Draft of Drafts

[tpmazembe]

Alessandro Mazzola or his father Valentino Mazzola? Some say the father, who was a victim of the air tragedy along with his Torino teammates, was the better player. But they both excelled.
Good catch ASF. The Mazzola's would be the other candidates for best father-son combo.

[argentine soccer fan]

I've got Moreno as having 34 caps with 19 goals between 1936 and 1950

The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Soccer has Moreno with 33 caps and 20 goals. So there is a discrepancy of one on both counts. I guess old stats from South America are a bit fuzzy. We'd have to find a source that actually lists the matches and the goals.

For more info about Moreno, I can say that he was an inside-right forward who played for River plate's team which is considered the best Argentine team of all time, (I hate to have to say that about the gayinas, but it's true). It was called 'La Maquina' and featured the legendary forward line of Moreno, Munoz, Pedernera, Labruna and Lostau. Later Di Stefano joined this team. Moreno was considered at the time the best player in the team, the greatest among the great. Moreno later played in Mexico, Chile, Uruguay and Colombia, always with great success.

Even up to today, many South Americans consider 'Charro' Moreno the best player of all time. To give you all some idea of how people still feel about him let me quote some excerpts from a reader's letter to the editors of 'El Grafico', the most respected Argentine Sports Magazine. I just received this issue last week. It is the May 2004 issue:

(I am sure the writer would be happy to have his letter quoted. The translation to English is mine. To put it into perspective, he is replying to a commentary which was critical of Maradona and compared him unfavorably to DiStefano. The article argued that DiStefano was the best player of all time. I haven't checked if all the facts this reader mentions are true.)


I am a Chilean lover of football and especially of your magazine, which I buy every month and I read with great pleasure. I want to give my support to Rodolfo Servino, who corageously said what many football lovers think about Mr. Maradona. But I dissagree with him whan he argues that the best player in the world was Alfredo DiStefano. No, gentlemen: The best player of all time was Jose Manuel 'El Charro' Moreno. And to support my assertion, here are just three of many pearls:

1) He was part of the attack of the best Argentine team of all time, 'La Maquina' of River (Munoz, Moreno, Pedernera, Labruna and Loustau).

2) He is the only player who won league titles in four different countries. Five with River (Argentina), one with Universidad Catolica (Chile), Three with Independiente Medellin (Colombia) and one with Club Espana (Mexico).

3) In 1961, at the age of 45, he was coach of Independiente Medellin (Colombia). One afternoon they were playing Boca Juniors and at the end of the first half his team was losing 1-0. Well, he went to the dressing room, changed into his shorts, and came into the field. He scored two goals, turned the game around, and his team won 2-1.

Signed: Marcos Molina Lopez, Santiago de Chile

[tpmazembe]

Which players from Santos do you think should have been considered? I would say the two who would most merit consideration would be Coutinho and Zito.

Zito would be the Bozsik of both Santos and Brasil ’58. He played what we would consider a defensive mid today (volante), but with a lot of skill. Allowed the creative types to shine. http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Pressbox/5814/50bestbrpl/zito.htm (http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Pressbox/5814/50bestbrpl/zito.htm)

Coutinho should have been a household name and star outside of Brasil. If you get a chance to see any Santos highlights one of the things most people marvel at are the tabelas (give and go’s) between Pele and Coutinho….like they had been doing this since the womb….its an art that is rarely seen in today’s game and is truelly remarkable when done at the highest level (hopefully the Pele documentary to come out this summer will have plenty of these to show). Coutinho’s career was cut short by injury and a tendency for weight gain. Prior to WC 1962 Brasilians were sure that the tandem Pele-Coutinho would bring the cup back; but Coutinho, snake-bitten, picked up an injury prior to the competition and didn’t see a minute of action. He only had 15 caps for the Selecao, with a healthy 6 goals. http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Pressbox/5814/50bestbrpl/coutinho.htm (http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Pressbox/5814/50bestbrpl/coutinho.htm)

Plus, my uncle raves about him :)

But you are right, without having seen him on a consistent basis its hard to judge relative worth given his playing on a team that was elevated by Pele (Scotty Pippen comes to mind from an NBA context...)

A nice synopsis of the Santos team http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Pressbox/5814/30bestnatteams/san.htm (http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Pressbox/5814/30bestnatteams/san.htm)

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Thanks for the Moreno post ASF...quite nice.

[tpmazembe]

As for Liverpool players from the 1970s and 1980s, the comment about their poor showing on the International stage or even more importantly not being picked by the national team manager makes it tough as many managers compared WC records which is a little false.

Kevin Keegan was injured at his prime and couldn't prove himself on the International stage as such. But his performance against Berti Vogts in the 1977 European Cup Final and his subsequent career at Hamburg showed he had World Class ability.

Keegan was one of my favorite players growing up. His pace, vision and sense for goal where a wonderful combination. Plus, he seemed to enjoy being on the pitch. The problem may be that he, whether through injury or bad luck, didn’t elevate his national side in the way that the others on this list did. Maybe that is not a burden a player should carry, but coming from a traditionally football rich country its almost a pre-requisite.

Plus who do you replace to give King Keegan a spot? He really played a hybrid mid-forward role, so based on players taken…

Eusebio, Pele, Maradona, Platini, DiStefano, Zico, Gullit, Zidane, Best ……tough to crack into that group.

Team B could give up either Muller or MVB and add Keegan to partner Maradona for a different look.

It seems his place vis-à-vis this group is appropriate. Still, a marvelous player.

As for the others you mentioned, I'd put the onus on you kopiteinkc; who from those marvelous Liverpool teams deserve to be on this list, and who do they replace?

[Wingtips1]

As for the others you mentioned, I'd put the onus on you kopiteinkc; who from those marvelous Liverpool teams deserve to be on this list, and who do they replace?


as he said, soueness was a brilliant player. he was as hard as a coffin nail and could actually play a bit. he would be a perfect replacement for deschamps.

[kopiteinkc]

Eusebio, Pele, Maradona, Platini, DiStefano, Zico, Gullit, Zidane, Best ……tough to crack into that group.

As for the others you mentioned, I'd put the onus on you kopiteinkc; who from those marvelous Liverpool teams deserve to be on this list, and who do they replace?

One heck of a group to break into.

And I rate Dalglish even higher than Keegan.

Dalglish for Gullit would be suitable, I'd have Keegan on the bench.

Souness for Deschamps seems a good switch too.

But I am a little biased :D

[skipshady]

Maybe that is not a burden a player should carry, but coming from a traditionally football rich country its almost a pre-requisite.It didn't help that in his only World Cup, he came into the tournament returning from an injury, and he only managed one substitute appearance iirc.

How did he do at Hamburger?
As for the others you mentioned, I'd put the onus on you kopiteinkc; who from those marvelous Liverpool teams deserve to be on this list, and who do they replace?I'm not kopite, but I'll respond anyway. I have a soft spot for Kenny Dalglish, but playing for Scotland, he was invisible in the international game. But like Keegan, I'm not sure who he'd replace.
This has been mentioned before, but during the height of Liverpool's glory years in Europe, England along with other British/Irish NTs were invisible.

Between Pele's Mexico '70 and Maradona's Mexico '86, England made just one of three World Cups, and while they had the talent to win in Spain '82, their "play not to lose" strategy, injuries to Keegan and Brooking, and the double group stage format doomed them (England won the first 3 games, then drew the next two).

It's a great shame, really. West Germany made the group stage thanks to a dubious draw against Austria after they had lost to Algeria, and in the semifinal, there was that unfortunate incident between Schumacher and Battison. England vs France would have made for a more entertaining semifinal IMHO, especially with a fit Keegan.

[Dark Savante]

Keegan was one of my favorite players growing up. His pace, vision and sense for goal where a wonderful combination. Plus, he seemed to enjoy being on the pitch. The problem may be that he, whether through injury or bad luck, didn’t elevate his national side in the way that the others on this list did. Maybe that is not a burden a player should carry, but coming from a traditionally football rich country its almost a pre-requisite.

Plus who do you replace to give King Keegan a spot? He really played a hybrid mid-forward role, so based on players taken…

Eusebio, Pele, Maradona, Platini, DiStefano, Zico, Gullit, Zidane, Best ……tough to crack into that group.

Team B could give up either Muller or MVB and add Keegan to partner Maradona for a different look.

It seems his place vis-à-vis this group is appropriate. Still, a marvelous player.

As for the others you mentioned, I'd put the onus on you kopiteinkc; who from those marvelous Liverpool teams deserve to be on this list, and who do they replace?

In all seriousness

Daglish >> Keegan

King Kenny is the lord of the Kop. I don't think they'll ever have anyone better at that club.

[kopiteinkc]

In all seriousness

Daglish >> Keegan

King Kenny is the lord of the Kop. I don't think they'll ever have anyone better at that club.

99% accurate.

But it's Dalglish. (Sorry, a pet peeve)

I grew up wearing a red Kevin Keegan #7 shirt and was in awe when he scored two in the 74 Cup final against Newcastle.

When he was sold after winning the European Cup in '77 I was heartbroken. No-one thought a replacement could be found, Dalglish proved me wrong.

Kenny is the best player to ever don the Red shirt. No argument.

(Just don't tell my Mum I said that, she still has Billy Liddell's photo next to her bed!)

[Dark Savante]

One heck of a group to break into.

And I rate Dalglish even higher than Keegan.

Dalglish for Gullit would be suitable, I'd have Keegan on the bench.

Souness for Deschamps seems a good switch too.

But I am a little biased :D

There is no doubt in my mind that if Kenny Daglish had played for a major footballing nation he'd have been taken around abouts the 4th round. I've often wondered why Best is ranked so far above Daglish in the fantasy realms of the game when Daglish has achieved more and had more memorable moments during his time as a player then Best.

As for Daglish over Gullit.. I think Gullit's versatility would ensure his spot in any draft of this sort. Additionally, as great as Daglish is, he's small fry in the Land of Cruyff so I can't see where he'd find his niche in such a team.

[Dark Savante]

99% accurate.

But it's Dalglish. (Sorry, a pet peeve)

I grew up wearing a red Kevin Keegan #7 shirt and was in awe when he scored two in the 74 Cup final against Newcastle.

When he was sold after winning the European Cup in '77 I was heartbroken. No-one thought a replacement could be found, Dalglish proved me wrong.

Kenny is the best player to ever don the Red shirt. No argument.

(Just don't tell my Mum I said that, she still has Billy Liddell's photo next to her bed!)
whoops! Dalglish then. Sorry for the error hehe. Similarly a member of my team calls Nordahl, Nordhal .. I always meant to point that out :D

[Real Ray]

Hmm...one player who I tried to get a debate started on in our group, but was never able to develop any traction on, is Mathias Sindelar-I have not read the entire sub-thread, but it looks like he's still on the board, and that is a shame. I was sure someone would take him.

A player who I liked, who is still on the board (?) is Denis Law.

And the poster who asked about the Soviet player-he was part of our sub debate and was my pick as one of the subs-his pace would be awesome in the last 30 min our so of a match. He's another player who I can't believe has not been taken.

Another Italian player that I wanted some thinking about was Bettega. Health problems yes, but when fit he was a world class player-a wonderful player, who IMO rates as a sub in this draft.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who rates Keegan.

[argentine soccer fan]

Dalglish was an excellent player and a class act. But what is the story behind his leaving Liverpool while he was at the top of his game?

The problem with Dalglish, for this draft, comes when we look at the players he might be expected to replace. Our team has Pele playing the role that Dalglish would be expected to play.

We were talking also about Gianni Rivera, and I mentioned that I thought he belonged. But I didn't really find a spot for him. It is also tough to say which player he'd replace. Maybe he could play alongside Maradona in place of Bobby Charlton? But of course, Charlton is also a legend.

[kopiteinkc]

Dalglish was an excellent player and a class act. But what is the story behind his leaving Liverpool while he was at the top of his game?

What are you talking about?

He ended his playing career with Liverpool, became their Player-Manager, won the League and FA Cup double. A unique achievement.

He resigned as a manager after a few years because of health related (heart and stress) problems. But he had already retired as a player by then.

The Heysel (1985) and Hillsborough (1989) disasters both took their toll on Dalglish's short term health. He was present at both.

[skipshady]

Dalglish was an excellent player and a class act. But what is the story behind his leaving Liverpool while he was at the top of his game? Kenny was the player-manager in his last few years as a player.

Do you mean why he left as manager? I'm sure burnout had a lot to do with it. There was they Heysel and the resulting ban from Europe as well as the Hillsborough tragedy.

[argentine soccer fan]

Hmm...one player who I tried to get a debate started on in our group, but was never able to develop any traction on, is Mathias Sindelar-I have not read the entire sub-thread, but it looks like he's still on the board, and that is a shame. I was sure someone would take him.


Definitely another great one. He was one of the stars of the 1934 WC. But I guess it was predictable that players from the early days would get less consideration.

I read a story about Mathias Sindelar, how he (along with his girlfriend) commited suicide when Hitler anexed Austria.

[argentine soccer fan]

What are you talking about?

He ended his playing career with Liverpool, became their Player-Manager, won the League and FA Cup double. A unique achievement.

He resigned as a manager after a few years because of health related (heart and stress) problems. But he had already retired as a player by then.

The Heysel (1985) and Hillsborough (1989) disasters both took their toll on Dalglish's short term health. He was present at both.

Thanks. I used to hang out at an English pub in Buenos Aires where they showed the EPL, back in the old days, and there were a bunch of Liverpool fans. (I watched the Liverpool-Juventus final at that pub, when all hell broke loose at Heysel.) Anyway, later on, when Dalglish left Liverpool it was a big topic of conversation with that crowd. For some reason it came to mind when his name was brought up, and that is why I asked the question.

[lanman]

Could anyone justify Luis Suarez, Omar Sivori or Ladislao Kubala in any of the teams? I would certainly rank them amongst the best but I really can't find anyone for them to replace.

[nicephoras]

I'm a little surprised Carlos Alberto didn't make any of the teams. Also, what about Leonidas? He may have been mentioned.

[argentine soccer fan]

I wouldn't play Suarez over Rijkaard, Mathaus or Beckembauer. Possibly he could replace Overath. I hate to say it, but the obvious answer is Deschamps. I like Deschamps playing with Maradona, but if we have to replace somebody...

Kubala and Sivori I don't know, because we are so rich in forwards. The interesting question is, if Kubala had played for Hungary in the 50's, would he be in the starting lineup? Which other forward would he have replaced?

As far as Carlos Alberto, he was my first choice for the right side after D.Santos was gone. I like laterals who attack. But when we picked wingers like Mathews and Gento it sort of eliminated the possibility of attacking laterals for our team, and we decided to go with a better marker like Berti Vogts.

Leonidas Da Silva was mentioned on our team as a sub possibility. Ombak ranked him as one of the top Brazilian forwards of all time.