Tim Howard=Crap?

[bostonsoccermdl]

Originally posted by DasGooner
Tim Howard is the least of United's worries right now.

Pretty much summed it up.

-Yes, his form has dipped.
-He is still very good, and "didnt cost Man U the champions league."

1/2 the teams poor performance, overall finishing and defense over the course of games cost them the champions league....

[Coach_McGuirk]

Originally posted by Motterman
Yeah, but the truly GREAT keepers seem to stop some of those as well. I'm not saying Howard should have stopped any of them, but it would be nice if he could pull off the improbable saves too more often.

It'll come with experience though, and he'll be just fine....

Seeing as how there's been so much talk on this board and others recently concerning Howard's form and what role his defense has played in all these goals flying in, I actually put a little thought into this.

At first I thought maybe the best comparison was American football, where a quarterback has thrown an interception. Some interceptions are the fault of the wide receiver (didn't hang on to a catchable ball, ball rockets off his shoulder pads, etc.), some are just good defense, and some are, in fact, the QB's fault, no matter what. I decided this wouldn't work because that's just one aspect of a QB's game and there is more to it than that.

Actually, an ice hockey goalie compares much better. There are many good goalies in the NHL who stop all the shots they are supposed to and give up the random "soft" goal. Many of these goalies spend their entire career being called "good, not great" goalies, and the difference is the great ones steal a game every now and then. I think that's what a "great" keeper does: steals a game that he shouldn't win. Has Howard done that this year? He's made some great saves, but he's never really been under fire constantly where his great play kept United in a game it deserved to lose. Not many keepers for good teams ever have that situation, I know, but the great keepers seem to come up with the great saves fairly regularly. I really don't think Howard has been that kind of keeper this year. I think he will be, with more experience, but for now he's just a "good not great" keeper, as the great ones will make their defense look better and not look like an excuse.

[jonny]

Do you think Baia is a good Keeper..He is Garbage!!! He is called Mr. Blunder over there..F.C Porto..DID YOU WATCH THE WORLDCUP!! but he has a good..a very good front 4 in front of him...only 15 goals conceded in Portugal.....Valente-Carvolho-Jorge Costa-Ferreira! and good defensive midfielders...Maniche and Costinha!!


Manure has...Fortune...Wes...Silvestre---O'Shea!

Garbage players and lack of experience! and O'shea is a fullback!!

Dida and the 'GREAT' Dane...Dida was terrible in his first year and so was the GREAT Dane..it was that terrible but it wasn't THAT great..only showed potential!! It took him 2 years!! before he was considered.........a "worldclass" player!!!


Howard( has good potential)
C.Ronaldo
Ruud
O'shea(has good potential..at fullback!!)
Ferdinand( has good potential)
Scholes
Saha...all good enough to play for F.C Porto..the rest...GARBAGE!! Giggs and Kean are on their last legs!!! TAKE OUT THE TRASH!!!!!!!!

[Achtung]

Originally posted by Coach_McGuirk
Actually, an ice hockey goalie compares much better. There are many good goalies in the NHL who stop all the shots they are supposed to and give up the random "soft" goal. Many of these goalies spend their entire career being called "good, not great" goalies, and the difference is the great ones steal a game every now and then. I think that's what a "great" keeper does: steals a game that he shouldn't win. Has Howard done that this year? He's made some great saves, but he's never really been under fire constantly where his great play kept United in a game it deserved to lose. Not many keepers for good teams ever have that situation, I know, but the great keepers seem to come up with the great saves fairly regularly. I really don't think Howard has been that kind of keeper this year. I think he will be, with more experience, but for now he's just a "good not great" keeper, as the great ones will make their defense look better and not look like an excuse.

Sorry, but I cannot agree with you here at all. Howard has indeed kept this team in games we should never have won, and has singlehandedly given us three points on several occasions, especially since the Rio ban started. A couple of games that come to mind are the Fulham match from the FA Cup, where Timmy made several good saves late, including intercepting a late pass that, had it gone through, would have left the Fulham player a tap in for the equalizer. He also put in a similar effort a few weeks prior against Southampton, making several key saves late. The big one that comes to mind was a late shot that looked headed for the roof of the net before Howard somehow got to it and tipped it.

Tim Howard has been under fire plenty this season, and not just in the past few months. There were several other matches before that which we were able to win thanks to quality late-game play by Howard. He is already very good, and not too far from being great. I agree that he makes some fairly obvious mistakes, but certainly not any more than Barthez (who, I will reiterate, was a good keeper, albeit sometimes unpredictable).

[Achtung]

If I could add one more thing, I will say that hardly anyone in here (Man Utd forum) is blaming Howard for anything. We are giving him plenty of slack considering that not only is this his first season, but his two best defenders are out, and the remaining ones are looking terribly out of form. While I did think early in the year that Howard would have trouble dealing with the number of games United would have to play, I didn't think he'd have these troubles with his backline.

I haven't heard of anyone, in Manchester or otherwise, "calling for Howard's head". He's still our boy in the net, and I think he's gonna be just fine.

[18yardboxterror2540]

i'm glad that was cleared up. Everyone was spot on in their replies. As for my error on "costed"......lol, sorry. I was quite angry when I made that post. My friend and I still go back and forth over things like that. I guess I have to start remembering that she's the same person that insists on my boy C.Ronaldo not being a United player at heart. She has also rated him as crap in the past as well......


When it's all said and done, i'm pretty sure Timmy Howard will represent to the fullest and become a remarkable keeper (providing more experience) for years to come. Thanks for replying.......

[haven]

Yeah, what Achtung said.

Although I can't believe that some people here are suggesting that Howard shouldn't have saved at least *one* of those Man City goals. Of all of those, I thought only 1 was truly "unsaveable." I thought he really should have had 1 (the second, IIRC), and that two others could potentially have been saved. One would have been just about impossible.

Does this remind anyone of the second Real Madrid game? It certainly does to me. One of the Real Madrid goals was an irresistable finish by Ronaldo. The other two, especially the one at the near post, *could* have been saved... but would have been damned difficult.

Yet people here are stumbling over themselves to find a way to say that Howard was not to blame, while people were trying to crucify Barthez's inability to stop Ronaldo, one of the best pure strikers ever.

[Sofabloke]

I'm with haven and achtung. There _have_ been games where Timmy's saves have got us the points.

Unfortunately he last few games have been average - not better now worse. He could have done more on the Porto goal, if you can't hold it or tip it over or out at an acute angle, the last resort is always a clench fist punch rather than an open handed push back out. But it was a good shot, the two biggest crimes defensively were the soft free kick (Phil Neville) and not running back in with Costinha (John O'Shea).

It has been an awesome first season so far, the fact that it has tailed off to average over the last two games should not detract from all the previous games which have been well above average.

[Motterman]

Originally posted by haven
Yeah, what Achtung said.

Although I can't believe that some people here are suggesting that Howard shouldn't have saved at least *one* of those Man City goals. Of all of those, I thought only 1 was truly "unsaveable." I thought he really should have had 1 (the second, IIRC), and that two others could potentially have been saved. One would have been just about impossible.

Does this remind anyone of the second Real Madrid game? It certainly does to me. One of the Real Madrid goals was an irresistable finish by Ronaldo. The other two, especially the one at the near post, *could* have been saved... but would have been damned difficult.

Yet people here are stumbling over themselves to find a way to say that Howard was not to blame, while people were trying to crucify Barthez's inability to stop Ronaldo, one of the best pure strikers ever.

You are also comparing what's expected of a World Cup Winner to a rookie keeper with gobs of potential, but not much experience. As great as a keeper Barthez was for us, the howlers didn't inspire confidence and the one's we agree he should maybe have prevented or stopped didn't help his cause. Howard gets some more time because he has time on his side and has shown some great quality with his pure athleticism....once he gets through this year, we'll get a better idea how he'll turn out as we go into next year....

[Potomac Red Devil]

Originally posted by haven
Yeah, what Achtung said.

Although I can't believe that some people here are suggesting that Howard shouldn't have saved at least *one* of those Man City goals. Of all of those, I thought only 1 was truly "unsaveable." I thought he really should have had 1 (the second, IIRC), and that two others could potentially have been saved. One would have been just about impossible.

Does this remind anyone of the second Real Madrid game? It certainly does to me. One of the Real Madrid goals was an irresistable finish by Ronaldo. The other two, especially the one at the near post, *could* have been saved... but would have been damned difficult.

Yet people here are stumbling over themselves to find a way to say that Howard was not to blame, while people were trying to crucify Barthez's inability to stop Ronaldo, one of the best pure strikers ever.

Haven, I think the difference is that Barthez was viewed as one of--if not the only--weak link on our team last year. Remember, we still scored 5 goals against Madrid in the tie. We gave up 6.

Contrast that to our matches over the last two weeks. Not only have we been giving up goals, we haven't been scoring any. Particularly in the Citeh match. You have to blame our lack of finishing (as well as player selection) just as much as Howard's play.

They have all been mediocre. We shouldn't focus on any one problem, but all of them.

[haven]

Motterman:

You'll note I haven't suggested that United should ditch Howard. I totally agree with your point that he's inexperienced and can be expected to improve.

But while that's an argument for giving him time, it doesn't, in and of itself, excuse individual mistakes he makes. And he has been making mistakes - which many people don't want to acknowledge.

[saabrian]

Originally posted by Motterman
Yeah, but the truly GREAT keepers seem to stop some of those as well. I'm not saying Howard should have stopped any of them, but it would be nice if he could pull off the improbable saves too more often.

This means he's ordinary. Or going through an ordinary spell. This is somewhat different than suggesting he's crap as the original poster wondered.

[Acronym]

He's made some gravity defying saves you know. The defence has made him edgy imo. at 24 dayum!

We should spend some wonga this summer, no mickey mouse crap, or we'll end up like the mickey mousers (scousers)

[jordanz]

Roy Carroll says he intends to become United's number one goalkeeper 'sooner rather than later.'

http://www.manutd.com/news/fullstory.sps?iNewsid=55766&itype=466&icategoryid=120

[Acronym]

Competition is good, but Howard will be great. Maybe Fergie is testing his character. Most of the goals conceded weren't his fault, maybe the porto one, but why didnt Oshea react etc.

Again Carol is good but he boobed recently.