Draft of Drafts

[argentine soccer fan]

For team E, I think I'd pick Rob Rensenbrink over Ruud Gullit. Gullit was an awesome player, but I believe in wingers, and I think Rensenbrink would open up the game more for the team. It would leave the field less cluttered for Zico and Cryuff. Cryuff could then play a bit more forward. I think also a bigger, more powerful centerforward would make sense for E, but on the other hand I wouldn't want to take Romario out because he certainly has to be in this tournament. I guess this is a case where the team has to adapt to the great player. I am sure the great midfielders that E has will adjust to Romario's game, even if on paper his might not be the best style to complement that team.

[lanman]

Don't you mean Team D?

[argentine soccer fan]

Yeah, I meant D. The 'Dutch Total Football' team. Sorry.

Here is my very superficial, stereotypical monicker for each team:

A: Brazil (Didi and Pele as leaders, wide open style)
B: Argentina (Maradona and Passarella as leaders)
C: Spain (Ok, this one is a reach, but it has a Real Madrid base, with Di Stefano and Santamaria as leaders)
D: Holland (Dutch total football)
E: Hungary (Magyar base)

[tpmazembe]

I suppose if we use common sense to keep this real, a guy who was chosen as a player is not elegible to be chosen as a manager. Right?

Which team gets to pick first?
The manager need not have been a player (that would be too restrictive). No particular order on this one, select when you are ready.

[tpmazembe]

OK here we go:

Raymond Kopa

for

Marco Van Basten

I don't have any doubts that Muller and Van Basten could play together, but I think that Team B would be better served with a more creative striker. Other than Maradona there is very little in terms of creativity in attack (relative to the other sides), and I think with Charlton and Maradona they can afford to sacrifice one of their goal-getters. For that reason I am nominating Kopa.

Raymond Kopa was the creative spark for Rheims and France in the 50's, and formed a formidable parternership with Just Fontaine. He played both centre forward and, in his short time at Madrid, right wing (he couldn't dislodge DiStefano from the middle) and in 1958 was named European Footballer of The Year for guiding France to the Semi-Finals of the World Cup. Although scoring wasn't his main strength, he still managed 18 in 45 games for France. Kopa also played in the first four European Cup Finals, and was the first player to play there for two different sides (in the first two tournaments).
Kopa is one that does get the short end of most discussions. By all accounts a genius, and based on my viewing the Fra-Bra WC '58 game he appears to have a lot of Platini in him. Although your thoughts on a more creative makes infinite sense lanman (I think Muller and VBasten occupy the same space), it would be difficult for me to drop MVB out for Kopa.

[tpmazembe]

IN: Nilton Santos – this guy is probably one of the top 3 players at his position of all time. Period. It would be hard to find any football expert who lived through Santos’ era to today that would argue with him being a top 5 LB. How he did not make the top 55 is a mystery that can only be explained by….well…..hmm….no, it cannot be explained. The man defined the position until the arrival of Maldini and RC.

OUT: Marzolini – sorry asf. I’m sure Marzolini is a worthwhile player, but in the global context he cannot be compared to The Encyclopedia. Was he better offensively or defensively? Significantly enough so as to outweigh the complete package of a Santos? Without having seen Marzolini, I cannot state positively, but I find it hard to believe that he was more complete. Nilton Santos was adept at both – he played a very offensive LB, and was good enough defensively to have played at CB for club as well.

[Dark Savante]

For team E, I think I'd pick Rob Rensenbrink over Ruud Gullit. Gullit was an awesome player, but I believe in wingers, and I think Rensenbrink would open up the game more for the team. It would leave the field less cluttered for Zico and Cryuff. Cryuff could then play a bit more forward. I think also a bigger, more powerful centerforward would make sense for E, but on the other hand I wouldn't want to take Romario out because he certainly has to be in this tournament. I guess this is a case where the team has to adapt to the great player. I am sure the great midfielders that E has will adjust to Romario's game, even if on paper his might not be the best style to complement that team.

Resenbrink never entered our discussions as if we were to take a left winger it would have been Gento but, I don't believe in inbalance..if we took a left winger we would have taken a right winger as well and our team was never intended to take the ball out that wide, besides which wingers can often leave the middle of the pitch highly vulnerable and if they are good wingers they'll be aggressive wingers and that leaves space in behind them..If I were to go for wingers it'd have to be the type who have the ability to cut infield from time to time like Garrincha or Czibor, but with how our midfield shaped up wingers weren't really an option imo.

As for Romario, he was my sole responsibility and the arguement in our deliberations was about using a bigger, burlier type CF with a 5man midfield behind him. My arguement is similar to yours in that Romario is simply to good and too proven to be left out. He proved he can work with any partner up front and his cunning and precision is just too much for me to overlook in favour of other less reliable (in my opinion) strikers. I couldn't overlook Romario's all round technical brilliance.

[tpmazembe]

http://placar.abril.com.br/aberto/enciclopedia/craques/imagens/coluna.jpg

IN: Mario Coluna – the midfield backbone of the great Benfica sides of the 60s. He would be the Keane of his time, with the Vieira body.

Born: Lourenço Marques, Moçambique, 6/8/1935
Position: Midfield
Club: Lourenço Marques, de Moçambique (1954) e Benfica-POR (1955 a 1970), Lyon-FRA (1970 a 1971)
Titles: Campeão português (1955, 1957, 1960, 1961, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968 e 1969); da Taça de Portugal (1955, 1957, 1959, 1962, 1964, 1969/70) e da Copa dos Campeões (1961 e 1962) pelo Benfica

Stamina, strength and a posessor of a powerful shot, he brought Benfica to the verge of greatness (finally achieved when Eusebio arrived). On GOL TV I recently saw an interview with the then captain of Benfica who said of Coluna “I may have been captain, but Coluna was the boss.” One of the players that doesn’t get mentioned in the scheme of things and gets forgotten in history. Interestingly, upon further research, Eusebio began at Benfica the year after their first CL triumph…a triumph led by Coluna (he scored a scorcher from outside the box). If you have any tapes of those CL games or the Portugal games in WC ’66, he’s the guy controlling the midfield.

Consider 16 years of service. 715 games with Benfica winning 19 titles including 10 League and 7 Cups. 2 time European champion with Benfica and involved in each and every one of the 5 finals they played, and every CL tournament between ’55-’69. 58 caps with with 8 goals.
http://placar.abril.com.br/aberto/enciclopedia/craques/coluna.shtml (http://placar.abril.com.br/aberto/enciclopedia/craques/coluna.shtml)

OUT: Tardelli (so as not to pick Deschamps). Marco was a terrific player an all but hardly a midfield maestro, nor a born leader of men (not that he needed to be mind you). A Coluna gives you much more at the position in terms of passing, leadership and goalscoring.

[tpmazembe]

Resenbrink never entered our discussions as if we were to take a left winger it would have been Gento but, I don't believe in inbalance..if we took a left winger we would have taken a right winger as well and our team was never intended to take the ball out that wide, besides which wingers can often leave the middle of the pitch highly vulnerable and if they are good wingers they'll be aggressive wingers and that leaves space in behind them..If I were to go for wingers it'd have to be the type who have the ability to cut infield from time to time like Garrincha or Czibor, but with how our midfield shaped up wingers weren't really an option imo.

As for Romario, he was my sole responsibility and the arguement in our deliberations was about using a bigger, burlier type CF with a 5man midfield behind him. My arguement is similar to yours in that Romario is simply to good and too proven to be left out. He proved he can work with any partner up front and his cunning and precision is just too much for me to overlook in favour of other less reliable (in my opinion) strikers. I couldn't overlook Romario's all round technical brilliance.ASF, the guy who would have been able to provide some width and also a strong burly presence would have been Luigi Riva, he was a left sided player with penchant for coming down the middle and bagging goals (I believe he still is the Azzurri all-time goalscorer...someone correct me if wrong here). Plus he had a physical presence . Something astonishing about him is that he played 13 years with a relatively small club Cagliari, leading them to a Scudetto in 1970.
http://placar.abril.com.br/aberto/enciclopedia/craques/imagens/riva.jpg

You are right DS, Romario was an intelligent type and could basically play with anyone else who also had smarts. Imagine that one of his most succesful partnerships was with a man whose stature (physical) was only slightly greater -- Bebeto.

[Dark Savante]

You are right DS, Romario was an intelligent type and could basically play with anyone else who also had smarts. Imagine that one of his most succesful partnerships was with a man whose stature (physical) was only slightly greater -- Bebeto.

That's why I am confident he could play off Cruyff or Gullit with ease.

I'm going to add some ins and outs after some analysis.

[argentine soccer fan]

IN: Nilton Santos – this guy is probably one of the top 3 players at his position of all time. Period. It would be hard to find any football expert who lived through Santos’ era to today that would argue with him being a top 5 LB. How he did not make the top 55 is a mystery that can only be explained by….well…..hmm….no, it cannot be explained. The man defined the position until the arrival of Maldini and RC.

OUT: Marzolini – sorry asf. I’m sure Marzolini is a worthwhile player, but in the global context he cannot be compared to The Encyclopedia. Was he better offensively or defensively? Significantly enough so as to outweigh the complete package of a Santos? Without having seen Marzolini, I cannot state positively, but I find it hard to believe that he was more complete. Nilton Santos was adept at both – he played a very offensive LB, and was good enough defensively to have played at CB for club as well.

Well, we got Nilton Santos on our team as well.

Actually, we had the same discussion with Ombak, as he argued strongly for N.S. I argued for Marzolini because I saw him play and I think he is the real deal, every bit as good as Fachetti or Maldini. Both Santos and Marzolini were worthy players, and ultimately I think the decision came down to the thought that N.S. had a great reputation as an offensive lateral and most of the information we dug up on him was about his atacking prowess. We didn't really have midfielders who could cover for him, other than maybe Rijkaard, but Rijkaard role on our team is tough enough without covering for a lateral. And with Gento playing wide my thinking is that it would be a bit of offensive overload to add Nilton Santos to the starting line-up.

Marzolini was also good going forward, but he was known first for his great tackling ability, and I suppose he'd probably be easier to convince to stay back more.

We also considered a couple of Germans for the position, Schnellinger and Brehme. It is a very deep position.

[minorthreat]

My take on the draft as a whole:

It seems like what many consider to be the great all-time club teams are very well represented: the Real Madrid side of the 50's, AC Milan of the early 90's, and Ajax and Bayern Munich of the 70's all have had at least three players each selected from them, and even the current Real Madrid side provided a good supply for an all-time draft.

The only noticeable omission in terms of the all-time great clubs was the fact that - I think - not a single Liverpool player was chosen. I'm not sure what to attribute that to, but my guess would be that it was because the team's successes were due to two factors. First, the managerial geniuses of Bob Paisley and Bill Shankly, which don't play into a draft such as this. And second, a number of Liverpool's most influential players in those days were Scotsmen and Welshmen, whose reputations may have been curtailed by a lack of showings in international competition.

Equally well represented are the great all-time international sides. The Magic Magyars contributed a large number of players, as did all of Argentina and Brazil's World Cup-winning squads and most of Germany's (I don't think any of the '54 team was chosen, and Fritz Walter and Helmut Rahn are at least worth a look in my opinon). Somewhat surprising is the fact that only one member of Brazil 82's midfield was taken - while I didn't really expect anyone to pick Toninho Cerezo, it's still nonetheless unusual to see Socrates and Falcao teamless at the end.

Most shocking of all in my opinion in terms of national teams drawn upon, though, is the fact that not a single Italian striker was taken. While it's not surprising that the majority of the Italians taken were defenders, I still find it unbelievable that of roughly 33 strikers chosen, not one wore the famous blue shirt, particularly considering that there are at least two of the Azzurri that belong in the top 20 of all-time strikers (Roberto Baggio and Paolo Rossi).

[minorthreat]

Finally, a few notes on geographical distribution: it is perhaps not surprising that all the players selected, save one, were European or South American. While it's undeniably true that soccer in the other continents has made enormous strides in recent decades, the vast bulk of the game's glorious history resides in these two parts of the world. The only two players I would expect to appear in any all-time list that weren't from either continent are Eusebio and Hugo Sanchez (I suppose if we got far enough down the list of goalkeepers someone may have considered Carbajal, but that's a stretch).

What did surprise me regarding geographical distribution is the fact that, aside from Yashin, the only Eastern Europeans taken were the Magic Magyars. Czech legend Josef Masopust, as well as Polish greats Grzegorz Lato, Zbigniew Boniek, Jan Tomaszewski, and Kazimierz Deyna were worth a look, as well as a number of players from the former USSR and Yugoslavian countries.

[Spartak]

Most shocking of all in my opinion in terms of national teams drawn upon, though, is the fact that not a single Italian striker was taken. While it's not surprising that the majority of the Italians taken were defenders, I still find it unbelievable that of roughly 33 strikers chosen, not one wore the famous blue shirt, particularly considering that there are at least two of the Azzurri that belong in the top 20 of all-time strikers (Roberto Baggio and Paolo Rossi).
Well, IMO, Baggio and Rossi didn't derserve to be in this draft. They were great players but they sort of had flashes of brillience and nothing consistent. The one Italian striker that should definately be in this draft is Giuseppe Meazza. But he played in the 30's and most drafters overlooked anything they don't have footage of.

[tpmazembe]

My take on the draft as a whole:

It seems like what many consider to be the great all-time club teams are very well represented: the Real Madrid side of the 50's, AC Milan of the early 90's, and Ajax and Bayern Munich of the 70's all have had at least three players each selected from them, and even the current Real Madrid side provided a good supply for an all-time draft.

The only noticeable omission in terms of the all-time great clubs was the fact that - I think - not a single Liverpool player was chosen. I'm not sure what to attribute that to, but my guess would be that it was because the team's successes were due to two factors. First, the managerial geniuses of Bob Paisley and Bill Shankly, which don't play into a draft such as this. And second, a number of Liverpool's most influential players in those days were Scotsmen and Welshmen, whose reputations may have been curtailed by a lack of showings in international competition.

Equally well represented are the great all-time international sides. The Magic Magyars contributed a large number of players, as did all of Argentina and Brazil's World Cup-winning squads and most of Germany's (I don't think any of the '54 team was chosen, and Fritz Walter and Helmut Rahn are at least worth a look in my opinon). Somewhat surprising is the fact that only one member of Brazil 82's midfield was taken - while I didn't really expect anyone to pick Toninho Cerezo, it's still nonetheless unusual to see Socrates and Falcao teamless at the end.

Most shocking of all in my opinion in terms of national teams drawn upon, though, is the fact that not a single Italian striker was taken. While it's not surprising that the majority of the Italians taken were defenders, I still find it unbelievable that of roughly 33 strikers chosen, not one wore the famous blue shirt, particularly considering that there are at least two of the Azzurri that belong in the top 20 of all-time strikers (Roberto Baggio and Paolo Rossi).Nice synopsis overall C-Towner. However, there is another noticeable slight to another great club side .... Santos '60s.

It strikes me that :

One club in the discussion for Greatest Of All Time has exactly one representative - Santos / Pele

Coincidentally the national squad often mentioned as GOAT has exactly one representative - Brasil '70 / Pele

Bayern and W.Germany '70s are far far better represented than either side above. What conclusions can be made from this? Taken at face value, it implies that Pele's influence on the greatness of those sides has in fact been underestimated.....or it says that we can't remember very well prior to 74 !?!

[tpmazembe]

Well, IMO, Baggio and Rossi didn't derserve to be in this draft. They were great players but they sort of had flashes of brillience and nothing consistent. The one Italian striker that should definately be in this draft is Giuseppe Meazza. But he played in the 30's and most drafters overlooked anything they don't have footage of.Agree...mostly.

What are your thoughts on Mazzola and Gianni Rivera?

And finally, heresy of heresies, IMO Baggio at his best was as good as Zidane. Had he been born in a country that valued his offensive talents, rather than worry about strategic fit in a system he may have come out as pick. Rivera suffered from this as well at the national level, with the Azzurri reluctant to play him and Mazzola jointly.

[kopiteinkc]

Did anyone consider Jairzihno and Carlos Alberto from the Brazil 70 side?

As for Liverpool players from the 1970s and 1980s, the comment about their poor showing on the International stage or even more importantly not being picked by the national team manager makes it tough as many managers compared WC records which is a little false.

Graeme Souness springs to mind, a brilliant two way midfield player who found it difficult to break into the Scotland team because of managerial selection. But absolutely dominated in Liverpool's run to the European Cup in 1984.

Kenny Dalglish is another Scot who deserves mention, he was picked many times for Scotland butp layed in a relatively weak national team and received poor support from other palyers around him at the level. Though his superb goal against Belgium and a nutmeg of Clemence against England are vivid memories of mine.

Kevin Keegan was injured at his prime and couldn't prove himself on the International stage as such. But his performance against Berti Vogts in the 1977 European Cup Final and his subsequent career at Hamburg showed he had World Class ability.

In the back, the best defender to play for Liverpool in that time period was Alan Hansen, but his awful mistake for Scotland in the World Cup counts him out. Those errors on the world stage are too hard to forgive.

John Barnes only really lit it up once or twice at the International level with a superb solo goal away to Brazxil in a friendly and provided the cross for Lineker against Argentina after coming on as sub.

Which leaves me with two players not from Liverpool to propose as subs for any of the teams:

Gary Lineker and Duncan Edwards.

Lineker proved himself domestically and internationally and would be a great asset to any of the teams proposed here.

Bobby Charlton said himself that Duncan Edwards is the best player he has ever seen play, still today. Having his versality on the bench would be excellent.

[kopiteinkc]

Oh, one more thought, if your team is a goal down and you need to equalize you couldn't do better than have Dixie Dean on the bench :D

[argentine soccer fan]

Agree...mostly.

What are your thoughts on Mazzola and Gianni Rivera?


Alessandro Mazzola or his father Valentino Mazzola? Some say the father, who was a victim of the air tragedy along with his Torino teammates, was the better player. But they both excelled.

Of all the Italian players mentioned, (other than Meazza who is one of a number of legendary players from the pre-war era which we overlooked), I think the 'Bambino d'oro', Rivera is the one who most deserves being in our tournament. Many Italians say he was the most creative and inventive player to ever come out of their country.

And what do you guys think about Bruno Conti? He practically reinvented the winger position in Italy. Well, if Bauser ever picks his subs, maybe he'll consider some of these guys.

[argentine soccer fan]

One club in the discussion for Greatest Of All Time has exactly one representative - Santos / Pele


Which players from Santos do you think should have been considered?

I wonder, for example, how good was Coutinho and how much his success depended on his partnership with Pele? And how about Pepe?

I'd think that players like Jairzinho or Tostao, who also were not picked, would probably be ranked ahead of them by most Brazilians. We were thinking of Jairzinho for our bench, but I guess we just couldn't pass up on a 'sleeper' pick like 'Zarra'.