Draft of Drafts

[tpmazembe]

Well then we have finally accepted the inevitable and taken Zidane. Some will know of my almost irrational dislike of Zidane, but there is no denying that he has been a top player and few can question his CV.

I think my dislike is based on the fact that i have seen more of Zidane than any player so far drafted (perhaps not Baresi) and he has perhaps not been the game-breaker that I have seen in the likes of Cruyff, Maradona et al.

I think he adds further versatility to our midfield.Funny....I knew once we took Platini your team would be most likely to pick your 'favorite' Zizou.

I expected him to be the first active player selected. He is the most talented player in the world right now with the ball at his feet - simply amazing to watch.Wonderful player, and maybe the best no.10 of his generation; but like comme, I think that other 10s through history (and still available) have been more effective on the scoring front.

So we finally have our first active player. I think we'll see one more this round.

[argentine soccer fan]

Well then we have finally accepted the inevitable and taken Zidane. Some will know of my almost irrational dislike of Zidane, but there is no denying that he has been a top player and few can question his CV.

I think my dislike is based on the fact that i have seen more of Zidane than any player so far drafted (perhaps not Baresi) and he has perhaps not been the game-breaker that I have seen in the likes of Cruyff, Maradona et al.

I think he adds further versatility to our midfield.

So far this post wins the award for worst sell of a team pick by a captain. Comme, no need to apologize for picking Zidane. He is a great player in midfield both at the club level and for his national team, plus he is a World Cup winner. Also the second African-born player picked so far, to go with eight Europeans and six South Americans. (At least as far as I know)

I probably would have picked a couple of other midfielders ahead of Zidane, though. And if you will put Best next to him you have two great players, but I think your midfield still needs its tough leader who will carry the team.

[lanman]

Wonderful player, and maybe the best no.10 of his generation; but like comme, I think that other 10s through history (and still available) have been more effective on the scoring front.


And that was why I was loathe to pick him - great player but not a dominating no.10. Fantastic ability, almost impossible to knock off the ball and a joy to watch, but he never truly dictates a game.
Still, there are lot worse players we could have ended up with.

[lanman]

Also the second African-born player picked so far, to go with eight Europeans and six South Americans. (At least as far as I know)

He was actually born in Marseille to Algerian parents.

[argentine soccer fan]

He was actually born in Marseille to Algerian parents.

Ok. I thought he was Algerian born. So, unless I'm getting someone else wrong, it is nine European, six South Americans and still one African.

[lanman]

He has always said he considers himself as much Algerian as he does French (if not more so).

[argentine soccer fan]

I probably would have picked a couple of other midfielders ahead of Zidane, though. And if you will put Best next to him you have two great players, but I think your midfield still needs its tough leader who will carry the team.

Although, I just realized you also have Beckenbauer in the back, so that helps quite a bit.

[GunnersBT]

Well then we have finally accepted the inevitable and taken Zidane. Some will know of my almost irrational dislike of Zidane, but there is no denying that he has been a top player and few can question his CV.

I think my dislike is based on the fact that i have seen more of Zidane than any player so far drafted (perhaps not Baresi) and he has perhaps not been the game-breaker that I have seen in the likes of Cruyff, Maradona et al.

I think he adds further versatility to our midfield.


In fairness to Zizou and the other contemporary players, the standard of the average professional player today is simply a lot better than the standard of the average player 30 or 40 years ago. Physically, the players from 30 or 40 years ago can't even compare to modern-day players. Check out Bobby Moore's physical stats, and then compare them to those of a guy like Stam or Lucio. The players today are substantially bigger and substantially faster, which obviously allows a lot less room for any player -- no matter how good he is -- to create. Obviously, there is also a lot more cynical play today than there was 30 or 40 years ago. No player will ever dominate a game like Pele or even Maradona because, simply put, there will always be a player like Roy Keane, Diego Simeone, or Gennaro Gattuso there to put him on his ass if he tries.

Just my 2 cents. :) This draft has been a lot of fun to watch.

[tpmazembe]

No player will ever dominate a game like Pele or even Maradona because, simply put, there will always be a player like Roy Keane, Diego Simeone, or Gennaro Gattuso there to put him on his ass if he tries.

Just my 2 cents. :) This draft has been a lot of fun to watch.hey GunnersBT

Thanks for the input; keep it coming bro.

I'm of the opinion that Pele and Maradona are extreme examples that one should be cautious when using to advance arguments about the state of the game.....they are once in a lifetime type of players.

Before putting together a thoughtful rebuttal of your post (I'll have to get to it after work sometime), a question for you:

In your opinion, before getting hurt, was Ronaldo not on his way to dominating the game in the fashion you describe....even in the era of the D-mid?

I'll await your reply.

[Dark Savante]

TEAM D
Dark Savante - captain, Spartak, Real Ray, Mobile


Round: 4 (Week 4)
Selection: 2
17th overall pick

Player: Paolo Maldini
Born: 26.06.1968 Milan, Italy
Position: Left Back/Half & Centre Back (LB/CB)
Career Span: 1985 - present
Nationality: Italian
Caps/Goals: 126/7

Club Teams: AC Milan!

Profile / Stats:

World Cup 3rd place 1990
World Cup Runner up: 1994
World Cup Quarter finalist 1998
World Cup 2nd Round 2002
European Cup Semi Finals 1988
European Cup 1st Round 1996
European Cup Runner up 2000

6 x Serie A Championship
1987-1988, 1991-1992, 1992-1993, 1993-1994, 1995-1996, 1998-1999
1 x Italian Cup : 2002-2003
4 x European Cup : 1988-1989, 1989-1990, 1993-1994, 2002-2003
4 x European Super Cup : 1989, 1990, 1994, 2003
2 x Intercontinental Cup : 1989, 1990
1 x World Soccer Player of the Year : 1994

Maldini became a fixture in the Milan side at just 17 years of age and formed part of one of the greatest defences of all time alongside Franco Baresi, Allesandro Costacurta and Mauro Tassotti.

His finest individual performances were in the 1994 season. With Baresi and Costacurta suspended from the European Cup final, Maldini was switched from his usual role of left back to central defence and gave a masterful display as Milan massacred Barcelona in Athens. Equally superb for Italy during
the summer's World Cup Maldini was promptly voted player of the year by readers of World Soccer magazine.

Paolo retired from international level following Italy's 2002 World Cup campaign. In his years with the Azzurri he reached xx major international finals and rarely put a foot wrong in his 126 caps, which is an Italian record and is one of the highest totals an outfield player has ever achieved. Not for the lack of trying nor for faults in his own game, Maldini never won an international honor with the Azzuri, which is ill fitting for a player of such pedigree.

Maldini started his 19th season at Milan seemingly a spent force but alongside new signing and former international team-mate Allessandro Nesta, the duo formed the best centre back pairing in Europe. Maldini crowned a magical season by emulating his father and captaining Milan to a European Cup final triumph. More silverware followed weeks later as the club completed an emphatic victory over Roma in the Italian Cup final.

For years was unanimously considered the best full back in the World before making a switch to centre back. Sensational pace, a tremendous, clean tackler, superb in the air and famous for his runs into attack. The defender was a legend before his mid 20's! A fourth European Cup should cement his reputation as one of the greatest defenders of all time. Maldini is argueably the best left back the world has ever seen.

[argentine soccer fan]

In fairness to Zizou and the other contemporary players, the standard of the average professional player today is simply a lot better than the standard of the average player 30 or 40 years ago. Physically, the players from 30 or 40 years ago can't even compare to modern-day players. Check out Bobby Moore's physical stats, and then compare them to those of a guy like Stam or Lucio. The players today are substantially bigger and substantially faster, which obviously allows a lot less room for any player -- no matter how good he is -- to create. Obviously, there is also a lot more cynical play today than there was 30 or 40 years ago. No player will ever dominate a game like Pele or even Maradona because, simply put, there will always be a player like Roy Keane, Diego Simeone, or Gennaro Gattuso there to put him on his ass if he tries.

Just my 2 cents. :) This draft has been a lot of fun to watch.


Thanks for your imput, Gunner. I'm glad that you are enjoying the draft, and the points that you make are worth debating. But I dissagree with you.

It is true that today players tend to be bigger, but small quick players with talent still do quite well. Look, for example at skinny little guys like Pablo Aimar or Javier Saviola. They are up there with the best of today, so surely someone like Maradona or Pele, who (with all due respect to Aimar and Saviola) were certainly way above them in talent, could still dominate.

And as far as cynical play, if you think it is worse today, get a tape of Argentina vs. Italy in 1982 and watch how Gentile 'marked' Maradona. Or, I can refer you to the match in 1983 between Barcelona and Atletico Bilbao, in which Andoni Goicoechea purposely broke Maradona's leg, leaving him out of action for several months. Maradona was always hacked and so were Pele, Eusebio, and all the other great ones.

Well, take this for what is worth. I began going to the stadium since I was a kid. I think my first time was in 1969. In the early seventies in Argentina they televised one match every friday and I hardly ever missed one. The first WC I can say that I was old enough to be able to analize with a critical eye was 1974. In all that time, I will submit that things haven't changed as much as you might think. Given the same variables, like training and diet control, I think the great ones of the past would do quite well against the great ones of today.

[tpmazembe]

TEAM D
Dark Savante - captain, Spartak, Real Ray, Mobile


Round: 4 (Week 4)
Selection: 2
17th overall pick

Player: Paolo MaldiniHe, along with another player we will name tomorrow, was one of two players on our draft board for the next pick. We were quite aware that with Spartak in the mix there was a good chance you guys would take him.

Great pick.

Our pick tomorrow - unless we take a major turn - will be the "original" Paolo Maldini........

[Dark Savante]

He, along with another player we will name tomorrow, was one of two players on our draft board for the next pick. We were quite aware that with Spartak in the mix there was a good chance you guys would take him.

Great pick.

Our pick tomorrow - unless we take a major turn - will be the "original" Paolo Maldini........

;) Thought we'd take the new improved version :p but yours wont be one to sniff at that's for sure!

Funnily enough the Maldini pick was a 3 to 1 vote. Spartak played a hand but we agree, somewhat.

[argentine soccer fan]

Our pick tomorrow - unless we take a major turn - will be the "original" Paolo Maldini........

Hehe. If this is supposed to be a riddle, I think it is an easy one to solve.

Maldini is a great pick at this stage. And if the 'original' is who I think it is, then I guess the obvious selections for left back will be gone before we get a chance to pick.

[GunnersBT]

hey GunnersBT

Thanks for the input; keep it coming bro.

I'm of the opinion that Pele and Maradona are extreme examples that one should be cautious when using to advance arguments about the state of the game.....they are once in a lifetime type of players.

Before putting together a thoughtful rebuttal of your post (I'll have to get to it after work sometime), a question for you:

In your opinion, before getting hurt, was Ronaldo not on his way to dominating the game in the fashion you describe....even in the era of the D-mid?

I'll await your reply.

Well, this may or may not answer your question:

Personally, I think Ronaldo circa 1998 (before the injuries, obviously) was the best player ever to take the field. That doesn't mean I think he should have been the first pick in this draft, b/c the draft is obviously taking into account career accomplishments. But for me, there's never been a better player than Ronaldo in his prime -- "Ronaldinho" if you prefer.

Secondly, Maradona could still dominate today b/c he had the size and skill to be an effective withdrawn striker. I don't think Pele's attributes would translate that well. I mean, let's face it, the fastest guy in the world back in the 50's couldn't even COMPETE with the fastest WOMEN today. Soccer is primarily a skill game, but physical ability is tremendously important as well. If it wasn't, we'd all be talking about Steve Ralston as one of the top 2-3 American players. In my humble opinion, Pele was unquestionably the most dominant player in the history of the game. But in all seriousness, can you imagine him trying to outrun modern defenders like he used to outrun defenders in the old days? Ivan Ramiro Cordoba or Jaap Stam would make even a young Pele look like a 40 year-old Valderrama.

[tpmazembe]

Well, this may or may not answer your question:

Personally, I think Ronaldo circa 1998 (before the injuries, obviously) was the best player ever to take the field. That doesn't mean I think he should have been the first pick in this draft, b/c the draft is obviously taking into account career accomplishments. But for me, there's never been a better player than Ronaldo in his prime -- "Ronaldinho" if you prefer..So you are contradicting your previous argument that no player could be as dominant as Pele or Maradona in today's game.

Secondly, Maradona could still dominate today b/c he had the size and skill to be an effective withdrawn striker. I don't think Pele's attributes would translate that well. I mean, let's face it, the fastest guy in the world back in the 50's couldn't even COMPETE with the fastest WOMEN today. ..I think you have gone totally off-course at this point. You are presuming some revolutionary physical development that did not in fact occur. Please compare the relative size, speed, leaping ability and quickness of Pele and Maradona -- you'll be surprised at how wrong your assumption is. Secondly, the average size of the great withdrawn strikers / offensive midfielders has not changed as much as you presume....thing of the last 5 great ones (one of them is retiring this year). Finally, track times have nothing to do with it -- if they did Pele would still be one of the faster players playing today, with and without the ball.

[Dark Savante]

Well, this may or may not answer your question:

Personally, I think Ronaldo circa 1998 (before the injuries, obviously) was the best player ever to take the field. That doesn't mean I think he should have been the first pick in this draft, b/c the draft is obviously taking into account career accomplishments. But for me, there's never been a better player than Ronaldo in his prime -- "Ronaldinho" if you prefer..

Wow! A kindred spirit! I thought I was the ony one with such an extreme view on this issue!


Secondly, Maradona could still dominate today b/c he had the size and skill to be an effective withdrawn striker.

I think Maradona would make most of todays defenders and defensive mids (except Davids -similar size, more stamina and strength) look stupid! With the lax laws on defending in the modern game Maradona would run riot in his origiinal OM position. He'd LOVE to have played in todays 'attackers are protected' world. He'd win sooooooo many free kicks and have so many players red or yellow carded in a season, lol


I don't think Pele's attributes would translate that well. I mean, let's face it, the fastest guy in the world back in the 50's couldn't even COMPETE with the fastest WOMEN today. Soccer is primarily a skill game, but physical ability is tremendously important as well. If it wasn't, we'd all be talking about Steve Ralston as one of the top 2-3 American players. In my humble opinion, Pele was unquestionably the most dominant player in the history of the game. But in all seriousness, can you imagine him trying to outrun modern defenders like he used to outrun defenders in the old days? Ivan Ramiro Cordoba or Jaap Stam would make even a young Pele look like a 40 year-old Valderrama.

This I have to contend with however. The most complete player of all time would easily find away around the brutes that play today. Pele is the uncontainable force imo. How do you shut out someone who always does the right thing? I mean, what good is speed against someone who will use it against you? etc, etc only way you're stopping Pele is by injuring him.

[Ombak]

Soccer is primarily a skill game, but physical ability is tremendously important as well. If it wasn't, we'd all be talking about Steve Ralston as one of the top 2-3 American players. In my humble opinion, Pele was unquestionably the most dominant player in the history of the game. But in all seriousness, can you imagine him trying to outrun modern defenders like he used to outrun defenders in the old days?

Well, but if Pelé developed in this era, he'd be just as strong physically as any other player out there.

[GunnersBT]

So you are contradicting your previous argument that no player could be as dominant as Pele or Maradona in today's game.

Not at all. I said that I think Ronaldo is the "best" player who has ever played the game, not the most dominant. There's a HUGE difference. Pele and Maradona were both much more dominant than Ronaldo, as were Puskas, DiStefano, etc.

I think you have gone totally off-course at this point. You are presuming some revolutionary physical development that did not in fact occur. Please compare the relative size, speed, leaping ability and quickness of Pele and Maradona -- you'll be surprised at how wrong your assumption is. Secondly, the average size of the great withdrawn strikers / offensive midfielders has not changed as much as you presume....thing of the last 5 great ones (one of them is retiring this year). Finally, track times have nothing to do with it -- if they did Pele would still be one of the faster players playing today, with and without the ball.

I couldn't possibly disagree more. If you can't admit that athletes aren't significantly bigger, faster, and stronger today than they were 50 years ago, well...I just don't know what to say. Sure, Pele and Maradona compare a lot more favorably (in physical terms) with modern soccer players than the other players of their respective generations. THAT'S ONE OF THE MAJOR REASONS THEY DOMINATED AS MUCH AS THEY DID!!! But pit Pele against the superior athletes that exist today, and he's obviously not going to be as good as he was against inferior athletes. Really, I'm astonished that anyone could possibly disagree with that statement.

[tpmazembe]

This is my view, and not based on any scientific analysis (neither is yours).

I think argentine football fan’s context is appropriate here -- my vantage point is having watched football since the mid 70’s live, and with aid of extensive video library of tapes, as well as parents as passionate about the game as me, a couple of whom have played internationally (albeit for very modest teams).

Talent is not greater than it was before, in fact the argument can be made that talent is being subjugated for efficiency in the modern game. To my mind what has truly changed in the world game are player conditioning and tactics.

Considering that players in Pele’s time did not have the benefit of advance nutrition and conditioning techniques of modern day players, one might argue that today’s player is necessarily better. But,as Ombak points out, what if the earlier generation had the same access to these methods? On equal footing, talent always wins out.

But consider the other vantage point. The conditions under which the modern player plies his trade are different. Travel is faster and more comfortable. The boots are lighter, more flexible, and conform to the foot better -- my Hummels are light years ahead of the Patricks I so loved to use back in the day. The ball is lighter and has more movement to it -- anyone of us who has played over 15 years can attest to that (jeez, think of the medicine ball like ball Puskas started playing with). The field conditions in top flight leagues are more uniform and free of divots, and more forgiving on passers. Then when you add the greater number of substitutes, less restrictive offside rule, you get a sense that today’s game is in many ways more forgiving.

Most importantly, medical advances make it so that players can now recover quicker from nagging injuries they all carry. Moreover, players come back from injuries that would have ended their careers even 15 years ago.

The cynical – or professional -- foul is more prevalent today I concede. The bone crushing, end-your-career type foul was much more prevalent in earlier years. Players are better protected today, especially star players. Garrincha’s career was shortened due to this, and Pele’s almost didn’t get off the ground. I concur with argentine football fan fully on this point.