost never called as it's obvious that referees are considering "to the keeper" which, I think, is what IFAB had in mind originally. We're getting conflicting guidance and I think we are going to see this called differently amongst us until we get more specific guidance. My 2 cents worth.

Again, I would appreciate someone showing me where it says "miskicks" and "misdirected" balls are to be ignored. It seems to me you ignore deflections and that a miskick is a still a deliberate kick.

[PVancouver]

No, USSF is clear that it modifies kicks and not to the keeper.

How do explain the Week in Review that said Dunivant's deliberate kick was not a back pass?

Also, it is important to realize that a “pass back” situation does not exist because the referee has judged that the tackler did not “deliberately” kick the ball to the goalkeeper who then touches the ball with his hands. This was a fair sliding tackle that made contact with the ball and was not intended to play the ball back to the goalkeeper.

[rippingood]

Again, I would appreciate someone showing me where it says "miskicks" and "misdirected" balls are to be ignored. It seems to me you ignore deflections and that a miskick is a still a deliberate kick.


didn't this come up a couple of weeks ago on BS?

From: Alfred Kleinaitis
Manager of Referee Development and Education
Subject: The "Pass Back" Violation
Date: May 21, 2008

http://cds007.sj1.hwcdn.net/v7c5x3f7/cds/Documents/cms/ussf/PassBack_Violation.pdf?dopvhost=images.ussoccer.com&doppl=85c796f4cfc0bf31cf90bf618a803a295b453d50&dopsig=e0af3b6b6a487040647c2f22de73024c

...
The ball was neither deflected nor accidentally misdirected -- that is, the
pass was deliberate
...
So, I understand this to say that misdirections are to be ignored...

[Ref Flunkie]

didn't this come up a couple of weeks ago on BS?

From: Alfred Kleinaitis
Manager of Referee Development and Education
Subject: The "Pass Back" Violation
Date: May 21, 2008

http://cds007.sj1.hwcdn.net/v7c5x3f7/cds/Documents/cms/ussf/PassBack_Violation.pdf?dopvhost=images.ussoccer.com&doppl=85c796f4cfc0bf31cf90bf618a803a295b453d50&dopsig=e0af3b6b6a487040647c2f22de73024c

...
The ball was neither deflected nor accidentally misdirected -- that is, the
pass was deliberate
...
So, I understand this to say that misdirections are to be ignored...

Ok I can go with that I guess. "Misdirected" isn't the clearest wording I have ever heard though.

[NHRef]

How do explain the Week in Review that said Dunivant's deliberate kick was not a back pass?

Because that wasn't a kick, it was a slide tackle. If one can't see the difference there's nothing that can be said to change your mind. Just because a ball is propelled by foot contact, does not mean its a kick. USSF agrees with this, hence the week in review clarification.

[PVancouver]

Because that wasn't a kick, it was a slide tackle.

I will agree that it was a slide tackle. Dunivant slid, and there was an opponent near the ball.

However, Dunivant deliberately played the ball with his foot, and the ball did not rebound off his foot to any significant degree, so for me, this meets all the requirements of a deliberate kick. And this deliberate kick happened to go near the goalkeeper.

(Actually, I still think Cummings kicked the ball, not Dunivant, but that just obfuscates my example.)

Now, if USSF wants to apply a paper-rock-scissors mentality, where slide tackles topple deliberate kicks, so be it. But this wasn't made clear in the review.

Of course, you would have to also make clear whether or not the presence of an opponent was important. If Dunivant had slid and studded the ball back to his keeper without Cummings anywhere around, would this be considered a kick, a slide tackle, or something else?

[ref47]

about 20 minutes into the dc-trt match, trt is on attack. dc defender kicks ball away, directly at his keeper with pace. trt asked for the call. baldo waived it off. so, it appears not everyone at ussf is on the same page.