Is Persistent Infringement Dead and Buried? [R]

[KMJvet]

32:08 NY -33rd Minute. Foul Committed by 10-Macoumba Kandji, 4th of match. Foul Suffered by 2-Eric Denton, 1st of match.
29:47 NY -30th Minute. Foul Committed by 10-Macoumba Kandji, 3rd of match. Foul Suffered by 12-Ramiro Corrales, 2nd of match.



4 fouls in 33 min. 2 fouls within 3 minutes.

[jkc313]

Rarely see called on television that's for sure. But at a local level we've trained our referees to watch out for this especially when the obvious star player(s) is constantly being fouled by different opponents.

[boylanj64]

It was called by THO in Barce-Chelsea on Dani Alves this week, one of the only calls he got right, though I feel he handled Alves horribly throughout and allowing him to simmer like that because he was scared to confront him undoubtedly contributed to his problems. Leaving that aside, 2 fouls in 3 minutes or 4 in 33 does not necessarily mean PI was present.

[code1390]

Not as dead as FRD.

[KMJvet]

2 fouls in 3 minutes or 4 in 33 does not necessarily mean PI was present.

Not "or" but "and." 4 in 33 is pretty much on pace to have 12 fouls singlehandedly in a match. I think this same player had another at min 41.
That's 5 fouls in a half by one player. It seems to me if that's no "persisent" what is?

[MassachusettsRef]

I think it was much more dead several years ago. You actually see it called quite more often now in MLS and some other leagues than it used to be, say, in the 90s (which was essentially never). Of course, it doesn't help that commentators almost never recognize it... how many times do you hear "well, he had several worse fouls than that--not sure why that one was a card?"

Anyway, I will also say to those that don't ref--I've always thought this is one of the hardest Laws to call/apply/enforce in a heated match. Yes, it's on the books. PI is just as bad, theoretically, as one hard reckless UB foul. But, in practice, for the players on the field, it's not. And, in a heated match, it can also just be hard to keep track off, despite how obvious it might be to outside observers. In a very physical game with a lot of tackles flying in, it might just be that the referee doesn't really notice OR he does and just doesn't feel like he can justify/afford a card on a "soft" foul--even though, by the Law, the card is for the totality of the fouls.

I personally remember a U18 semi I had at regionals several years ago... match was in 100 degree heat, went 120 minutes + shootout, had 2 penalties during regular play, and had 5 cautions. In the assessment, the assessor (someone considered in "the powers that be" nationally and someone I respect highly) only had one real criticism for me. I had let one player foul 9 times without ever cautioning him. He asked me if I knew it and, if I did, why I didn't do anything about it. I said I did (sort of--I probably would have guessed he had 6-7 fouls). And I said I didn't caution him because, despite knowing the PI Law, I just didn't think the players would accept a caution on him because none of his fouls were bad or really even close to tactical. Not only that, but the player in question was the captain and central midfielder of one of the teams and I built a great working rapport with him early in the match--I didn't think awarding him a cheap caution was worth the trouble. To this day, I really don't know if the assessor just wanted me to "think about it" or if he totally disagreed with my mentality. Either way, I don't think I'm out of line when I say my mentality isn't way outside the norm.

[boylanj64]

MassRef, I agree. If I feel PI building, I always try to make it clear what is going to happen on the previous foul by calling the player over, telling him he's playing too chippy, and that he'll get a card if he doesn't settle down. If you don't, I completely agree that players may look at you like you've lost your mind when you go yellow for a niggling foul, but if you take the preventive step of asking him to change his behavior, you'll have a much easier time selling the PI. Of course, that requires identifying the PI a foul earlier than you might otherwise.

[refmedic]

I agree that warning the player is a good idea and letting him know what is to come might be beneficial, too. You shouldn't tell any player, though, that if he commits another foul that he's getting a card, even if that's what your thinkning. If he commits another foul that might be kind of meaningless, like PIADM that isn't serious, that was really accidental, but you don't give the caution for it because you think it's not worth it, you lose some credibility. Players understand the difference between a threat and a promise. They will listen to and respect a promise. Players don't like threats, especially empty ones. Once you say you are going to give a card for something, you have to do it even if you don't want to. Tell the player that he is becoming a repeat offender and he needs to calm down before you are forced to do something about it, or something to that effect that isn't a "threat", but don't tell a player that you are going to caution hin/her for the next foul. Instead od putting the onus on yourself to produce the card, put the onus on the player to change his/her behavior. If they don't, then book them.

[Rufusabc]

Being an Everton supporter, I have seen PI called about a dozen times this year in the English game. The Toffees have one player (Fellaini) who commits easily 6-7 fouls a match. Some are PI level fouls, and usually after 5 he is warned and after 6-7 he picks up a yellow. I think he has 12-13 yellows this year. The overwhelming majority based on PI. I have also seen him commit as few as 3 fouls to pick up the card. He is the worst offender i can remember.

Steve Bennett seems to be a referee who I clearly remember making the pointing around the pitch gesture with regard to PI.

In youth games, I sometimes find it difficult to keep track of the infringements because of the liberal sub rules. Kids come in and out, and suddenly the guy playing right back is new, and hasn't committed any fouls.

[bluedevils]

To this day, I really don't know if the assessor just wanted me to "think about it" or if he totally disagreed with my mentality.

It depends which assessor it was!

[PVancouver]

Anyway, I will also say to those that don't ref--I've always thought this is one of the hardest Laws to call/apply/enforce in a heated match. Yes, it's on the books. PI is just as bad, theoretically, as one hard reckless UB foul. But, in practice, for the players on the field, it's not. And, in a heated match, it can also just be hard to keep track off, despite how obvious it might be to outside observers. In a very physical game with a lot of tackles flying in, it might just be that the referee doesn't really notice OR he does and just doesn't feel like he can justify/afford a card on a "soft" foul--even though, by the Law, the card is for the totality of the fouls.

I agree for the most part although I think most opponent teams are very thankful when a referee whistles a player for persistent infringement, no matter how soft the last foul was. I certainly don't see how the infringing player has a right to complain (although I realize they will anyway). I also agree that keeping track of this is very difficult. It requires extra powers of observation to distinguish which player committed the foul (beyond just red or blue), and it requires a good memory, which, unfortunately, I do not possess.

In MLS, could fourth officials be used to keep track of fouls, or do they have enough duties already? Do MLS officials all have expert memories and can recall every single foul committed, the time of the foul, and the circumstances of the foul, or is this a quality that isn't stringently demanded, in lieu of other qualities that are in greater demand (foul recognition, match control, etc.)?

[USSF REF]

The 4th official has too many other responsibilities. They cannot reasonably add the task of book keeping who fouled and who was fouled all game long.

Instead, it would be good to add a guy to the crew who sits in the stands and watches the event from on high. They would track this information, identify culprits who commit misconduct behind the play, those who run and hide, when the ref punished someone due to mistaken identity, when the ref should have sent someone off for two cautions but didn't, etc.

Using the radio transmission devices this person could share such pertinent and important information with the referee while the match is going on.

But that is almost an impossible likelihood.

[code1390]

Spurs/Everton had a caution for FRD and PI (I think). Maybe Lee Mason read this thread.

[PVancouver]

But that is almost an impossible likelihood.

It can't be any more impossible than having two additional assistant referees who do nothing but watch the penalty area and goal line.

[DadOf6]

I can't keep track of all of the fouls committed by 22 players. What I can do is notice if a star player is getting hacked and if one player has fouled 2 or three times in a fairly short time.

I assume that high level referees do the same thing but they are probably experienced enough and they study the teams enough (don't worry about Chris Klein, watch out for Attiba Harris; Angel and Morales will get hacked if we allow it) that they can do a better job that I.

The best way I saw an MLS ref handle it was after he called a foul he held up the restart, went to the player, held up one finger, pointed to a spot on the field, and said, "one over there." Then he did the same thing with two fingers and said, "two over there." Three fingers, "three over there."

That was all he said. No threat, no promise, but it did the job.

[DadOf6]

I might also point out that the way the cards are identified leaves much to be desired. Someone in the press box makes an educated guess and makes a selection from a drop down list.

My guess is that there are PI card given but we see tham on the game report as a reckless tackle, and reported in news articles as "soft" yellows.

[PVancouver]

I agree a more accurate reporting of reasons for cards would be helpful, especially in cases of PI. Especially annoying is that no rationale is reported for second yellow cards. Only the red card is reported, and the reason reported reason for the card is a 2nd caution :( .

[Nashvillian]

This will probably drive some of the posters in the "hand signals" thread crazy, but it sure would be nice sometimes, if only for the ARs who record the cards for themselves and are asked by the coaches/spectators, if the referee would hold up a finger or several for the number of the category of the caution...
one finger for Unsporting Behavior,
the peace sign for Dissent,
three fingers for Persistent Infringement,
four fingers for Delaying the Restart,
all five for Failure to Respect the Distance,
and a closed fist for Entering/Re-Entering the Field Without Permission or for Leaving the Field Without Permission.

It would certainly help the announcers understand what's happening, as well.

It would not have to be something that is required of the referee... just something that, if it's not too much trouble, the referee could do to let everyone know what is happening.

(In high school, it would also save that annoying mandatory trip to the bench area to report to both coaches the reason for the caution.)

[boylanj64]

The 4th official has too many other responsibilities. They cannot reasonably add the task of book keeping who fouled and who was fouled all game long.

Instead, it would be good to add a guy to the crew who sits in the stands and watches the event from on high. They would track this information, identify culprits who commit misconduct behind the play, those who run and hide, when the ref punished someone due to mistaken identity, when the ref should have sent someone off for two cautions but didn't, etc.

Using the radio transmission devices this person could share such pertinent and important information with the referee while the match is going on.

But that is almost an impossible likelihood.

Almost impossible, and also gets too close to the idea of video review for me - if you're not on the pitch, how can you possibly know if a series of fouls have risen to the level of PI as well as the ref on the pitch.

However, this does make me wonder, what exactly does the 5th official at the World Cup do?

[Gary V]

However, this does make me wonder, what exactly does the 5th official at the World Cup do?Waits for an AR to get hurt.

FIFA referee grade 1 is a center and 2 is an AR. The 4th official is usually an R. They didn't want someone who perhaps had not run a line at that level for several years coming into the game if an AR had to excuse himself.