How long can you wait to still go back and get it right??

[intechpc]

OK so had a very interesting (and unfortunate) situation during a tournament semi-final this weekend. Red vs Blue, two very skilled (to surprising levels actually) U14B teams and I'm running the line as AR 2. It's a very physical game and very fast. In about the 12 minute the referee blows for a PK to be taken by Red. Red takes the kick and buries it in the net and the fans erupt. I'm running back to my line when I hear the referee saying there was encroachment by Red. I turn around to go back to my position only to see that the referee has awarded a GOAL KICK :confused: and blue team takes the kick quickly. So I never got the chance to get the referee's attention before the restart to correct him on what the restart should be.

My question is, how long can you go and still bring it back. At the time, I rushed back to position because the ball was now in play again and so I needed to be there, I felt. Also had in the back of my head the concept of issuing a caution and not being able to do so past the next restart.

In retrospect, I am wondering now if I should have tried to get his attention after the goal kick to have him bring it back for the re-kick. What are your thoughts. How long into the restart of play would you continue to try to get his attention to correct the situation?

As an aside, there is, of course, another issue here and that's how did I not catch the referee calling encroachment until Blue was already taking the kick. I'm not sure if I didn't hear him because of the fans. I'm not sure he ever blew his whistle. I'm thinking I probably turned away too quickly to get back to my line and should have watched him longer and waited for him to signal goal. But these are all things I'll have to analyze and figure out what I should have done differently.

[PVancouver]

Once the ball is put into play (a goal kick is taken and the ball leaves the penalty area), the referee cannot change the restart.

Legally, anyway.

Since he has already blown the legal restart, I'll leave it up to others to debate whether or not play should be stopped regardless. In this case, two wrongs may in fact make a right.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about missing the encroachment call. It is very unlikely that you would have been able to know that the center ref told the goalkeeper to take a goal kick, even if you were paying more attention. There wasn't any reason for you to suspect that he might do that.

[NHRef]

Hmmm this could get interesting. I see a few issues here:

- the GK restart, as you say, is wrong. Once the GK happens however, you are "stuck". Unfortunately this also makes the game protestable.

On the second issue of how this happened, it comes down to communication with the AR/CR. In my opinion, he should have been blasting on his whistle to get everyones attention, including yours. Additionally, the ball went into the net, so you both should have been establishing eye contact.

On the timing for you to get his attention, you need to do what it takes to keep him from making the mistake, jump up and down, flag, yell whatever it takes.

[boylanj64]

I would reply with a caveat I sometimes use when players restart play and I'm not ready - I had begun blowing my whistle to stop the restart before they kicked it, it just took me thirty seconds to get air out of it. As a practical matter, it is obviously ridiculous, but by the letter of the law it is viable. As AR however, this isn't like a caution - it is more like a ball out of play, IMO, and so I would have put my flag up to signal the ball out of play and shouted at the ref. How long, I'm not really sure, but I think most of us would agree we'd rather be right than look good.

[jayhonk]

Once the ball is put into play (a goal kick is taken and the ball leaves the penalty area), the referee cannot change the restart.

Since he has already blown the legal restart, I'll leave it up to others to debate whether or not play should be stopped regardless. In this case, two wrongs may in fact make a right.
I agree with PV's implication that there may be a window of time to fix this, post goal kick. However, practically speaking, that window closes very rapidly, and by 10 seconds (I would suggest) it is closed. So, if the kick came down your side, so the CR was facing you, maybe the ref team gets away with you waving your flag, whistle, conference, and re-take. But if the kick goes the other direction, you are sunk because you would have to wave wildly, get the other AR to mirror, ref notices the other AR, he points to you, Ref changes his attention, run over to conference, retake. Total mess.

(I would screw this up if I were in your shoes because I always have to mentally review the restart rules on PKs. And I wouldn't have been sure of the right re-start till after 10 seconds.)

[Ref Flunkie]

I disagree with those that say once the ball was put into play, you can't go back. It was NEVER put into play because it was an incorrect restart. IMO, as long as someone on the referee team recognizes the issue, you can go back and fix it until the next stop/restart (at which point, you've lost your chance IMO). I'm with boylanj64, I would have popped my flag and gotten his attention in whatever way I could.

[whistleblowerusa]

The ball was not put into play properly and play should have been stopped to properly place the ball into play. This is very much like the wrong signal given for an IDFK or DFK and needing to stop play and take the re-kick. However, the restart is practically the exact same thing in this situation and play should just be allowed to continue for the better of the game. To call the ball back just to give another IDFK a few yards more up the the field will only cause bad feelings between officials and players.

[boylanj64]

The ball was not put into play properly and play should have been stopped to properly place the ball into play. This is very much like the wrong signal given for an IDFK or DFK and needing to stop play and take the re-kick. However, the restart is practically the exact same thing in this situation and play should just be allowed to continue for the better of the game. To call the ball back just to give another IDFK a few yards more up the the field will only cause bad feelings between officials and players.

Wrong, ball went in to the net with encroachment by an attacker, restart is another PK, not an IDK. Very, very different

[Soccer7947]

Wrong, ball went in to the net with encroachment by an attacker, restart is another PK, not an IDK. Very, very different

Beat me to the punch

[whistleblowerusa]

Wrong, ball went in to the net with encroachment by an attacker, restart is another PK, not an IDK. Very, very different

You are correct for once. Good job!

[whistleblowerusa]

Beat me to the punch

The restart was still not taken properly and play can not continue. Since it was not properly started you can easily stop play and correct the restart.

[boylanj64]

You are correct for once. Good job!

Thanks, I do try! :)

[refmedic]

Agreed. THe major thing here is to get it right. THere's no way to save face here, so don't even try. I'm getting the referee's attention immediately, and that means running out to tug on his sleeve if I have to. If the PK had missed, then the GK vs IFK in the defending PA is trifling, at best, and it's no big deal. The fact that the correct restart here is to retake the PK IS a big deal, and as someone pointed out, a protestable offense if you get it wrong, as it is a misapplication of the law. THe CR needed to stop play, and inform both coaches of what happened (beacause they are both going to be screaming at him, and it's his fault for getting it wrong), and then go back and retake the PK. As the AR, it was your job to assist the referee in getting it right. I'm not going to ask if there was a proper pregame, but we have repeated over and over again the first part (or at least an important part) of the pregame for most of us, and that is DFU, or more importantly, don't let the CR f$%k up. The CR f#$ked up, and you let him.

If you both miss it, there's nothing that you can do about it. The question of how long this goes on is a real tough one. After the next restart, IMO, you're stuck with it. What you should do, though, is have the integrity to report your mistake. Write it in the match report, and inform the assignor. An error such as this could require the match to be replayed.

[ThreeCards]

Had something similar to this happen as an AR several years ago. The first thing I did, was get the goalkeepers attention before he could take the kick, and told him to hold onto the ball. When the referee finally turned to see what the delay was, I motioned him over and the PK was retaken correctly. Had I not been able to get the goalkeepers attention in time, I would have definitely gotten the center referee's attention, no matter how much play had transpired before being noticed. You can't simply let something like this go. If I had been that coach, one of my assistants would have made a run to the coordinator tent.

[Alberto]

The laws of the game are very clear. If the referee has allowed for the wrong restart he must correct the mistake immediately. In this case if the referee signals a goal kick for what was clearly a retake and the goal kick is taken, you have a protestable game. Very bad for the crew.

[intechpc]

OK well first of all thanks for the responses guys, good to see the discussion and I think I've formed some thoughts in my mind about how to handle this going forward. Pretty embarrassing to me that I let this happen and also damned embarrassing for us as a crew.

Pregame? No, none whatsoever. The wonderful result of a tournament situation where there's only 5 minutes allowed between games, referees are running between fields and tournament officials are standing at the sidelines watching their clocks. For the record this is part of why I despise that setup. Unfortunately it seems a necessary evil if you want to work games on big tournament weekends.

Report? Yes at halftime after I pointed out to the CR that he had given the wrong re-start we went over and talked to both coaching staffs. Following the game we also reported it to the Tournament Coordinator and the Referee Assignor.

As far as the match itself, the worst possible scenario played out. The Blue team ended up winning 1-0 so certainly the PK situation affected the outcome of the match. The coaches from the Red team were obviously upset but did ultimately understand it was a mistake and I was able to talk with them at length during half-time to win some game management points for the CR. He unfortunately was a bit of a deer in the headlights at that point. The tournament rules don't allow for protests so I don't believe any action could have been taken that way. I do know the assignor is planning to have a significant conversation with the CR about the situation.

All in all a sad situation which has me really looking internally at all the things I could have and should have done differently. As a grade 7 I feel like I totally blew this by allowing the CR to make such a huge mistake. What's really making me feel sick is that the CR is also a 7, so how two 7's working on a match like this can get it so wrong is dumbfounding to me. Well time to learn from it and take those lessons forward I guess.

If there is a bright side to all of this it's that there were 6 or 7 teen-aged referees watching the match right behind me. After half-time I came over to my line and while waiting for the teams to return to the field, I quizzed them to see if any had noticed what was wrong with the PK situation. One piped up with the right answer and the others had some Ah-hah moments, so at least more than just our crew was able to use this as a learning experience.

[billf]

Pregame? No, none whatsoever. The wonderful result of a tournament situation where there's only 5 minutes allowed between games, referees are running between fields and tournament officials are standing at the sidelines watching their clocks. For the record this is part of why I despise that setup. Unfortunately it seems a necessary evil if you want to work games on big tournament weekends.


Why must you accept this? Honestly? This was the thing that bothered me more than anything when I was a referee. Take your time and get it right. Its the player's game and and if you half ass anything you cheat them and by extension the tournament. Don't accept bad treatment from tournament organizers, you are a referee but you are not a part of the field and should not accept being treated like equipment.

[hefftheref]

i could have sworn that i read somewhere that a referee can correct things late, as long as an assistant gets him the information.

ie, in the Euro tourney last summer, a referee sent a player off. Play restarted, and then went out quickly, which was when the assistant had the opportunity to talk to him, telling him that the sendoff was incorrect.

am i crazy?

[boylanj64]

i could have sworn that i read somewhere that a referee can correct things late, as long as an assistant gets him the information.

ie, in the Euro tourney last summer, a referee sent a player off. Play restarted, and then went out quickly, which was when the assistant had the opportunity to talk to him, telling him that the sendoff was incorrect.

am i crazy?

Nope, a send off offense can be given after play has restarted, as long as the AR observed it and keeps his flag up.

[PVancouver]

The laws of the game are very clear. If the referee has allowed for the wrong restart he must correct the mistake immediately.

How, exactly, is this made very clear in the laws of the game?


This seems pretty clear:5.14 CHANGING A DECISION ON AN INCORRECT RESTART
If the referee awards a restart for the wrong team and realizes the mistake before the restart is taken, then the restart may be corrected even though the decision was announced after the restart took place. This is based on the established principle that the referee’s initial decision takes precedence over subsequent action. The visual and verbal announcement of the decision after the restart has already occurred is well within the Spirit of the Law, provided the decision was made before the restart took place.



The ball was not put into play properly and play should have been stopped to properly place the ball into play. This is very much like the wrong signal given for an IDFK or DFK and needing to stop play and take the re-kick.

The difference is that, presumably, the referee awarded an IFK and simply failed to make the proper signal. So the kick was improperly taken. That is why it can be retaken. Had he wrongly awarded a direct kick for an IFK foul, theoretically, the restart can't be retaken.



In this case, the referee should argue that he had actually awarded a retake of the penalty kick, but improperly signaled for a goal kick and told the goalkeeper and anyone within earshot "goal kick". Silly referee.